The Pargeter rifle

[nugnug]

Isn't it a "curious coincidence" that Adam doesn't have it on his "curious coincidence" list

id say it was a very curious coincidence.

[grahameb]

We went through this before.

For her to hug the rifle and shoot herself and not get any residue of any kind on her clothing and hands would be extremely hard to believe.

gunshot residue is expelled to the sides of the mechanism housing the firing pin.  That is what sets off the primer and the primer is what forms the cloud of gunshot residue. The rifle, particulatly with the suppressor attached) is so long that even with the gun against the skin of a victim still could end up not depositing any gunshot residue.  If the gun was not being held by someone else but instead held by the victim close to the body THEN in that case there should be gunshot residue all over the clothing of the victim, particularly the clothing near the firing meachanism of the gun but also the hand firing the gun.  The other hand could potentially be far enough away to avoid it.

So the absense of gunshot residue is evidence she didn't shoot herself but rather someone held the gun horizontally at her.  This explains why Nevill also didn't have gunshot residue.  Even the close shot to his face featured the gun being held horizontally at him not vertically up and down against his body.

When hand guns are used at very close range they frequently deposit some gunshot residue on the victims because they are much closer to a victim than someone with a rifle.  The longer the barrel of a weapon the further the shooter has to be and thus the greater the distance from where the primer is ignited.

She can't have changed an dwashed after being dead so this is a big problem.

Mike has come up with a rather elaborate scenario to get around all of this including the fact she didn't load any of the bullets.

He says June killed Nevill and the boys, she reloaded the gun, Sheila then killed June, she washed up and changed and police killed Sheila.

He has no evidence to establish it actually happened this way though.  Saying it is possible doesn't mean it is probable.

Suppose the firing mechanism was on the opposite side of her nightdress?

[nugnug]

i wonder who the source for the sports story was.

i mean they wouldent of printed it on jeremys word.

[Jan]

i wonder who the source for the sports story was.

i mean they wouldent of printed it on jeremys word.

It was in 1991 I think so could it have been to do with the "stokenchurch" report?

[nugnug]

im wondering if a policeman gave them that story.


im also wondering how a man can rember something better after 6 years have past.

[scipio_usmc]

Suppose the firing mechanism was on the opposite side of her nightdress?

It doesn't matter, the cloud of PGSR forms under, above and to both sides of the mechanism.

If you are firing a rifle standing with the rifle eye level and could see the cloud as it expands it would be approximately a half foot above your head, down to your stomach area, around a foot left of your left shoulder and 1.5-2 feet of your right shoulder. Also a foot from your chest and foot from your back. 

That is just the initial cloud, the particles can and will travel beyond this but will not be as concentrated as they will in the cloud that forms. The high concentration matters in trying to assess who a shooter was as opposed to incidental particles.

Her gown would have had GSR if she had stuck the gun under her neck and hugged the weapon regardless of whether the trigger guard were facing her body or away from it.  For none to get on her gown while doing so would be incredible. Even if there were not enough to say she were definitely the shoorter there would have to be some.

A majority of the time today they are able to actually figure out how a gun was being held by a shooter who commits suicide based on the gunshot residue pattern on the hand.  This is because victims do not move after dead so we don't have the kinds of spoilage of evidence that happens when a shooter is alive. Today we know a gread deal more about patterns of blood, GSR and other things than ever known in the past.     

Sometimes this helps the defense other times it helps the prosecution, it is a double edged sword.  Obviously it helps an innocent defendant much more often than a guilty one.


 

[grahameb]

It doesn't matter, the cloud of PGSR forms under, above and to both sides of the mechanism.

If you are firing a rifle standing with the rifle eye level and could see the cloud as it expands it would be approximately a half foot above your head, down to your stomach area, around a foot left of your left shoulder and 1.5-2 feet of your right shoulder. Also a foot from your chest and foot from your back. 

That is just the initial cloud, the particles can and will travel beyond this but will not be as concentrated as they will in the cloud that forms. The high concentration matters in trying to assess who a shooter was as opposed to incidental particles.

Her gown would have had GSR if she had stuck the gun under her neck and hugged the weapon regardless of whether the trigger guard were facing her body or away from it.  For none to get on her gown while doing so would be incredible. Even if there were not enough to say she were definitely the shoorter there would have to be some.

A majority of the time today they are able to actually figure out how a gun was being held by a shooter who commits suicide based on the gunshot residue pattern on the hand.  This is because victims do not move after dead so we don't have the kinds of spoilage of evidence that happens when a shooter is alive. Today we know a gread deal more about patterns of blood, GSR and other things than ever known in the past.     

Sometimes this helps the defense other times it helps the prosecution, it is a double edged sword.  Obviously it helps an innocent defendant much more often than a guilty one.

So if she was shot by someone else she should still have residue on her then?

[scipio_usmc]

So if she was shot by someone else she should still have residue on her then?

If someone else shot her then the gun would not be hugging her body up and down but rather the mechanism would be away from her body.  The suppressor and rifle barrel together would be more than long enough to keep the cloud from touching her body. 

_______________
suppressor            ----------------------- Mechanism/ stock
                             barrel
_______________ ----------------------


The cloud is near the back of the weapon picture a large circle going around most of the barrel (the circle covering the "rel" in barrel) and extending a similar disatnce beyond the stock. It would be a sphere so be round in all directions.  This cloud would not touch the victim it the gun is level like above.

If you move the gun roughly vertical with the mechanism around your crotch or stomach so the shooter can shoot himself/herself then the cloud is going to be all around the middle of your body. The trigger hand is well within this.  The other hand could potentially be too high to get hit it depends on where that hand would be.  One would expect the second hand to be rather high up though so to be missed by the cloud. 

Of course with the suppressor attached she couldn't shoot herself without standing up and stepping on the trigger with her toe but she was seated when shot and can't put the suppressor away after dying anyway.   

[Alias]

If someone else shot her then the gun would not be hugging her body up and down but rather the mechanism would be away from her body.  The suppressor and rifle barrel together would be more than long enough to keep the cloud from touching her body. 

_______________
suppressor            ----------------------- Mechanism/ stock
                             barrel
_______________ ----------------------


The cloud is near the back of the weapon picture a large circle going around most of the barrel (the circle covering the "rel" in barrel) and extending a similar disatnce beyond the stock. It would be a sphere so be round in all directions.  This cloud would not touch the victim it the gun is level like above.

If you move the gun roughly vertical with the mechanism around your crotch or stomach so the shooter can shoot himself/herself then the cloud is going to be all around the middle of your body. The trigger hand is well within this.  The other hand could potentially be too high to get hit it depends on where that hand would be.  One would expect the second hand to be rather high up though so to be missed by the cloud. 

Of course with the suppressor attached she couldn't shoot herself without standing up and stepping on the trigger with her toe but she was seated when shot and can't put the suppressor away after dying anyway.

How do you suggest the shooter stood/sat while shooting a sitting Sheila? Please describe what you see as the logical way this happened, step by step.
i would appreciate it - especially if you skip the insults.

[scipio_usmc]

How do you suggest the shooter stood/sat while shooting a sitting Sheila? Please describe what you see as the logical way this happened, step by step.
i would appreciate it - especially if you skip the insults.

She was seated and Jeremy either was standing with the gun at waist level (firing from the hip) maybe he had to crouch a little it depends on how high her head was otherwise he was seated/kneeling in front of her to get a good aim.  These are the only possibilities.  My bet would was standing with the gun at the hip because that is what most people in such situation would do. Sitting or kneeling would make it easier for her to try to fight back if she decided to do so.     
 

[Jane]

She was seated and Jeremy either was standing with the gun at waist level (firing from the hip) maybe he had to crouch a little it depends on how high her head was otherwise he was seated/kneeling in front of her to get a good aim.  These are the only possibilities.  My bet would was standing with the gun at the hip because that is what most people in such situation would do. Sitting or kneeling would make it easier for her to try to fight back if she decided to do so.   

Crouch a little!!! Seated!!! Kneeling in front of her!!!! What did he tell her her was doing? Taking her picture!!!!!! And YOU talk about US talking rubbish!!! What DO you think the above sounds like?

[Alias]

She was seated and Jeremy either was standing with the gun at waist level (firing from the hip) maybe he had to crouch a little it depends on how high her head was otherwise he was seated/kneeling in front of her to get a good aim.  These are the only possibilities.  My bet would was standing with the gun at the hip because that is what most people in such situation would do. Sitting or kneeling would make it easier for her to try to fight back if she decided to do so.   

Thanks.
It does seem awkward to me - why would he choose a position so uncomfortable for him? Sheila sitting there.... She could easily have grabbed the muzzle and turned it away, she had both arms free. I have a hard time buying that she would just sit there taking it!
Implausible, I have to say, I have the hardest time picturing this!

But OK, please, if you would describe what you think happened after the first shot. Again, minus slurs. 

P.S. I agree that she probably sat on the bed for the first shot, but I think she shot herself. There seems to be an indentation in the duvet (to the right in the picture) where someone sat.

[Alias]

Shoot from the hip with Sheila sitting there with her head turned upwards to make it easier for him....


Jeremy? Nah, she could have just kicked him in the head - or the balls.

[lookout]

 Now be a good girl------just sit there on the floor,,tilt your head back slightly,while I shoot you.

 

[Jane]

Now be a good girl------just sit there on the floor,,tilt your head back slightly,while I shoot you.

And she thought he meant with a camera.