why dident they go in.

[lookout]

 The broken rifle butt had to be done by a woman,using all her strength behind the bashing. A man being the stronger sex would have no need to use such force.

[Alias]

I've just got a picture of both women fighting to the finish,,both on the floor,one just about sitting half-propped up by the door,just feet away from her opponent who's lying down after the first shot ( delivered ) ,then the second fatal one. Which would see both women dying almost simultaneously.

Of the rifle-------I don't know,,because it looked as though it had been placed there,and if EP did that,then they got it wrong,,because I'd like to bet that the photographed " scene " WASN'T how it actually was.

I have a hard time seeing this having happened. The blood on their gowns contradict it, first of all. Why did you suddenly think that June was involved, there must have been something in particular that made you think that - just curious.

[lookout]

 I've thought long and hard about this since I came onto the forum,,first thinking it could be Sheila being so ill,,but she wasn't the only one who was ill in that household.

It wasn't all about Sheilas' illness,,but the way in which the girl was driven into her illness by her stern and overly strict mother whose behaviour had overshadowed any hope of normality as far as Sheila was concerned. Junes' screaming fits when she caught Sheila in the field,,then another " do " when the divorce was looming. The woman was hysterical.

There are so many facets to consider regarding the mental fragility of June and her lack of reasoning.

 Sheila was craving love and nobody understood her. Junes high expectations of Sheila hit rock bottom and June must have been mortified at the way things turned out,,but she only had herself to blame.

No wonder her and the twins dreaded going to WHF. Sheilas' loves of her life being forced to pray at every opportunity.This was NOT normal behaviour.

I would say that what clinched it for me was when I'd read something in Claire Powells book,,a very " anti-Bamber " author,,and because I actually saw in black and white,my thoughts that had been mulling around in my mind,I then decided to stick with it and set up a picture in my mind of what had happened.   

[Alias]

I've thought long and hard about this since I came onto the forum,,first thinking it could be Sheila being so ill,,but she wasn't the only one who was ill in that household.

It wasn't all about Sheilas' illness,,but the way in which the girl was driven into her illness by her stern and overly strict mother whose behaviour had overshadowed any hope of normality as far as Sheila was concerned. Junes' screaming fits when she caught Sheila in the field,,then another " do " when the divorce was looming. The woman was hysterical.

There are so many facets to consider regarding the mental fragility of June and her lack of reasoning.

 Sheila was craving love and nobody understood her. Junes high expectations of Sheila hit rock bottom and June must have been mortified at the way things turned out,,but she only had herself to blame.

No wonder her and the twins dreaded going to WHF. Sheilas' loves of her life being forced to pray at every opportunity.This was NOT normal behaviour.

I would say that what clinched it for me was when I'd read something in Claire Powells book,,a very " anti-Bamber " author,,and because I actually saw in black and white,my thoughts that had been mulling around in my mind,I then decided to stick with it and set up a picture in my mind of what had happened.   

Thanks for answering, Lookout. I agree that June had serious issues - you don´t get electro shock treatment if you don´t. I also think that Sheila might not even have been ill, but was "carrying" what was in reality June´s illness for the whole family - and broke under it, poor thing.
I just cannot see that June was involved because of what the blood in the bed, and the blood on their gowns (especially Sheila´s) tells us.

[scipio_usmc]

Jeremy´s position while shooting Sheila is problematic. Hasn´t been explained.

I explained what positions Jeremy could be in and whiche position was most likely. You then said you didn't like the options even though you had no means to establish they were not the field of possibilities.

I told you that his most likely position would be to hold the gun at the hip very close to her neck so that he both would have leverage to keep the gun there even if Sheila tried to push it away and so it would be close enough that the ME would not be able to say the round was fored at  adistance so can't be suicide.

You then went back to your discredited claim of Sheila sitting on the bed and said that if Jeremy did it he would have held the gun high up his chest to shoot her.

Trying to pretend I didn't answer you is nonsense, you seem to be developing significant credibility problems or you have a memory that lasts 2 seconds. 

[Alias]

I explained what positions Jeremy could be in and whiche position was most likely. You then said you didn't like the options even though you had no means to establish they were not the field of possibilities.

I told you that his most likely position would be to hold the gun at the hip very close to her neck so that he both would have leverage to keep the gun there even if Sheila tried to push it away and so it would be close enough that the ME would not be able to say the round was fored at  adistance so can't be suicide.

You then went back to your discredited claim of Sheila sitting on the bed and said that if Jeremy did it he would have held the gun high up his chest to shoot her.

Trying to pretend I didn't answer you is nonsense, you seem to be developing significant credibility problems or you have a memory that lasts 2 seconds.

I am not satisfied with your explanation of how Jeremy was supposed to have been standing while shooting Sheila. She propped up against something sitting on the floor - he would have had to be pretty far down to make those UPWARDS shots to her neck.
Just not plausible to me - you don´t have to get nasty and really, must also be able to see the problem in this.

[grahameb]

I explained what positions Jeremy could be in and whiche position was most likely. You then said you didn't like the options even though you had no means to establish they were not the field of possibilities.

I told you that his most likely position would be to hold the gun at the hip very close to her neck so that he both would have leverage to keep the gun there even if Sheila tried to push it away and so it would be close enough that the ME would not be able to say the round was fored at  adistance so can't be suicide.

You then went back to your discredited claim of Sheila sitting on the bed and said that if Jeremy did it he would have held the gun high up his chest to shoot her.

Trying to pretend I didn't answer you is nonsense, you seem to be developing significant credibility problems or you have a memory that lasts 2 seconds.

And this is the same character who complains that he is the one who is goaded and abused.

[Alias]

And this is the same character who complains that he is the one who is goaded and abused.

I don´t even take it seriously, he clearly has issues. The "wimpy Europeans" remark yesterday made that pretty obvious.
I dare question a theory of his that does not make one iota of sense to me, and he explodes in my face. Yaya

[lookout]

Thanks for answering, Lookout. I agree that June had serious issues - you don´t get electro shock treatment if you don´t. I also think that Sheila might not even have been ill, but was "carrying" what was in reality June´s illness for the whole family - and broke under it, poor thing.
I just cannot see that June was involved because of what the blood in the bed, and the blood on their gowns (especially Sheila´s) tells us.

It's a pity that no test was done for gun residue on Junes' hands/nightgown,because there would have been signs that she handled a rifle,,though there's no doubt about Sheila having had the upper-hand as the holder of the gun given that both her parents were badly shot and she wasn't,apart from the two injuries.
It was too much of a coincidence that the two women were found just feet away from each other in the same room. I remember saying last year that it would have appeared that they'd shot each other.

 

[grahameb]

The broken rifle butt had to be done by a woman,using all her strength behind the bashing. A man being the stronger sex would have no need to use such force.

A man would have used the barrel end. I Jeremy had done it he would have been reluctant to relinquish control of the business end of the rifle.

[lookout]

A man would have used the barrel end. I Jeremy had done it he would have been reluctant to relinquish control of the business end of the rifle.

I just couldn't picture him doing it Grahame,,having no cause or reason just to shoot on speck like that.

[scipio_usmc]

A man would have used the barrel end. I Jeremy had done it he would have been reluctant to relinquish control of the business end of the rifle.

Not a man who knows anything about weapons.

With the exception of if a bayonet is attached you strike with the butt of the rifle.  that is not only what is taught in military training it is the most natural position to use it. 

The claim it is more likely to break with a woman wielding it is nonsense.   A woman is less likely to strike as hard as  a man will and most certainly if a woman had long nails and battered someone with a rifle, bat or any similar object she would break a nail or several in the process.

[Alias]

No broken fingernails don´t prove a thing. Some people have strong nails, some have flexible nails - I have the latter, my nails never break - ever.

[scipio_usmc]

I am not satisfied with your explanation of how Jeremy was supposed to have been standing while shooting Sheila. She propped up against something sitting on the floor - he would have had to be pretty far down to make those UPWARDS shots to her neck.
Just not plausible to me - you don´t have to get nasty and really, must also be able to see the problem in this.

I don't care if you are satisfied or not, you claimed I didn't answer you but now admit I did.

The evidence proves she was propped against something when shot.  If not propped against something she would have immediately fell backwards and not have leaked blood down her arm and gown.  If wshe were leaning off the bed she would have fell face down onto the floor and not leaked blood on her arm and gown in the matter she did.

So this means she was seated with her back against something when shot.

WHile it is THEORETICALLY possible for her to have been sitting in the chair there was no blood evidence found that establishes she was.  It would have been more of  ahassle moving her body from the chair than to simply pull her flat while seated on the floor.  There would be far more chance in removign her while on the chair to smear blood and get it on other areas to her clothing to indicate she was almost upright.  It's not impossible but there is nothing to indicate he went through the effort.

The first shot didn't go up into the head it went to the back of the neck. So it was not a shot where he would have had the gun angled as much as you claim it would have been. The second shot was up but her head would already have been floppy at that point because of her broken vertebrae so he would be able to contron her neck for the fatal shot easier.

For both shots he would have mor econtrol standing and crounching a little than he would by sitting down in front of her or kneeling in front of her.  If he was sitting or kneeling on the same level as her then he would have less leverage and she would have a better chance of pushing the gun away.

Unless she was a zombie and acting like a statue so there was extremely unlikely she would try to push the weapon away or try to attack him then standing while she is seated makes much more sense. 

These are the only possibilities though, he was either standing, seated (obviously there are several different ways to sit) or kneeling in front of her.  There are no other possibilities.

 

[scipio_usmc]

No broken fingernails don´t prove a thing. Some people have strong nails, some have flexible nails - I have the latter, my nails never break - ever.

If they ar elong they would break from grasping a rifle extremely tight and repeatedly striking something very hard with it. unless weearing gloves it also causes rubs to the skin of the hands including blisters.  Particuarly if a sharp piece of wood breaks off while your hand is on it.