Author Topic: The breaking of the rifle stock  (Read 7341 times)

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Offline Jan

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2014, 04:44:PM »
grahame

do you remember something about the hatch being open that lead up on to the roof? Or am I imagining reading that ?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2014, 06:11:PM »
With all due respect what you said would have strengthened Jeremy's argument. It would make no sense whatsoever for a guilty man who was supposed to know he used the silencer and that there was blood inside it that could be tested to want any kind of investigation that would confirm his guilt. What you are saying is just more verbal diarrhea. You need to eat more charcoal.

NO what I said makes perfect sense and in fact there have been DNA tests performed at the request of defendants which have ended up proving guilt.  Criminals serving a lengthy sentence having nothing to lose and HOPE that DNA that implicates them will not be found.  They are going to rot in jail without the test so want the test in hopes to find something to latch onto to argue they are innocent.

Tests done by the defense in 1986 found only microscopic drops of blood that the defense expert removed.  Test done by the defense in 1999 proved no blood was left in the rifle the last of it had been removed by the defense expert in 1986.  Therefore there would be no expectation of finding Sheila's DNA in the suppressor and of course he would welcome a DNA test of the suppressor.

Then he could claim her blood was never there which is exactly what he claimed but the court saw right through it and pointed out that what mattered was a DNA test of the blood that was removed and had been determined to be group A.  That is the issue whether that specific blood was Sheila's or not.

 
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2014, 06:51:PM »
Again with all due respect the problem with circumstantial evidence is that it can often be twisted. The problem of course with those prosecution witnesses was that most of them had an interest in seeing the accused convicted of the crime. They would naturally corroberate each others words. And I suggest that that is just what they did. JM had a bone to pick with Jeremy for his unfaithfulness and the extended family were in danger of losing everything if he was found not guilty. I wonder what David Boutflour meant when he said to his sister, "I have something up my sleeve"?
The whole family knew how to get in and out of WHF. They had plenty of opportunity (not saying they did of course) to get into the house the night before they were given the keys and to plants anything they wanted. Next day, "Ooh look. This MUST be the silencer?" You mean there were no ther silencers on the property? With blood conveniently dripping out of it like jam. Too convenient.

Circumstantial evidence is just as reliable as direct evidence.

Saying hey maybe the suppressor evidence was planted is not enough.  You need to establish there is a reasonable likelihood the evidence in the suppressor was planted.  Of course yo uhave no such evidenc ejust wild suspicions that are meaningless in the eyes of the law and to anyone with common sense and capable of objective rational reasoning.

The family had no way of knowing about drawback and that Sheila's fatal wound definitely resulted in drawback.  Nor did they have a way to know her blood type or to have access to her blood.  Tossing bloody clothing in water and blood being diluted in water doesn't provide someone with blood to plant in a suppressor.

If the family knew all about drawback and the natre of her fatal wound then they woudl know the rifle itself would have her blood in it and this woudl not have been possible with the suppressor in place so would help prove it wasn't attached during the murders no matter what they plant in the suppressor.

Even if they had found a bag of her blood in a fridge that was being saved by her in case she needed a transfusion and they had wanted to plant it they would have no way of knowing if her blood matched the blood of any other victims or not and thus weather the blood could be tied specifically to her.  moreover they would have no idea that they needed to spray the blood inside let alone know what tool they could use to accomplish it.  The average person trying to plant blood uses a dropper or tiny via and pours it. 

There is nothing at all to indicate it was reasonably likely the family could, would or did plant the blood in the suppressor.

Likewise there is nothing to indicate the lab planted the blood and found blood in the rifle and concealed it.

Your claims in such regard are irrational, unsupported claims.  You need proof but have none.

You can be as irrational as you like in constructing your opinion.  You decided early on that you will never believe Jeremy was capable and did it just because people told you he wouldn't and you don't like police.  So you have decided to ignore all evidence of guil and any excuse necessary to pretend he is innocent is fine.   

in the real world proof and evidence are king.  Sheila was shot then bled down her shoulder and arm.  This indicates she was shot while seated propped up against something.  If she were not propped up against somethign she would have immediately fell back and been lying flat and would not have been able to bleed vertically down her shoulder and arm.  Someone moved her flat after she died but while she was still bleeding because after being placed flat the blood flowed down the side of her neck onto the floor. The bible was in the pool of blood that formed after she was dead then was opened and closed before the blood dried.  She can't have done that so this is additional evidence someone was there after she was dead.  The suppressor is part of a triad of evidence that someone else killed Sheila.

Not only didn't Sheila kill herself, it is obvious she didn't kill anyone else.  She had no foreign blood, no GSR, no elevated lead levels on her hands and no damage to her hands as would have occurred during the struggle with Nevill. So no evidence she loaded a gun, fired a gun, beat Nevill or even was near anyone else when they were shot (because high velocity spatter indicates being near a victim not necessarily being the shooter) when they died.

Based on all this evidence the same person who killed her killed the others, she didn't kill anyone before being killed herself.  This evidence is not unreliable it is strong sound evidence.  You need to prove it is unreliable just saying it is because you want desperately to believe Jeremy is innocent doesn't make it so.  You can't though, everyone on this site has failed miserably at establishing the evidence is unreliable and many have even distorted tremendously to try to pretend it is.

The evidence proves that Sheila was framed and did nothing, who is the person who did it then?  Well who framed her, that is who did it.  Jeremy is the one who framed her with his fake call from Nevill, fake claims he left the rifle and bullets out (including stagign too many rounds in the kitchen for such ammunition to have been the source) , outright lies that she fired every weapon in the house etc.

Jeremy's own actions including constantly telling Julie about how he wanted them dead and his plans totally gave away that he is the one who framed Sheila.   

The evidence is solid so many distortions are posted here with bogus claims of evidence that 2 different rifles were used and much more.  When such lies and distortions are resorted to that means the evidence is solid because the real evidence can't be disputed by legitimate means.

Peopel outside of this site find it hard to take anyone here serious since the theories change by the hour of what supposedly happened.  The same people are simultaneously arguing there were 2 guns, police shot victims, Juen and Sheila did it together, the blood and paint was planted, there were 3 suppressors, there were...

What this signals is an effort to just throw as much shit at the wall as possible hoping that base don sheer volume that some of it will stick.  That is resorted to when one has no actual proof to use to attack the evidence used to convict.





 

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Offline grahameb

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2014, 06:56:PM »
NO what I said makes perfect sense and in fact there have been DNA tests performed at the request of defendants which have ended up proving guilt.  Criminals serving a lengthy sentence having nothing to lose and HOPE that DNA that implicates them will not be found.  They are going to rot in jail without the test so want the test in hopes to find something to latch onto to argue they are innocent.

Tests done by the defense in 1986 found only microscopic drops of blood that the defense expert removed.  Test done by the defense in 1999 proved no blood was left in the rifle the last of it had been removed by the defense expert in 1986.  Therefore there would be no expectation of finding Sheila's DNA in the suppressor and of course he would welcome a DNA test of the suppressor.

Then he could claim her blood was never there which is exactly what he claimed but the court saw right through it and pointed out that what mattered was a DNA test of the blood that was removed and had been determined to be group A.  That is the issue whether that specific blood was Sheila's or not.

 
It has always been my understanding that the dna tests were inconclusive?
I also thought that the pull through of the rifle was done after the superglue test?
Not only that I was of the opinion that the dna tests were carried out before the whole life tariff was imposed?

Offline grahameb

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2014, 07:18:PM »
Circumstantial evidence is just as reliable as direct evidence.

Saying hey maybe the suppressor evidence was planted is not enough.  You need to establish there is a reasonable likelihood the evidence in the suppressor was planted.  Of course yo uhave no such evidenc ejust wild suspicions that are meaningless in the eyes of the law and to anyone with common sense and capable of objective rational reasoning.

The family had no way of knowing about drawback and that Sheila's fatal wound definitely resulted in drawback.  Nor did they have a way to know her blood type or to have access to her blood.  Tossing bloody clothing in water and blood being diluted in water doesn't provide someone with blood to plant in a suppressor.

If the family knew all about drawback and the natre of her fatal wound then they woudl know the rifle itself would have her blood in it and this woudl not have been possible with the suppressor in place so would help prove it wasn't attached during the murders no matter what they plant in the suppressor.

Even if they had found a bag of her blood in a fridge that was being saved by her in case she needed a transfusion and they had wanted to plant it they would have no way of knowing if her blood matched the blood of any other victims or not and thus weather the blood could be tied specifically to her.  moreover they would have no idea that they needed to spray the blood inside let alone know what tool they could use to accomplish it.  The average person trying to plant blood uses a dropper or tiny via and pours it. 

There is nothing at all to indicate it was reasonably likely the family could, would or did plant the blood in the suppressor.

Likewise there is nothing to indicate the lab planted the blood and found blood in the rifle and concealed it.

Your claims in such regard are irrational, unsupported claims.  You need proof but have none.

You can be as irrational as you like in constructing your opinion.  You decided early on that you will never believe Jeremy was capable and did it just because people told you he wouldn't and you don't like police.  So you have decided to ignore all evidence of guil and any excuse necessary to pretend he is innocent is fine.   

in the real world proof and evidence are king.  Sheila was shot then bled down her shoulder and arm.  This indicates she was shot while seated propped up against something.  If she were not propped up against somethign she would have immediately fell back and been lying flat and would not have been able to bleed vertically down her shoulder and arm.  Someone moved her flat after she died but while she was still bleeding because after being placed flat the blood flowed down the side of her neck onto the floor. The bible was in the pool of blood that formed after she was dead then was opened and closed before the blood dried.  She can't have done that so this is additional evidence someone was there after she was dead.  The suppressor is part of a triad of evidence that someone else killed Sheila.

Not only didn't Sheila kill herself, it is obvious she didn't kill anyone else.  She had no foreign blood, no GSR, no elevated lead levels on her hands and no damage to her hands as would have occurred during the struggle with Nevill. So no evidence she loaded a gun, fired a gun, beat Nevill or even was near anyone else when they were shot (because high velocity spatter indicates being near a victim not necessarily being the shooter) when they died.

Based on all this evidence the same person who killed her killed the others, she didn't kill anyone before being killed herself.  This evidence is not unreliable it is strong sound evidence.  You need to prove it is unreliable just saying it is because you want desperately to believe Jeremy is innocent doesn't make it so.  You can't though, everyone on this site has failed miserably at establishing the evidence is unreliable and many have even distorted tremendously to try to pretend it is.

The evidence proves that Sheila was framed and did nothing, who is the person who did it then?  Well who framed her, that is who did it.  Jeremy is the one who framed her with his fake call from Nevill, fake claims he left the rifle and bullets out (including stagign too many rounds in the kitchen for such ammunition to have been the source) , outright lies that she fired every weapon in the house etc.

Jeremy's own actions including constantly telling Julie about how he wanted them dead and his plans totally gave away that he is the one who framed Sheila.   

The evidence is solid so many distortions are posted here with bogus claims of evidence that 2 different rifles were used and much more.  When such lies and distortions are resorted to that means the evidence is solid because the real evidence can't be disputed by legitimate means.

Peopel outside of this site find it hard to take anyone here serious since the theories change by the hour of what supposedly happened.  The same people are simultaneously arguing there were 2 guns, police shot victims, Juen and Sheila did it together, the blood and paint was planted, there were 3 suppressors, there were...

What this signals is an effort to just throw as much shit at the wall as possible hoping that base don sheer volume that some of it will stick.  That is resorted to when one has no actual proof to use to attack the evidence used to convict.





 
I think you will find that my suggestion that the silencer was planted is quite a reasonable one. You ask for proof? Well of course I don't. You rightly said that it is only a suggestion. But it is also a logical suggestion for relatives to plant the silencer as they had motive to do so. David Bamber said he had something up his sleeve. They have opportunity to do so and also the motive to do so. They accused him right from the beginning.
But if I may also point out the court had no real evidence that the silencer was found and not planted. In spite of it being removed from the scene (allegedly) there is no real evidence except the word of the relatives, who had motive to lie and to want Jeremy out of the way as a not guilty verdict would prove disasterous for each of them. I just simply cannot accept that the silencer was accepted as evidence against Jeremy. What fool allowed that to happen? It was a total travesty of the truth.

By the way I never suggested that two rifles were ever used. I explored the notion, but rejected the idea and agreed that only one rifle was used and not the Pargeter rifle.

And please don't call me a Jeremy supporter. If I believed he actually did this monstrous thing then there is no way I would support him. The fact is I just cannot see how anyone can agree that he had a fair trial. What you see as evidence I see as a lie. Who you see as angels I see liars.

Also I still contend that if you know about splashback then so did the relatives. They are very knowledgeable regarding these things. But as you correctly assert I only have my suspicions. But they are suspicions that are equal to your "circumstancial" evidence

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2014, 03:02:AM »
It has always been my understanding that the dna tests were inconclusive?
I also thought that the pull through of the rifle was done after the superglue test?
Not only that I was of the opinion that the dna tests were carried out before the whole life tariff was imposed?

1) The DNA tests were inconclusive in the sense they were worthless from the outset.

The prosecution argued and proved to the satisfaction of the jury that that the blood TESTED by the police was Sheila's.  The only way DNA could be used to prove it wasn't is to do a DNA test of that exact blood.  The blood typing tests used in 1985 destroy DNA so the chance of successfully developing a DNA profile from such blood would be nil but such blood was not retained so there was no chance to even try.

The prosecution removed all visible blood and the defense removed the microscopic blood from the suppressor.  IF there had been any blood that both missed and it were successsfully typed all that would prove is whose blood it was that they missed.  It would not answer the question of whose blood the blood removed belonged to. 

At any rate there was no blood left in the suppressor.  In 1999 it was tested and determined not to contain anymore blood.  So any DNA found coudl not be blood based and could not prove the donor's blood had been in the suppressor.  So what value was the test?  It was worthless.

The test found DNA from Sheila, June and an incomplete profile from an unknown donor.  The incomplete profile only resulted in a few markers being detected.  17 markers were detected for Sheila so enough to say it was her DNA and June's complete profile was found.  The DNA was not blood based so by definition could not prove June and Sheila's blood were present or would have been rather bad for the defense.   Finding June's blood would not have been too great anyway because the notion Sheila put the suppressor away after using it on everyone else is not very believable.

So while everyone likes to talk about DNA and DNA tests in this particular case it can't offer any help.  The only blood that matters was not saved so can't be tested and would not have likely had any DNA remaining after the typing tests anyway.

------
2) Superglue fuming doesn't inhibit testing of blood for DNA or determing blood type.  It can inhibit DNA testing of saliva and semen so often can't be used in rape cases until after semen and saliva are tested.

So if blood had been in the barrel of the rifle it still would have been in there to be found by the technician.  Blood in a barrel can only be removed by someone who cleans it using rifle cleaning tools.

 

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Offline grahameb

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2014, 10:34:AM »
1) The DNA tests were inconclusive in the sense they were worthless from the outset.

The prosecution argued and proved to the satisfaction of the jury that that the blood TESTED by the police was Sheila's.  The only way DNA could be used to prove it wasn't is to do a DNA test of that exact blood.  The blood typing tests used in 1985 destroy DNA so the chance of successfully developing a DNA profile from such blood would be nil but such blood was not retained so there was no chance to even try.

The prosecution removed all visible blood and the defense removed the microscopic blood from the suppressor.  IF there had been any blood that both missed and it were successsfully typed all that would prove is whose blood it was that they missed.  It would not answer the question of whose blood the blood removed belonged to. 

At any rate there was no blood left in the suppressor.  In 1999 it was tested and determined not to contain anymore blood.  So any DNA found coudl not be blood based and could not prove the donor's blood had been in the suppressor.  So what value was the test?  It was worthless.

The test found DNA from Sheila, June and an incomplete profile from an unknown donor.  The incomplete profile only resulted in a few markers being detected.  17 markers were detected for Sheila so enough to say it was her DNA and June's complete profile was found.  The DNA was not blood based so by definition could not prove June and Sheila's blood were present or would have been rather bad for the defense.   Finding June's blood would not have been too great anyway because the notion Sheila put the suppressor away after using it on everyone else is not very believable.

So while everyone likes to talk about DNA and DNA tests in this particular case it can't offer any help.  The only blood that matters was not saved so can't be tested and would not have likely had any DNA remaining after the typing tests anyway.

------
2) Superglue fuming doesn't inhibit testing of blood for DNA or determing blood type.  It can inhibit DNA testing of saliva and semen so often can't be used in rape cases until after semen and saliva are tested.

So if blood had been in the barrel of the rifle it still would have been in there to be found by the technician.  Blood in a barrel can only be removed by someone who cleans it using rifle cleaning tools.
I was under the impression that the barrel was superglue treated before the pullthough was done. And that this would have eliminated any trace of blood?

Offline grahameb

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2014, 10:38:AM »
grahame

do you remember something about the hatch being open that lead up on to the roof? Or am I imagining reading that ?
I'm not sure? But Jeremy complained about some pictures of the police officers "horsing around" at the farm (a strange thing to do at a crime scene) and one of those pictures was of one officer outside the skylight hatch waving a banner of some sort. But I would have thought that if the catch was on the inside then anyone could get access to the roof?

Offline lookout

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2014, 10:56:AM »
 Who were the firearms officers talking to if everyone was supposedly dead ?

 M.Bonnetts' log states---

@04.58. Firearms and dog unit at scene.
@05.25. Firearms team are in conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse.
@05.29 CA7 challenge to person/s inside house met with no response.
 

Offline grahameb

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2014, 01:03:PM »
Who were the firearms officers talking to if everyone was supposedly dead ?

 M.Bonnetts' log states---

@04.58. Firearms and dog unit at scene.
@05.25. Firearms team are in conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse.
@05.29 CA7 challenge to person/s inside house met with no response.
 
The interesting thing here though is that they apparently talked to no one for two whole hours.

Offline lookout

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2014, 01:07:PM »
The interesting thing here though is that they apparently talked to no one for two whole hours.






Impossible,Grahame-----------for 2 hours ? Who'd believe that ? Jeremy outside building his hopes up,hence his calmness as everyone keeps talking about !

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2014, 09:59:PM »
I was under the impression that the barrel was superglue treated before the pullthough was done. And that this would have eliminated any trace of blood?

No superglue fuming doesn't eliminate blood nor does it damage blood so that it can no longer be used for serological testong or DNA testing.  Superglue fuming has no impact on blood at all.

 
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Offline grahameb

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2014, 10:05:PM »
No superglue fuming doesn't eliminate blood nor does it damage blood so that it can no longer be used for serological testong or DNA testing.  Superglue fuming has no impact on blood at all.
So what is the purpose of superglue fuming?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2014, 10:41:PM »
So what is the purpose of superglue fuming?

To detect latent fingerprints, a latent print is one not visible to the naked eye.  The glue adheres to oils secreted by humans, sweat or foreign substances that might have been on a hand when it touched the object).  The glue thus provides the fingerprint ridge detail necessary to be able to both see the ridge detail and to photograph it.  You can keep the photos for use to make comparisons to fingerprint records.

Since latent prints are not visible to the naked eye it means you never know if an object has a latent print(s) or not. Superglue fuming is great because instea do f brekaing your ass dusting every square inch with powder you simply stick it in a chmaber where the superglue vapors are exposed to the entire item.  When when it is done you just look it over to see if any prints are now visible to the naked eye.

Moreover, it will detect prints that powder often misses.

The gun and suppressor were thus super glue fumed to see if they contained any latent fingerprints.  3 partial prints were found on the rifle which lacked sufficient detail to be tied to anyone.  But one print ended up being Jeremy's and another was Sheila's ring finger.   



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Offline grahameb

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Re: The breaking of the rifle stock
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2014, 11:45:PM »
To detect latent fingerprints, a latent print is one not visible to the naked eye.  The glue adheres to oils secreted by humans, sweat or foreign substances that might have been on a hand when it touched the object).  The glue thus provides the fingerprint ridge detail necessary to be able to both see the ridge detail and to photograph it.  You can keep the photos for use to make comparisons to fingerprint records.

Since latent prints are not visible to the naked eye it means you never know if an object has a latent print(s) or not. Superglue fuming is great because instea do f brekaing your ass dusting every square inch with powder you simply stick it in a chmaber where the superglue vapors are exposed to the entire item.  When when it is done you just look it over to see if any prints are now visible to the naked eye.

Moreover, it will detect prints that powder often misses.

The gun and suppressor were thus super glue fumed to see if they contained any latent fingerprints.  3 partial prints were found on the rifle which lacked sufficient detail to be tied to anyone.  But one print ended up being Jeremy's and another was Sheila's ring finger.
Thank you scipio, that is very interesting. So this superglue vapor will have no effect upon any blood that may have been in the barrel of the gun?