why dident the boys want to go to whf.

[lookout]

maybe its wrong of me to speculate about this but kids don't always complain about abuse.

You're right,nugs. Children are pretty resilient. They accept it as the norm,,but they know when visiting somewhere that's a lot different from their own home environment,and are quick to pick up that it isn't the same.
A lot of what the children would feel at WHF would be rubbed off from their mother,Sheila.

[nugnug]

i know there father found the drawings disturbing witch suggests they dident draw things like that when they were with him.

[lookout]

i know there father found the drawings disturbing witch suggests they dident draw things like that when they were with him.

They'd have sensed the atmosphere,nugs.Kids are good at that too.
Those drawings were how they felt,poor things,which was sad.

[nugnug]

maybe they had nothing else to do but draw so the let there imaginations run wild.

though i find it hard to belive lads that young would be that bored on a farm.

i mean all  those animals all those places to explore,

[lookout]

By all accounts,,Sheila wanted the boys " toughening up " a bit,as they weren't boisterous as boys are known for.Instead,they were quiet,gentle little souls,,thin and on the nervey side.
They used to visit the park in Maida Vale,where they lived with Sheila after Colin had left,,which may have affected them too,as boys need a father. No little friends to play with though. No trees to climb.

[nugnug]

i wonder were always frightened to go there or was it a recent thing.

[Patti]

Yes Jeremy did tell Mary Mugford June was a religious maniac. Although AE said this was not the case.

Best Sheila did not go on her free holiday. Perhaps the twins had not told her.

Hi Adam

Sorry to have to say this but, AE did not live at the farm. She went there every 2nd Thursday to collect hay and met the directors of the caravan park once a month.  In all fairness to AE she was the one that was so unaware of Sheila's illness and June's bible studies.

Colin knew the twins did not want to go to WHF, I think (DID NOT WANT TO GO) may be a little OTT. To try and put it mildly, they weren't that bothered about going for various reasons. One being that June tried to involve the children in bible studies and secondly their mother having been so ill over the past couple of years showed no interest in them. I'm not saying she did not love them....But one has to take what June told Pam the night of the murders and that is Sheila showed no interest in housework or the children. All very sad....I know. 

[nugnug]

who wanted the twins there then id guess it wasnt sheila.

[scipio_usmc]

Hi Adam

Sorry to have to say this but, AE did not live at the farm. She went there every 2nd Thursday to collect hay and met the directors of the caravan park once a month.  In all fairness to AE she was the one that was so unaware of Sheila's illness and June's bible studies.

Colin knew the twins did not want to go to WHF, I think (DID NOT WANT TO GO) may be a little OTT. To try and put it mildly, they weren't that bothered about going for various reasons. One being that June tried to involve the children in bible studies and secondly their mother having been so ill over the past couple of years showed no interest in them. I'm not saying she did not love them....But one has to take what June told Pam the night of the murders and that is Sheila showed no interest in housework or the children. All very sad....I know. 

Hard to claim she killed everyone because of the suggestion the children be in part-time foster care when she showed little interest in the children and welcomed the same in the past.

With respect to how pushy June was with religion that depends on who you ask.  People who had zero interest in religion and didn't want to pray or be told anything about religion claimed she was a religious nut.  But they would consider anyone who was religious a nut probably and that doesn't mean it is so.  Someone with an ordinary devotion is better able to say who is off the wall as far as religion goes.  Someone who prays all day long for hours at a time and watches those shows on tv and the like would qulify.  Saying morning and nightly prayers and grade before meals would not meet the test though it would annoy someone who doesn't want to be bothered period.  There is devotion and then there is obsession.  Some extreme examples would be needed to establish the latter and i have an example

My grandmother passed away recently from ovarian cancer and I have been cleaning out her things.  She had 75 pairs of rosary beads including a pair so big that the Jolly Green Giant could have used them,  the beads are bigger than ping pong balls, enough prayers to fill 4 boxes, a whole drawer full of medals, another drawer full of scapulars, around 30 religious statues, plaques, and countless other assorted religious articles. She said the rosary 2 times a day, said prayers for 4 hours in the morning then again for 4 hours in the evening and in between watched religious programming-and had to tell everyone about what the people she watched said- that is obsession.

 

[Patti]

Hard to claim she killed everyone because of the suggestion the children be in part-time foster care when she showed little interest in the children and welcomed the same in the past.

With respect to how pushy June was with religion that depends on who you ask.  People who had zero interest in religion and didn't want to pray or be told anything about religion claimed she was a religious nut.  But they would consider anyone who was religious a nut probably and that doesn't mean it is so.  Someone with an ordinary devotion is better able to say who is off the wall as far as religion goes.  Someone who prays all day long for hours at a time and watches those shows on tv and the like would qulify.  Saying morning and nightly prayers and grade before meals would not meet the test though it would annoy someone who doesn't want to be bothered period.  There is devotion and then there is obsession.  Some extreme examples would be needed to establish the latter and i have an example

My grandmother passed away recently from ovarian cancer and I have been cleaning out her things.  She had 75 pairs of rosary beads including a pair so big that the Jolly Green Giant could have used them,  the beads are bigger than ping pong balls, enough prayers to fill 4 boxes, a whole drawer full of medals, another drawer full of scapulars, around 30 religious statues, plaques, and countless other assorted religious articles. She said the rosary 2 times a day, said prayers for 4 hours in the morning then again for 4 hours in the evening and in between watched religious programming-and had to tell everyone about what the people she watched said- that is obsession.

 

It is true that June had her beliefs.  We can't ignore what the children had told their father. We can't ignore what Sheila told her doctors about her mother when she was in hospital.  We also have June in hospital through depression and this is when she turned to religion. Jeremy admits that June's religious beliefs had caused a rift between them.

Sheila hated it, yet she herself turned to religion in the end according to Colin.

Sorry to hear about your Grandmother.   

[scipio_usmc]

It is true that June had her beliefs.  We can't ignore what the children had told their father. We can't ignore what Sheila told her doctors about her mother when she was in hospital.  We also have June in hospital through depression and this is when she turned to religion. Jeremy admits that June's religious beliefs had caused a rift between them.

Sheila hated it, yet she herself turned to religion in the end according to Colin.

Sorry to hear about your Grandmother.   

Thanks

The children complained about being forced to say prayers.

Sheila complained about June calling her lifestyle sin.

These are not really big indictments of June.

I am not really sure what Sheila turning to religion means.  Taking drugs and sleeping with men doesn't really seem to fit the bill of being pious.  People troubled will sometimes try searching for answers through religion by researching various religions without actually practicing any.  They try to see if one appeals to them because the teachings sooth them. 

Foor instance, Catholic teachings are that you are forgiven your sins if you are sorry for them and confess them and that you can go to heaven still despite a sinner.  The message is one of hope and that is why it appeals to people. People like believing that there is still life after death and that there is something good waiting for them even if they do bad things.  It allows people to deal with death or loved ones and their own impending death better as well as other emotional problems

Some people can handle such things on their own and don't need any kind of a crutch.  But at some point most do to at least some extent which is the reason for the saying, "there are no atheists in foxholes".  The extent varies rather significantly from one person to another though.


 

[maggie]

Thanks
The children complained about being forced to say prayers.
Sheila complained about June calling her lifestyle sin.
These are not really big indictments of June.
I am not really sure what Sheila turning to religion means.  Taking drugs and sleeping with men doesn't really seem to fit the bill of being pious.  People troubled will sometimes try searching for answers through religion by researching various religions without actually practicing any.  They try to see if one appeals to them because the teachings sooth them. 
Foor instance, Catholic teachings are that you are forgiven your sins if you are sorry for them and confess them and that you can go to heaven still despite a sinner.  The message is one of hope and that is why it appeals to people. People like believing that there is still life after death and that there is something good waiting for them even if they do bad things.  It allows people to deal with death or loved ones and their own impending death better as well as other emotional problems
Some people can handle such things on their own and don't need any kind of a crutch.  But at some point most do to at least some extent which is the reason for the saying, "there are no atheists in foxholes".  The extent varies rather significantly from one person to another though.

Some paranoid schizophrenics develop real problems and delisions/hallucinations about God and the Devil. It's not surprising Sheila's illness had a very strong religious context as June believed in the fire and brimstone christianity very possibly passed down from her mother, Granny Speakman. That part of Essex had a religious sect called the Old Peculiars who believed very strongly in heaven and hell and the Devil and all his works.
I have read Paranoid Schizophrenics who have religios hallucinations/dellusions tend to be more aggressive.

[nugnug]

i wonder if junes strict relguis nature has been slightly exaggerated.

[lookout]

 Nugs,,it was one of Junes' problems when she was admitted to hospital the second time. She'd been diagnosed with having a religious psychosis,,as do a lot of people who suffer various forms of mental illness. I think June had ECT treatment again as well.

[nugnug]

its funny shiela and june had simlar problems even though they wernt actully related.