Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 730275 times)

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Offline sandra L

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The "original wording" of Shane's statement was not as it has been posted here. Indeed, the whole watching porn thing did not even arise until April 2004, so it couldn't possibly have been mentioned in any of the original statements.

Shane's first statement was pretty straightforward - it was just an ordinary evening until he heard Jodi was missing, and then within a couple of hours, that she was dead. He had no recollection of the earlier part of the evening - nothing unusual had happened, so nothing stood out for him. Initially, he said that Luke had "probably" been in, because Luke cooked the dinner, so Shane assumed he would have done so on the Monday evening - he just couldn't remember anything about it. He had forgotten that was the evening he had stopped of at a friend's on the way home from work - it was the police who reminded him when they were questioning various phone calls Shane had made from his mobile phone on the Monday evening. There was never, ever, any suggestion that it was "sinister" that Shane had forgotten this visit, yet when Corinne reminded him that there had been something that made Monday's dinner memorable - Luke had burned it - this was claimed to be a "change of story."

The police questioning of Shane was in the same vein as the questioning of Luke - the questioning that three appeal court judges called "outrageous and to be deplored" - I have seen the interviews, and Shane was hauled from pillar to post by officers who had no interest in his answers, they just wanted to have him on record saying certain things. One officer repeatedly tells him "I'm not accepting can't remember, that won't do, you'll have to do better than that." How can anyone "do better than that" if the honest answer is "I don't remember." Shane did not say, in any of those early interviews, that Luke was "not in." Nor did he say that he "did not see Luke." He said, over and over again, that he could not remember any specifics about that evening, including if he'd seen Luke, or where he'd seen him in the house.

The whole humiliation of having him admit to masturbating was done at trial - that had been part of any of the earlier interviews - the interrogation of April 2004 covered the fact that they had "found out" he had been "looking at porn sites" - and whether he worried whether anyone would come into his room when he was doing so. Alan Turnbull QC took it to a whole new level, to utterly humiliate the witness and destroy his credibility.

Offline gordo30

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I guess your right mat this should be your que to stop posting as its pretty obvious from early on you knew nothing of what you spoke off, except of course your confidence in regards to Lukes guilt.


Offline grahameb

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Firstly, an apology - I have very little time at the moment to read forums or post, so i won't be able to join in the debate for a number of weeks.

However, there are a couple of things I can clarify from what I have read today. Firstly, the photograph of Luke which has been posted here was taken on August 14th 2003 (six weeks after the murder) in Dalkeith Police Station at 8am. It was placed in a spread of 11 other pictures that morning, and all 12 were taken to AB that day for her to "identify" Luke. Those events have been severely criticised by Roy Ramm and John Scott, John Scott commenting that they didn't have an arrow pointing to Luke Mitchell, but they might as well have done, because Luke's picture stood out so much. Having seen the other 11 pictures, I agree completely - the others were of much younger children, the hair- styles, although all similar to each other (close cropped), were very different to Luke's. All of the other backgrounds were "rooms" of some description, Luke's was a polaroid style with a white band across the top, and very little background detail.

This photograph was not, as has been claimed, taken when Luke was arrested in April 2004 - the "identification" by AB from that photograph was made on August 14th, six weeks after the murder, and the day before pictures of Luke began to appear in newspapers.. However, the picture of Luke did not match the descriptions AB gave to the police in her first two statements in July 2003, right after the murder. she was describing someone completely different - late teens, early twenties, brown, thick, messy hair, some of it sticking up at the back, wearing "fishing gear" with the same colour jacket and trousers. She said in both of those early statements that she would only recognise him again by his clothing and hair as she had not seen his face.

Fleming and Walsh's statements are so far removed from "descriptions" of Luke, it is surprising that they were ever actually used as witnesses. Both said, in their initial statements, that the youth had dark hair, both said they didn't see his face, one had him wearing jeans - definitely, categorically not baggies, because she would have noticed that, their descriptions of his jacket differed from each other, and neither could say what he was wearing under the jacket, although they weren't sure if the jacket was zipped up or open. By the time it got to court, one stated she would never forget his eyes (which, according to her statements, she had never seen), they described a black t shirt with writing on it (which neither had mentioned in their statements), and, at one point, one of them was pulled up in court for using the exact phrase the other had given in evidence the day before - a phrase which had never appeared in any of their statements (the obvious point being that they were discussing their evidence).

These witnesses were shown newspaper photographs of Luke by police investigators, apparently becuase they had claimed to recognise Luke from newspaper photographs prior to August 15th (before which there had been no newspaper pictures of Luke).

Other witnesses have since come forward to say that one of them told work colleagues that the youth she had seen was at the entrance to Newbattle Abbey College (which was the opposite side of the road to where Luke had been standing waiting for Jodi before crossing over to the Abbey) - she never mentioned to any of them, at any time, the youth being at the broken gate near to the end of Roan's Dyke path. They were unable, in their statements, to decide what time they had been on the Newbattle Road, and claimed to have seen a jogger at the same time as they saw the youth - the jogger was, they said, 200 yards ahead. Had the youth been at the broken gate, that was impossible, as the road goes into a series of sweeping bends - it would be impossible to see anyone 200 years up ahead, because of those bends.

The inscription on the knife pouch is not on the website because I had a limited amount of time to get the info for the website together, no other reason. I haven't had a chance to properly update the website, due to other commitments, but I will do so when I get the chance.

It is an offence in Scotland to make public many documents relating to a criminal case, so I am restricted in law as to what I can post from transcripts, statements, etc. I have tried to post as much as I thought I could, without crossing over any legal lines - it's sometimes a difficult judgement call.

Someone commented that they wre "not impressed" with me - that's ok, I'm not doing this to impress anyone, I do what I do because innocent people are being jailed for crimes they did not commit, and that could happen to any one of us, including me and my family. Doing something just because it's the right thing to do doesn't seem to be particularly popular - people are always looking for ulterior motives - for the record, I have none - being involved in MoJs has cost me greatly over the years, in many different ways, but I do not regret getting involved. I understand that people will believe whatever they want to believe - the way I see it, I can put the information out there, and people can do as they please with it. If it's not out there, then people don't know about it, so they can't discuss it, and - far more importantly - they are not forewarned that this could happen to them.
Dr. Lean I think that you have studied this case in depth and are therefore qualified and very able to write about it. Take no notice of those little tyros who know nothing much and believe nothing but the light that somehow filters down through the chinks in their own roofs. As for me together with every other person who has at least some reasoning power in their heads I will rather trust and believe you rather than some Mr nobody whose esteem goes only as far as his own back garden.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 06:13:PM by grahame »

Offline sandra L

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Thanks, Grahame, it's been over 9 years now - I couldn't tell you how many pages of documents, conversations with lawyers, experts, etc. I think the fact that so many high profile people were willing to appear in the Frontline documentary (Tim Valentine, Roy Ramm, John Scott, to name just a few), speaks volumes - it's not just "my opinion" (even though everything I post comes from the case files) - these are highly trained experts who have all expressed real misgivings about the conviction. Also, the fact that a top legal professional helped with the SCCRC application, behind the scenes, and pro bono - these people wouldn't risk their professional credibility unless they were pretty sure they had their facts right!

For almost all of those 9 years, there have been people who come wading in with "I know he's guilty because..." and then can't finish the sentence because the so called facts on which they are basing their opinions are all wrong - and I can prove them to be so.

I think it's great the case is being discussed here - it's just a pity I don't have enough time to post more often - I'll pop by when I can, and try to catch up as I go along.

guest154

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Dr. Lean I think that you have studied this case in depth and are therefore qualified and very able to write about it. Take no notice of those little tyros who know nothing much and believe nothing but the light that somehow filters down through the chinks in their own roofs. As for me together with every other person who has at least some reasoning power in their heads I will rather trust and believe you rather than some Mr nobody whose esteem goes only as far as his own back garden.

There is only one tyro here Grahame - Mr Back Seat Mod.  ;)



Thanks, Grahame, it's been over 9 years now - I couldn't tell you how many pages of documents, conversations with lawyers, experts, etc. I think the fact that so many high profile people were willing to appear in the Frontline documentary (Tim Valentine, Roy Ramm, John Scott, to name just a few), speaks volumes - it's not just "my opinion" (even though everything I post comes from the case files) - these are highly trained experts who have all expressed real misgivings about the conviction. Also, the fact that a top legal professional helped with the SCCRC application, behind the scenes, and pro bono - these people wouldn't risk their professional credibility unless they were pretty sure they had their facts right!

For almost all of those 9 years, there have been people who come wading in with "I know he's guilty because..." and then can't finish the sentence because the so called facts on which they are basing their opinions are all wrong - and I can prove them to be so.

I think it's great the case is being discussed here - it's just a pity I don't have enough time to post more often - I'll pop by when I can, and try to catch up as I go along.


Whilst you're talking about credibility......
Just an idea. But if you need more time - maybe drop some cases? Working on too many cases can lead to mistakes or lead to you promoting the wrong cases. Such as that as Adrian Prout which I believe to be a huge stain on your own credibility.

Offline nugnug

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    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
yes and the prout case proved te realibility of lie detectors witch of course and Corrine both passed.

guest154

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I'm not about to get into a debate regarding 'lie detectors' if they were at all reliable they would be in courts.

But they're not allowed.

Offline nugnug

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    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
there allowed when they are deciding to release people.

Neil

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Mat, what is your motivation for posting on this case?  I can understand the motives of someone arguing on a not guilty stance, which is quite obvious of course.  I find it particularly perplexing, as you readily admit that you know very little about the case and have had to resort to enlisting John Lambertons assistance in forming your posts.  No offence intended.

Neil

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Thanks, Grahame, it's been over 9 years now - I couldn't tell you how many pages of documents, conversations with lawyers, experts, etc. I think the fact that so many high profile people were willing to appear in the Frontline documentary (Tim Valentine, Roy Ramm, John Scott, to name just a few), speaks volumes - it's not just "my opinion" (even though everything I post comes from the case files) - these are highly trained experts who have all expressed real misgivings about the conviction. Also, the fact that a top legal professional helped with the SCCRC application, behind the scenes, and pro bono - these people wouldn't risk their professional credibility unless they were pretty sure they had their facts right!

For almost all of those 9 years, there have been people who come wading in with "I know he's guilty because..." and then can't finish the sentence because the so called facts on which they are basing their opinions are all wrong - and I can prove them to be so.


I think it's great the case is being discussed here - it's just a pity I don't have enough time to post more often - I'll pop by when I can, and try to catch up as I go along.

Hello Sandra,

Whether I believe that you're right in your assertion that Luke is innocent, is neither here nor there.  The mere fact that there are people like you, who are prepared to make personal sacrifices and fight on behalf of others, makes the world a better place. 

Neil

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The "original wording" of Shane's statement was not as it has been posted here. Indeed, the whole watching porn thing did not even arise until April 2004, so it couldn't possibly have been mentioned in any of the original statements.

Shane's first statement was pretty straightforward - it was just an ordinary evening until he heard Jodi was missing, and then within a couple of hours, that she was dead. He had no recollection of the earlier part of the evening - nothing unusual had happened, so nothing stood out for him. Initially, he said that Luke had "probably" been in, because Luke cooked the dinner, so Shane assumed he would have done so on the Monday evening - he just couldn't remember anything about it. He had forgotten that was the evening he had stopped of at a friend's on the way home from work - it was the police who reminded him when they were questioning various phone calls Shane had made from his mobile phone on the Monday evening. There was never, ever, any suggestion that it was "sinister" that Shane had forgotten this visit, yet when Corinne reminded him that there had been something that made Monday's dinner memorable - Luke had burned it - this was claimed to be a "change of story."

The police questioning of Shane was in the same vein as the questioning of Luke - the questioning that three appeal court judges called "outrageous and to be deplored" - I have seen the interviews, and Shane was hauled from pillar to post by officers who had no interest in his answers, they just wanted to have him on record saying certain things. One officer repeatedly tells him "I'm not accepting can't remember, that won't do, you'll have to do better than that." How can anyone "do better than that" if the honest answer is "I don't remember." Shane did not say, in any of those early interviews, that Luke was "not in." Nor did he say that he "did not see Luke." He said, over and over again, that he could not remember any specifics about that evening, including if he'd seen Luke, or where he'd seen him in the house.

The whole humiliation of having him admit to masturbating was done at trial - that had been part of any of the earlier interviews - the interrogation of April 2004 covered the fact that they had "found out" he had been "looking at porn sites" - and whether he worried whether anyone would come into his room when he was doing so. Alan Turnbull QC took it to a whole new level, to utterly humiliate the witness and destroy his credibility.
How long after the murder did Shane make his first statement?
I think that even after a few days, most of us would struggle to recount the events of a particular day, in minute detail. 

guest154

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Mat, what is your motivation for posting on this case?  I can understand the motives of someone arguing on a not guilty stance, which is quite obvious of course.  I find it particularly perplexing, as you readily admit that you know very little about the case and have had to resort to enlisting John Lambertons assistance in forming your posts.  No offence intended.

I don't have a motivation - other than express opinion, listen to opinions, seek more information. Which I think is the aim for forums - no one can join and know everything about any case. I'm sure you yourself have learned alot more about the Jeremy Bamber case since joining this forum.

As for enlisting John's help? I asked for his opinion on certain aspects of the case. I posting long before I asked him about the case.

Offline OnceSaid

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were did you get that from could you post the link please.

Mat got it from Lambertons forum,  his quote is in amongst the rest of the drivel in the post ;D


Posted by John
Re: Why was Luke not seen after school?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 05:12:29 AM »Quote I now know why Sandra Lean and Corinne Mitchell failed to identify this 5-bar wooden gate but that will remain my secret for the moment.


For those readers who are new to the forum I can tell you that a youth matching Mitchell's description was seen by two passers-by in a car at this gate a few minutes after Jodi's murder.  Mrs Walsh and Mrs Fleming were most insistent that the youth they had seen that day was indeed Mitchell.

Offline OnceSaid

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The more I read..


"youth matching Mitchell's description was seen by two passers-by in a car at this gate a few minutes after Jodi's murder.  Mrs Walsh and Mrs Fleming were most insistent that the youth they had seen that day was indeed Mitchell.

They identified Mitchell in court as being this person.

One has to ask the question, how many other lads with shoulder-length hair wearing a green Bomber jacket with orange lining were out on this part of Newbattle road at 5.40pm that afternoon."

This is from Lambertons forum Mat.  If you are interested in the case why would you not read his official site and quote from there or question what has been said there?

Offline OnceSaid

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Thank god fot that.
I don't think that mitchel is guilty. DNA points me in another direction.
I think the fact that his brother was galloping his maggot at the time was enough to deny that he had seen Luke.
The fact that there was no DNA sets alarm bells ringing.
There really is not a lot to link Luke to this murder.

Hi Buddy, my reply was to Rhodes as he claimed that it was down to luck that Luke and his mother passed the polygraph test.