The last ultimate test of gun, to prove sound moderator was not used in shooting

[Alias]

Just regurgitating the same old line. 



A more realistic scenario for the 1 dead male 1 dead female record:

There are two logs which have been produced and are available on this forum. In addition to that there are various other notes and statements.

The chain of communication is as follows:

1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.

2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.

3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.

4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.

5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".

6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.

7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".

... ..........................................................
The logs can be found in this thread which corroborates what I have written above: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,732.msg19630.html#msg19630
... ............................................................

Now my first observation that the "1 dead male, 1 dead female" came from a single source. If I am right about Adams informing CA07 then it came from the firearms unit, to Adams, to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

My second observation is that the "3 further bodies" is only recorded once by PC West and nobody else. The information regarding the rest of the bodies came from the firearms team, to Adams (if I am correct as previously mentioned), to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.

... .......................................................
WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED? :

In my opinion Collins saw Ralph through the kitchen window and mistook him for a female, he radioed in to Adams. The firearms unit entered the house and found Ralph's body, the firearms unit radioed it in to Adams.
Adams then, thinking that 1 dead male and one dead female had been found, radioed in to CA07 (1 dead male was first because that was fresher in his mind, being the last communication), CA07 radioed it in to the information room who in turn radioed it in to PC West. Now at this stage in actual fact only one body had been found.
The firearms team then eventually went upstairs and discovered the other four bodies, they radioed this in to Adams, Adams informed CA07 and CA07 informed the information room. The information room noted that five bodies were found.
The information room radioed PC West and told him about the five bodies, PC West mistakenly noted that a further three bodies were found rather than there were five as he thought that two had previously been found when they had not.

I have to say that I think this is how it could have happened.
Judging from the blood pattern on Sheila´s nightgown, there is no way she could have moved from the kitchen, up the stairs and into the bedroom.
So in my mind, there must have been misunderstandings in the reporting and in the logs.

[grahameb]

The breakdown of the transmissions are all fact based on the transmissions documents.

These documents do not say who conveyed the messages to CA7 and to the dispatcher though.  Harters gave his opinion as to who likely did so and readily admitted that such was his opinion because the documents do not list it.

This is the complete opposite of how most Jeremy supporters approach things, they misrepresent opinion as fact and even worse grossly lie about what the documents actually state to try to deceive. 

The lies about these logs are legion and looking at them reveals no support at all for most allegations.  In the meantime these allegations are misrpresented as fact and the logs are cited as evidence though they fail to support the claims at all. 

The same can be said for the phone log from Bonnet.  It doesn't support the claims made either.  The notion that Bonnett received a call form Nevill is impossible his station could not be reached by someone dialing999 or the main police station line. But worse, his form states quite clearly he received the message from PC West.  There is nothing at all on the form which suggests he received a direct call from Nevill.  So when Bamber supporters claim the form suggests Nevill phoned they are lying.

Another perfect example is the correction form that Mike just posted with respect to DRH/50-53.  It was a form noting errors to a particualr page in Hammersley's statement that incorrectly recorded DRH/50-53 as DRH/1-4.  Mike misrepresented that this proves items 50-53 had originally been catalogged as
DRH/1-4. It proves no such thing.  There are dozens of documents proving that DRH/1-4 were listed as shell casings from day 1. 

At some point one is forced to take a stand and either admit those lies being bandied about by supporters are in fact lies or to become one of the liars by trying to pretend their lies could be correct.

 

 

The is scipio these are logs of events as they happened. The "ironing out" and "harmonizing" of everything was made during the debriefing. They debrief in order to get everone saying the same thing. These logs are what they are and are plainly written for all to see. Unfortunately we were not privy to the debriefing of the raid team which of course came afterwards.
If these logs were not accurate then no one would know what to do. If they did not obey these logs then I doubt whether two ambulances would have been sent or a doctor, which they were at the response of "One murder one suicide". Folk may speculate all they like and lets face it what Hartley said was only his speculation of what might have happened. He was carefulto say "In my opinion". Which is of course correct.

[mike tesko]

There was a considerable delay between both shots, blood from the first had stopped running from the first wound before Sheila got up and made her way upstairs - in those circumstances there would be no blood evidence from the first wound down the nightdress, how could there be if the blood from the first wound had already dried because of the time which had passed from the first shot being inflixted and her movement upstairs...

Dry blood does not run from a wound, so the key point has to be the delay between both shots...

[scipio_usmc]

The is scipio these are logs of events as they happened. The "ironing out" and "harmonizing" of everything was made during the debriefing. They debrief in order to get everone saying the same thing. These logs are what they are and are plainly written for all to see. Unfortunately we were not privy to the debriefing of the raid team which of course came afterwards.
If these logs were not accurate then no one would know what to do. If they did not obey these logs then I doubt whether two ambulances would have been sent or a doctor, which they were at the response of "One murder one suicide". Folk may speculate all they like and lets face it what Hartley said was only his speculation of what might have happened. He was carefulto say "In my opinion". Which is of course correct.

The following is fact of what the logs detail:

"The chain of communication is as follows:

1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.

2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.

3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.

4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.

5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".

6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.

7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".


-------------------

The above is not an opinion of what the say it is fact of what the documents assert.

Those speculating that this is asserting 2 bodies were found in the kitchen are speculating.  It doesn't actually state such and June's boy was found not long after Nevill's.  Despite your submarine comments the firearm team did use a tool to look upstairs and rapdily found june's body so relatively early on they had found 2 bodies.  Thus it is entirely possible that the bodies being referred to in the communicaitons were June and Nevill.

It is also possible that someone somewhere along the line at any stage of the transmissions made the erroneous assumption that there was a female in the kitchen and male upon hearing that th ebody was in fact a man.

What is not possible is the notion that there actually were 2 bodies in the kitchen that opinion is clearly baseless and asserted in bad faith after looking at all the available physical evidence and testimony.

But at this point it is readily apparent that most of Mike's claims are lies made in bad faith because even after the truth is pointed out to him he returns to the same bogus claims.  So no longer can one excuse his claims as possible honest mistakes resulting from simply misreading documents.  He is intentionally distorting what the documents demonstrate.

The claims Mike and others make are way more wild than any coming from Bamber's lawyers and are documented lies in many instances.  Because this is the Jeremy Bamber forum and is using his name and likeness and arguing on his behalf people think all the claims are coming from Jeremy and his defense staff.  Once they recognize they ar ebing lied to they assume the defense is simply  abunch of liars and that Jeremy must be guilty or there would not be the need to resort to such lies.

So the objective of generating popular support through lies backfires.   I don't understnad why Mike and others continue to lie knowing that it hurts Jeremy if anything, it doesn't help.

 

[grahameb]

The following is fact of what the logs detail:

"The chain of communication is as follows:

1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.

2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.

3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.

4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.

5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".

6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.

7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".


-------------------

The above is not an opinion of what the say it is fact of what the documents assert.

Those speculating that this is asserting 2 bodies were found in the kitchen are speculating.  It doesn't actually state such and June's boy was found not long after Nevill's.  Despite your submarine comments the firearm team did use a tool to look upstairs and rapdily found june's body so relatively early on they had found 2 bodies.  Thus it is entirely possible that the bodies being referred to in the communicaitons were June and Nevill.

It is also possible that someone somewhere along the line at any stage of the transmissions made the erroneous assumption that there was a female in the kitchen and male upon hearing that th ebody was in fact a man.

What is not possible is the notion that there actually were 2 bodies in the kitchen that opinion is clearly baseless and asserted in bad faith after looking at all the available physical evidence and testimony.

But at this point it is readily apparent that most of Mike's claims are lies made in bad faith because even after the truth is pointed out to him he returns to the same bogus claims.  So no longer can one excuse his claims as possible honest mistakes resulting from simply misreading documents.  He is intentionally distorting what the documents demonstrate.

The claims Mike and others make are way more wild than any coming from Bamber's lawyers and are documented lies in many instances.  Because this is the Jeremy Bamber forum and is using his name and likeness and arguing on his behalf people think all the claims are coming from Jeremy and his defense staff.  Once they recognize they ar ebing lied to they assume the defense is simply  abunch of liars and that Jeremy must be guilty or there would not be the need to resort to such lies.

So the objective of generating popular support through lies backfires.   I don't understnad why Mike and others continue to lie knowing that it hurts Jeremy if anything, it doesn't help.

Sorry mate but I think my interpretation is more logical than your interpretation. The documents are quite plain. I do not feel the necessity to lie either. I can't think that you feel the need to emphasise that I am?

[mike tesko]

The prosecution case and its witnesses are the liars - you only have to look at the 15 page witness statement of the first firearms officer who sets foot into the kitchen, the original contents are missing and have been replaced by use of a completely different typewriter from the very point of his account where two bodies were discovered in the kitchen. Two bodies which are completely different to one another, one dead male, and one dead female, discovered after police entered the premises, there is no room for any mistaken identity, not once police have entered the farmhouse. These are the cold facts, not speculation at all. Those who are relying on what police saw through the window before police got into the house are speculating about what the police  actually found once they got inside - the FACTS are clear and undeniable, after police entered the premises the discovered two bodies, one dead male, and one dead female, two bodies not one. Nobody at the scene, or in the control room deal with the discovery of only one body once the police get into the farmhouse (7.30am), it was two bodies (7.37 and 7.38am), one dead male and one dead female. By 7.45am, the control room was contacting DS Davidson (SOC) at home, requesting him to come into the office because police at whf are dealing with a murder, and a suicide...

Where did the control room get this additional evidence from, regarding one of the deaths being a murder, whilst the other one was a suicide?

You cannot build the suicide scenario into Ralph Bambers death, so clearly there were two bodies, one male which must have been a reference to the murder of Ralph Bamber, and the body of a female, which could only have been a reference to Sheila, because June Bambers death upstairs, could never be described or looked upon, as being a suicide...

The contents of the various police logs are absolutely correct, it records the scene upon entry as it was discovered once the police set foot inside the premises, two different bodies, a male, a female, a murder, a suicide...

[No-Bits]

I have to say that I think this is how it could have happened.
Judging from the blood pattern on Sheila´s nightgown, there is no way she could have moved from the kitchen, up the stairs and into the bedroom.
So in my mind, there must have been misunderstandings in the reporting and in the logs.

Thanks Alias. Others can come to their own conclusions, but as you say, the blood staining of Sheila appears to me to dispel any possibility of her moving around the house.

Plus if Sheila moved around, the sheer number of people who will be needed to lie, from Bonnett,  West, the entire HQ team following along whilst the raid took place, the raid team themselves, Adams, the Doctor certifying death, the entire investigating team that followed, etc, etc; in order to maintain the conspiracy, and for what reason, what do they have to gain?

In my tiny mind, such a notion is utterly preposterous, but it would be boring if we all thought the same.

[mike tesko]

Police do not engage additional officers in a training exercise at the scene, because there was some mistake about the sex of a body seen from outside the kitchen window behind the door seen before police entered the premises , but cleared up once police actually got into the premises, these additional police were summoned to the scene in the first instance as back up because the female who was originally found in the kitchen was no longer there by 8:15am, and six or more police officers were trapped in different parts of the farmhouse temporarily, all not knowing the precise whereabouts of the missing female. By the time these additional officers arrived at the scene, the missing female had been relocated upstairs in the bedroom on the bed with a solitary bullet wound to her neck. The training exercise which followed and took two hours to complete, was designed to create a blue print of the raid details to be adopted by the original raid party, as though Sheila's body had never been found downstairs at all...

Once the training exercise had been completed, and after a debrief held later that same evening at Witham police station, the original members of the raid team were told to make up their notes as though the bodies of the victims had been found, where they had eventually ended up as a result of stage managing by the training officers...

This is what did happen, it is not speculation...

[No-Bits]

Thanks Alias. Others can come to their own conclusions, but as you say, the blood staining of Sheila appears to me to dispel any possibility of her moving around the house.

Plus if Sheila moved around, the sheer number of people who will be needed to lie, from Bonnett,  West, the entire HQ team following along whilst the raid took place, the raid team themselves, Adams, the Doctor certifying death, the entire investigating team that followed, etc, etc; in order to maintain the conspiracy, and for what reason, what do they have to gain?

In my tiny mind, such a notion is utterly preposterous, but it would be boring if we all thought the same.

Oh and I also think that any claims that a training exercise took place at the scene of multiple murders, to be be quite fantastical. Although others are quite welcome to think otherwise.

[mike tesko]

Once the blood from the first wound to the neck has dried, it will not run or leak down the body or upon the nightdress, so unless anyone can say with a degree of certainty how long a delay transpired between both shots, I am afraid it is mere speculation to say that a lack of additional blood on the nightdress proves or establishes that Sheila could not walk about, or make her way from downstairs to upstairs without such blood evidence to show up on the nightdress. Well, I have got my facts right, I do not need to speculate, I know that the first shot into Sheila's neck occurred at about 7.30am, and that she must have been laying there dripping blood onto the kitchen floor beneath herself, and that after 40 - 45 minutes afterwards she got up and made her way upstairs to the bedroom and collapsed on the bed next to where the body of her mother had ended up...

The blood relating to that first wound would almost certainly have dried after 40 - 45 minutes, so no chance of any additional bloodstain evidence appearing on the body or the nightdress to associate with her moving about from one part of the farmhouse, to another part...

My explanation cannot be dented by scientific analysis, because the way I am telling it, was how it happened...

[mike tesko]

Blood would have dried after 40 - 45 minutes, and movement of Sheila Caffell to another part of the farmhouse would produce no evidence that such a displacement of her body had taken place as described- the police and the prosecution have produced no evidence to confirm the delay between both shots being inflicted...

[mike tesko]

Once Sheila was shot on the second occasion, blood started to run again from the original bullet wound in the same general direction as the blood flow of the second inflicted shot...

This can be scientifically confirmed by reference to the dry state of the vertically inclined bloodstain which originally ran from infliction of the first bullet wound, as compared to the fresh looking wet blood flow which runs horizontally across the neck, alongside - one vertical blood trail dry in physical appearance, the other blood trail fresh and wet looking flowing in a contradictory direction, a feature not duplicated around the second bullet wound on the same neck...

[mike tesko]

There is no evidence to prove that Jeremy Bamber killed anyone, he got convicted by a reliance upon speculation...

[mike tesko]

The police and prosecution experts could not come up with a time of death for any of the five victims - they dared not, becase Sheila died after 8.44am that morning...

[mike tesko]

None of the independant witnesses to the passing and receiving of these various messages have ever made a witness statement confirming that they passed, or received, or were privy to the fact that two bodies were reported as found upon entry to the premises, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, one of the deaths described as a murder, the other death described as a suicide...

How odd, that nobody seems keen to take issue regarding these very serious and disturbing contradictions...