The last ultimate test of gun, to prove sound moderator was not used in shooting

[scipio_usmc]

There is clear documentary evidence that a female body was downstairs in the kitchen before police went into the premises, and afterwards once they got into the kitchen, supported by the additional documentary evidence that only three further bodies were found upstairs at the scene by 8.10am...

You can say what you want about this, but at the end of the day this information contained in these supposed contemporaneously recorded messages confirm that two bodies were found upon entry, one of which was a female, this is evidence which a jury never considered because police chose to deliberately withhold it...

The cop who stated he saw a female when looking through the window stated the body he looked at was the one propped over the chair and tha tit turned out to be Nevill not a female.

Your supposed clear evidence is indeed clear but clearly estbalishes only on ebody was seen in the kitchen before and after entry and it was Nevill.

[maggie]

"Bleed out" means to die from loss of blood.  Her first wound would have resulted in most of her blood leaving her body which would have resulted in a far larger mess unless an intervening event occurred.  The whole reason the coroner knows the second shot was fired within seconds of the first shot is because the substantial flood of blood flowing out stopped and it stopped because her heart stopped beating from the second shot.  The second shot is the intervening event that prevented far more loss of blood and her bleeding out from that first wound.
This point was uncontested at trail and hasn't been contested to this day by Jeremy's lawyers
 because they have no ability to do so.
Therefore if you want to make up a claim about police shooting her you need to make up the claim they shot her 2 times seconds apart.

Scipio, I am curious about your statement that Sheila would have lost most of the blood from her body via the first wound and that the bleeding only stopped because the second shot killed her and stopped her heart pumping.
I was under the impression at pm it was stated that the jugular VEIN in her neck was damaged and ruptured not her artery. It is an artery which spouts out blood pumped from the heart and
can cause a person to bleed to death, a vein bleeds to a greater or lesser extent depending on the damage, it's size and position, it carries deoxygenated blood back to the heart and is not pumped. I don't believe a wound to the soft tissue of the neck would kill you within  seconds???

[Adam]

Didn't the person report seeing a lock of blond hair ?  Which is Neville's colour. Sheila had dark hair.

[lookout]

Didn't the person report seeing a lock of blond hair ?  Which is Neville's colour. Sheila had dark hair.

It was grey hair. The same colour as RWB's hair too !

[mike tesko]

There is no official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell. The pronouncement of her death by the police surgeon, Dr Craig at 8.44am,  was erroneous due to the lack of interest in examining her body adequately. His pronouncement of her death without the necessary basic technique of checking for a pulse, equates that decision on a par with earlier announcements of dead females as per contemporaneously recorded police messages timed at 7.37, 7.38, and 7.42am, where mention is made of two dead bodies. One of these two dead bodies was a female. A female pronounced by someone who had entered the kitchen and discovered two bodies, not one...

A dead female  found inside the kitchen after the police entered. A message relayed to the occupants of CA07 who in turn relayed the same information to the control room...

In due course, that female body ended up in the main bedroom with a second bullet wound in her neck...

That female, was not June Bamber...

[mike tesko]

The occupants of CA07 relayed this vital information passed to them from officers who had entered the kitchen, which included, PC Collins, PC Delgado and PS Woodcock...

Most significantly, when these messages were relayed from within the kitchen, by the raid team officers, they distinctively mention the discovery of (a) two dead bodies, (b) the body of one dead male, (c) and, (d) the body of one dead female - dead male before mention of dead female...

In these circumstances, based upon the actual wording of the messages. It was impossible for any raid team member to misidentify the first body as a female before entry, corrected upon entry as the body of a dead male, because after the mention of the discovery of (a) one dead male, was accompanied by the linking word of (b) and, followed by the inclusion of (c) body of one dead female...

These messages were passed from within the kitchen of the farmhouse and in no way support any explanation about misidentification of Ralph Bambers body as being reported as the body of a female, unless that did happen but there were two bodies in the kitchen before police went in, one body of which could not be seen from outside the kitchen window -  the sihjting of a female body through the window rectified once entry was msde, establishing the nody seen from outside, was in fact the body of Ralph Bamber, but then a second body, the body of a female, who could only have been Sheola Caffell...

This is the correct interpretation of the number of bodies seen in the kitchen through the window (1), and the number of bodies found once police got inside the kitchen (2), including the mix up regarding the sex of the body seen through the window before entry, which was rectified after entry...

Thismix up had no bearing at all on the number of dead bodies discovered in the kitchen after entry was gained (2), only the sex of one of those two bodies...

[mike tesko]

We are now in a position to argue that the prosecution have no explanation to account for the presence of two different bodies found to be present inside the kitvhen of the farmhouse after police entered. This is significant, since the misidentification of one nody viewed from outdide the kitchen window, was rectified upon entry, and only related to one of the two bodies discovered there after entry was made..

Two different bodies found downstairs, not one mistaken identified for a diferent sex, which was rectified once entry was made...

Discovery of the female body after entry was made, alsor came about after the mix up regarding the the sex of the body seen through the window had been resolved, hence why at 7.37 and 7.38am, discovery of one dead male, was reported before the discovery afterwards of one dead female...

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio, I am curious about your statement that Sheila would have lost most of the blood from her body via the first wound and that the bleeding only stopped because the second shot killed her and stopped her heart pumping.
I was under the impression at pm it was stated that the jugular VEIN in her neck was damaged and ruptured not her artery. It is an artery which spouts out blood pumped from the heart and
can cause a person to bleed to death, a vein bleeds to a greater or lesser extent depending on the damage, it's size and position, it carries deoxygenated blood back to the heart and is not pumped. I don't believe a wound to the soft tissue of the neck would kill you within  seconds???

Mike is alleging the second shot was fired hours after the first.

The blood would have been circulating continuously in her body until death.  That means it would have had to pass by the wound and continued to flood out until she died.  She would have died from loss of blood before the time he claims the 2nd shot was finally fired to kill her.

If the second shot was fired substantially later then it would have been delivered when she was already dead and the 1st shot would have been the fatal shot.  But the coroner said this didn't happen and that because of the amount of blood on her it is obvious that 2nd shot was delivered within seconds of the first, killed her and with her heart no longer bleeding the hemmoraging stopped.

With the heart stopped circulation stops and blood settles in regions of the body below a wound. Blood above a wound can still leak out through the effects of gravity etc. but blood will not be circulating from the lower regions anymore so that is why people can't bleed out from any and all wounds it takes specific circumstances for that to happen.

 

 

 

[maggie]

Mike is alleging the second shot was fired hours after the first.

The blood would have been circulating continuously in her body until death.  That means it would have had to pass by the wound and continued to flood out until she died.  She would have died from loss of blood before the time he claims the 2nd shot was finally fired to kill her.

If the second shot was fired substantially later then it would have been delivered when she was already dead and the 1st shot would have been the fatal shot.  But the coroner said this didn't happen and that because of the amount of blood on her it is obvious that 2nd shot was delivered within seconds of the first, killed her and with her heart no longer bleeding the hemmoraging stopped.

With the heart stopped circulation stops and blood settles in regions of the body below a wound. Blood above a wound can still leak out through the effects of gravity etc. but blood will not be circulating from the lower regions anymore so that is why people can't bleed out from any and all wounds it takes specific circumstances for that to happen.

I do understand the circulatory system but I must have misunderstood your post which seemed to imply that the jugular vein would react like an artery.  It was a soft tissue injury so if not treated it would have killed her eventually but not in a short space of time and I  am not convinced there was a massive volume of blood from this wound, it depends how veinous the area was.  I know the outer jugular vein was damaged but after  an initial rush of blood it did seem to calm down.  It's hard to know whether it was stopped by her being shot very quickly after or if the flow just eased off, which would not be unusual.imo

[scipio_usmc]

I do understand the circulatory system but I must have misunderstood your post which seemed to imply that the jugular vein would react like an artery.  It was a soft tissue injury so if not treated it would have killed her eventually but not in a short space of time and I  am not convinced there was a massive volume of blood from this wound, it depends how veinous the area was.  I know the outer jugular vein was damaged but after  an initial rush of blood it did seem to calm down.  It's hard to know whether it was stopped by her being shot very quickly after or if the flow just eased off, which would not be unusual.imo

Even if it eased off some it would still keep bleeding in a rather substantial way until she was dead or bleeding stopped by some sort of treatment.  Vanezis opined that the first wound would have bled significantly more if the interval between the first shot and fatal shot had more than several seconds apart. 

Obviously that doesn't leave room to say they were fired a minute apart let alone hours apart. It takes much longer to die from a vein than an artery but more than an hour from a major one like in the neck will suffice and quite a while before death she would be unconscious. Plus there is no evidence to suggest she was ever upright at the time she was shot or after.

The wild stories of police shooting her are simply to suggest Jeremy is innocent, they are not evidence driven and not credible so a complete waste of time.  I fail to see why someone would bother with claims liek that instead of trying to stick with the strongest arguments that can be made.  It has resulted in Mike being branded a kook to those he aims to convince so seems totally counterproductive.

The only people who seem to give Mike credence is the choir that already shared his views and needs no convincing.

[mike tesko]

TWO victims present in the kitchen prior to entry by the police

(a) One of the two victims is spotted through the kitchen window and reported to others present that it is the body of a dead female. The officers who looked through the window did not see (b) the second victim by that stage...

POLICE SMASHED EXTERNAL FARMHOUSE DOOR DOWN AND ENTER PREMISES / KITCHEN

Upon entering the kitchen, police discover that (a) the body of the first victim seen through the window prior to entry was not in fact the body of a dead female, but the body of a dead male, (THE BODY OF ONE DEAD MALE - 7.37am)...

"AND"...

Then, they report the presence of (b) another body also present in the kitchen (THE BODY OF ONE DEAD FEMALE - 7.37am)

END....

[mike tesko]

TWO victims present in the kitchen prior to entry by the police

(a) One of the two victims is spotted through the kitchen window and reported to others present that it is the body of a dead female. The officers who looked through the window did not see (b) the second victim by that stage...

POLICE SMASHED EXTERNAL FARMHOUSE DOOR DOWN AND ENTER PREMISES / KITCHEN

Upon entering the kitchen, police discover that (a) the body of the first victim seen through the window prior to entry was not in fact the body of a dead female, but the body of a dead male, (THE BODY OF ONE DEAD MALE - 7.37am)...

"AND"...

Then, they report the presence of (b) another body also present in the kitchen (THE BODY OF ONE DEAD FEMALE - 7.37am)

END....

TWO BODIES IN THE KITCHEN, "One dead male, one dead female" - 7.38am...

[lookout]

 That's the way it was logged,and NOT by looking through any window,but physically ENTERING. 

[mike tesko]

That's the way it was logged,and NOT by looking through any window,but physically ENTERING.

Hi Lookout,

Yes, that is the way it was reported, including the view of the first victims body through the kitchen window, reported as the body of a female behind the door in the kitchen, which upon entry turns out to be the body of a male identified as Ralph Bamber - once police actually get into the kitchen, they report the discovery of the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female (7.37am), which is  a separate matter altogether than whether the body seen through the window prior to entry was female, or male (once entry is gained) discovery that the body behind the door is male, not female, that issue becomes resolved, and has no bearing at all on the discovery or report of a second body in the kitchen, being an additional one dead female...

Two bodies, in fact, present in the kitchen, as confirmed by the message contents timed at 7.37, 7.38 and 7.42am, not one body mistakenly identified as two, a female prior to entry, and a male body once entry had been made. This matter is easily resolved by the order with which the two bodies are reported as being present in the kitchen upon entry by police, which on two consecutive occasions mention of the body of one dead male, that is followed by the mention of "and the body of one dead female"...

Analysis of all the available information and documentary evidence, confirms that by 7.38am there were two bodies being reported as dead in the kitchen with police in attendance,, one dead male, and the body of one dead female...

Nothing could be clearer...

[mike tesko]

Reference in the police message log, "the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female" timed at 7.37am, confirms a  presence of two bodies present in the kitchen of the farmhouse, not one mistaken for two...