The dogs

[TheBrilliantMistake]

In some reports, the police state they heard two dogs upon arrival at the scene

And they certainly refer to one dog upon entry in the house (although in one account it's under the bed, in another it's in the cupboard) - two dogs? or two accounts? or was the dog put in the cupboard to keep it out of the way (highly plausible).

Now, I ask this -

Whoever broke in (if anybody did indeed do so) - how did they avoid the dogs being alerted to them and possibly barking?

I've not seen this issue raised yet, but it does intrique me.

[chelmsey]

TBM.........This confused me also.Two dogs were described to be heard barking and even Jeremy stated to the police that the dogs (as in plural) were usually quiet.According to Cooks statement,the dog was found in a cupboard in the main bedroom and was removed in case it disturbed the scene.(he couldnt have allowed that to happen because he intended to  do that himself)! The second dog,according to Mike Tesko,was kept in an outbuilding at the farm(and there was me thinking JM was in London at the time)! sorry,that was a bit below the belt but I am in just one of them moods tonight   

[mb1]

TBM.........This confused me also.Two dogs were described to be heard barking and even Jeremy stated to the police that the dogs (as in plural) were usually quiet.According to Cooks statement,the dog was found in a cupboard in the main bedroom and was removed in case it disturbed the scene.(he couldnt have allowed that to happen because he intended to that himself)! The second dog,according to Mike Tesko,was kept in an outbuilding at the farm(and there was me thinking JM was in London at the time)! sorry,that was a bit below the belt but I am in just one of them moods tonight   

Chelmsey - just said the same about 'bad mood' on a different post!
Just checked and it's not a full moon.  Perhaps it's radiation fall out.  Or being female 

Actually, has anyone researched the moon on 6/7 Aug 85?
Someone on the forum is good at weather etc. Can't remember who.
Years ago had to wade through mountains of research on this.
Back then:
    Full moon - violent crimes increase.
    New moon - burglaries increase
    Rapes - occur mainly at the two extremes, less on rise and wane.
Will global warming have changed that?  :D

Back to dogs.
Think i spied doggy-doo the floor of the open cupboard in the main bedroom. (Photo on 'Main bedroom' thread.)
Have asked - why not shoot the dog if you're mad enough to kill your children?
              Probable answer - because the dog told her to do it. (Sorry  )
But does anyone agree it's a valid question?

Also, the larger dog (black lab?) was routinely locked up in one of the barns as part of Nevill's turning in for the night.
Someone watching and waiting? Someone already knowing the pattern?
Someone sneaking in because that was the moment when the back door was left unlocked?

[Jackiepreece]

Chelmsey
Definately cheered me up with the JM/dog comment after a night of reading some not so funny comments from people with legal expertise who think people with no knowledge couldn't possibly come up with any useful theories about this case.  What everyone says on this forum is important if there is any possibility we might come to the right conclusion good or bad. The only people who I don't think shouldn't be on here are the actual relatives.
Sometimes the nasty comments make you feel like you are being bullied and that's not clever or funny

[mb1]

Chelmsey
Definately cheered me up with the JM/dog comment after a night of reading some not so funny comments from people with legal expertise who think people with no knowledge couldn't possibly come up with any useful theories about this case.  What everyone says on this forum is important if there is any possibility we might come to the right conclusion good or bad. The only people who I don't think shouldn't be on here are the actual relatives.
Sometimes the nasty comments make you feel like you are being bullied and that's not clever or funny

Are you suggesting I have made nasty personal comments about any poster on this site?
The comments aimed at Kaldin tonight were horrible and uncalled for. Kaldin is open-minded and doesn't deserve what was dealt out.

Think everyone has a right to their 'theory' but they shouldn't fake the existence of documents or evidence. That's underhand and, as I  stated elsewhere, disrespectful to the 5 dead people and JB. It doesn't help JB either.

I have argued:
If JB has to/wants to submit for leave to Appeal that's his right, and he should be allowed to repeat that process as many times as he wishes, in exactly the same way as other appellants.
Everyone, innocent or guilty, is entitled to a fair trial and due process, including the Peter Sutcliffe's, Ian Huntley's et al.
To remove their rights is to remove the rights of others.
 If arguing the above defines me as nasty in your book, then we are working from different definitions of words.

[MVV7]

TBM.........This confused me also.Two dogs were described to be heard barking and even Jeremy stated to the police that the dogs (as in plural) were usually quiet.According to Cooks statement,the dog was found in a cupboard in the main bedroom and was removed in case it disturbed the scene.(he couldnt have allowed that to happen because he intended to that himself)! The second dog,according to Mike Tesko,was kept in an outbuilding at the farm(and there was me thinking JM was in London at the time)! sorry,that was a bit below the belt but I am in just one of them moods tonight   

Chelmsey - just said the same about 'bad mood' on a different post!
Just checked and it's not a full moon.  Perhaps it's radiation fall out.  Or being female 

Actually, has anyone researched the moon on 6/7 Aug 85?
Someone on the forum is good at weather etc. Can't remember who.
Years ago had to wade through mountains of research on this.
Back then:
    Full moon - violent crimes increase.
    New moon - burglaries increase
    Rapes - occur mainly at the two extremes, less on rise and wane.
Will global warming have changed that?  :D

Back to dogs.
Think i spied doggy-doo the floor of the open cupboard in the main bedroom. (Photo on 'Main bedroom' thread.)
Have asked - why not shoot the dog if you're mad enough to kill your children?
              Probable answer - because the dog told her to do it. (Sorry  )
But does anyone agree it's a valid question?

Also, the larger dog (black lab?) was routinely locked up in one of the barns as part of Nevill's turning in for the night.
Someone watching and waiting? Someone already knowing the pattern?
Someone sneaking in because that was the moment when the back door was left unlocked?

My bold.

For all I know, this relation between moon and crime is an urban legend, as the relation between moon and births. I've seen some studies about the matter, not in the mood    to look for them now, maybe later if it's needed.

I think the moon on those days only has an importance about how much light or dark the night was.

[mb1]

TBM.........This confused me also.Two dogs were described to be heard barking and even Jeremy stated to the police that the dogs (as in plural) were usually quiet.According to Cooks statement,the dog was found in a cupboard in the main bedroom and was removed in case it disturbed the scene.(he couldnt have allowed that to happen because he intended to that himself)! The second dog,according to Mike Tesko,was kept in an outbuilding at the farm(and there was me thinking JM was in London at the time)! sorry,that was a bit below the belt but I am in just one of them moods tonight   

Chelmsey - just said the same about 'bad mood' on a different post!
Just checked and it's not a full moon.  Perhaps it's radiation fall out.  Or being female 

Actually, has anyone researched the moon on 6/7 Aug 85?
Someone on the forum is good at weather etc. Can't remember who.
Years ago had to wade through mountains of research on this.
Back then:
    Full moon - violent crimes increase.
    New moon - burglaries increase
    Rapes - occur mainly at the two extremes, less on rise and wane.
Will global warming have changed that?  :D

Back to dogs.
Think i spied doggy-doo the floor of the open cupboard in the main bedroom. (Photo on 'Main bedroom' thread.)
Have asked - why not shoot the dog if you're mad enough to kill your children?
              Probable answer - because the dog told her to do it. (Sorry  )
But does anyone agree it's a valid question?

Also, the larger dog (black lab?) was routinely locked up in one of the barns as part of Nevill's turning in for the night.
Someone watching and waiting? Someone already knowing the pattern?
Someone sneaking in because that was the moment when the back door was left unlocked?

My bold.

For all I know, this relation between moon and crime is an urban legend, as the relation between moon and births. I've seen some studies about the matter, not in the mood    to look for them now, maybe later if it's needed.

I think the moon on those days only has an importance about how much light or dark the night was.

I was being cheeky...
But did have to read lots of material, most of it American sources.
Funny you should say urban myth, because one of the alleged findings was a more marked response in high density/heavily populated areas.

Perhaps there should be moon cycle policing 

[Hartley]

I looked at the moon for the night of the murders in another post:

POST BY HARTLEY[/color][/color]

I can't quite work out where the moon was exactly at what time. But doing a bit of searching on the web it would seem that there was a full moon on 02/08/85 and a last quarter moon on 10/08/85, so the moon would have been somewhere between the two.
Source: http://www.lunarium.co.uk/calendar/universal.jsp?calendarYear=1985&calendarMonth=6

Also Sunset for 07/08/85 was at: 20:37
And Sunrise for 08/08/85 was at: 05:59
The moon rise was at 23:00 on 07/08/85
The moon set was at 12:46 on 08/08/85
Source: http://www.thetimeandplace.info/suntimes/sunmap

The moon rises in the East and sets in the West within 5 degrees of where the sun rises and sets, so from what I can work out the moon would have been on the East side (Pages Ln side) of White House until approx 6:30 in the morning when it would be directly overhead and then continue to move to the West. As sunrise was at 5:59 the moon would have been on the East side of White House all night.For clarity the front door (front of the house) of White House faces South and the rear yard door of White House (where the police entered) faces West.The above is as best as I can interpret but feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Hmmm I don't want to stifle thought - but I'd like to keep the thread loosely on track -

My point about the dog/s (perhaps I didn't make the point clear enough) was could the dog have alerted the family by barking when / if someone entered the house?

We've (generally) all gone down the line of them all sleeping and the killer managing at the very least to severely wound if not kill two people before any real chance of being detected. Most likely the children, but possibly Nevill and June.

Many people even think at least 4 were shot before any serious level of being 'awake' was reached. (Seems 4 were shot in their beds).

So - the silence is one thing and would help to shoot 4 without any loud noises, but the dog? would the dog be asleep too?

I'm not a dog expert - just curious, is it feasible the dog would be asleep in the same way as the victims? or would it wake up to intrusion?

Whichever way people view it, it's just another hurdle that Jeremy would have to overcome (so POSSIBLY helps the defence, but can't reasonably help the prosecution).


If the dogs were apart as many state, then the dog in the house barking could be explained by the nature of what had gone on in the house - quite understandable.
The dog in the barn barking would probably be explained by men wandering around the grounds!

[chelmsey]

Maybe before JB left the farm that evening,he had a crafty spliff and gave the dog some blow-backs.The dog didnt make a sound because it was stoned   

On a serious note, I found MB1s take on this interesting.Killer could have slipped in to the house whilst Ralph was locking up the other dog for the night in the outhouse.Supposing killer was JB,the dog wouldnt make a fuss because it knew him.My mums yorkie just used to quietly growl when I came home at night.It used to appear from my mums bedroom,see or smell it was me and saunter off back to bed. You have however scuppered my hit-man theory.A hitman I guess couldnt risk how the dogs were going to react to a stranger prowling round the farm.Certainly judging by the mad barking on the morning of the murders,tells me that they may have alerted the occupants and at least given them a chance.

[Hartley]

If only dogs could speak!

Why weren't the dogs shot, not named in the will?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

If only dogs could speak!

Why weren't the dogs shot, not named in the will?

The dog not being shot is a decent question really.
If you're going to kill everyone, then a barking dog wouldn't help matters... but it may be the dog was too quick to go chasing around the house after it?

We will never know... seems like one there was only one dog in the house, but two entities were 'barking'

[bob]

If only dogs could speak!

Why weren't the dogs shot, not named in the will?

The dog not being shot is a decent question really.
If you're going to kill everyone, then a barking dog wouldn't help matters... but it may be the dog was too quick to go chasing around the house after it?

We will never know... seems like one there was only one dog in the house, but two entities were 'barking'

Perhaps the dog(s) were familiar with the perpetrator so didn't get agitated?

Which rules out any third-party theories....

[shonapugs]

Hang on, Bob, before you rule out the theory that works for me.......I thought that the labrador was shut away in a shed after Ralph's last walk at night, and "The Pest" was just June's little lap-dog, which would possibly have hidden rather than attacked the killer, or defended June. It might not have reacted until the perpetrator had already entered the bedroom and started shooting.

[bob]

Hang on, Bob, before you rule out the theory that works for me.......I thought that the labrador was shut away in a shed after Ralph's last walk at night, and "The Pest" was just June's little lap-dog, which would possibly have hidden rather than attacked the killer, or defended June. It might not have reacted until the perpetrator had already entered the bedroom and started shooting.

That is indeed possible pugs - but in my experience even the most timid of dogs will yelp like an idiot if a stranger enters their territory...