I add Jeremys Name to this list

[scipio_usmc]

All the loose,spilled bullets on the table where the cream phone was.( daft question coming up ) Were they ever tested for fingerprints ?

What spilled bullets? There was only 1 loose not in the box. 29 were in the box and 1 was outside the box.

[Caroline]

What spilled bullets? There was only 1 loose not in the box. 29 were in the box and 1 was outside the box.

Really?

[scipio_usmc]

The fact that the officer changes his story about what he saw at the window.

All the officer supposedly saw was movement, and he said in retrospect it was a mirage, the window looked like it moved when he jerked his head.

I realize that you truly want to believe in his innocence but if Sheila shot herself police would have heard the shots and she would have had GSR on her gown and hands from hugging the weapon.

It was the dead of night there were not cars flying about and the daily noise of life going on.  They were sitting there waiting for something to happen they would have heard shots.   

I still am not convinced that the silencer was even used or that it was 100% human blood ( the link you provided)

What you choose to believe doesn't matter, the burden switches to the defense to disprove information of this sort.  Just saying you don't want to believe it is not enough.  One has to prove it is planted or wrong.

Saying you don't want to believe it was human blood even though the defense's own expert said it was human blood just shows that you don't want to face any testimony that is counter to what you want to believe.  The legal burden is for the defense to refure it was human or her blood type but their own expert said it was human and even said it was Group A.

You can believe anything you choose but whether you have a reasonable basis to believe it is another matter. When you disregard even the assessment of defense experts simply because it runs counter to what you want to believe it means you are guided by emotion.  That is not something that can be used to convince others. 

How pally he police became with the family ( very unprofessional and quite odd!)

Gosh I nearly forgot about how the timings of the calls were all very straight forward and agreed by everyone in the OS - then all of a sudden they had to find "proof" about why they had changed.

The difference in statements about the character of JB from August to Sept.

why were two bibles taken and then "lost"

As I said all only opinion ( as are most other peoples posts tbh)  but also I can not believe that JB would be spending all his time and energy to keep on trying to prove his innocence for all this time unless he was a complete mad man  - and if you read the OS, even from his family) he seemed to have a pretty ordinary life with normal family ups and downs (and two people suffering from sad illnesses)
That is ignoring JM evidence of course.

I can list dozens of guilty people who spent a great deal of energy maintaining they were innocent to the bitter end. One person just recently confessed on his deathbed despite exhausting every appeal possible. He claimed he was doing so for the family of the victims.  In the US more appeals exist than in the UK because not only are there 2 appellate levels, you can appeal to a federal court after exhausting state appeals and such appeals can go through 3 different court levels. That's why it takes 20 years to put someone to death.

Guede insists he didn't kill Meredith Kercher and even insisted such on appeal.  He maintains to this day his innocense.  His DNA was all over the place including inside her.  His fingerprints and footprints were found in her blood.  His MO was to break through second story windows to rob places and he usually carried a kinfe with him just like the one that killed her.  An imprint of the knife was left in blood. A 2nd story window of th flat was broken from the outside with a rock. He still claims she invited him over though she didn't have his address or phone number so how could she?  Kercher and her roomates did not know him, they only met him once when he was visitng friends int he flat below but didn't talk to him long or exchange any information with him.

just because someone claims to be innocent doesn't make it so.  What about Knox?  Since she didn't know how to contact Guede either and there is no evidence she was there you would expect her to be acquitted and she was by one court.  But Italy has such a messed up legal system that she was allowed to be tried a 3rd time and convicted. The court decided that she contacted Guede (though she had no means to do so) and invited him to go over with her to help rape and murder Kercher.  Not even Guede claims Knox invited him over.  He claims after they had sex he was in the bathroom and Knox came home, argued with her then killed her.  The prosecution found their own twitness rodoculous so made up the claim that Knox invited him in and ignored that the window was broken from the outside claiming that glass inside means it was broken from the inside.  The defense expert said glass broken from the inside goes out.  They don't have a jury of peers so if they want to find you guilty they will do so by ignoring evidence.

Nothing like that happened to Jeremy.  His experts could not refute the suppressor evidence his experts found the same thing as the prosecution.

The evidence that was destroyed in the case before trial was destroyed at the insistence of a pro-Jeremy investigator. It is hard to argue he would order such if the evidence were favorable to Jeremy.

The sloppy police work made the case harder for the prosecution not easier.

You choose to ignore Jeremy's own lies and criminal behaviors which demonstrate he is not trustworthy.  You choose to ignore evidence that suggests he was lying about various things.  Instead you choose to believe everyone else lied about everything imaginable and he didn't though he would have a very strong motive to lie.   

Who has a stronger motive to lie Jeremy to avoid jail or all the police including the lab?  Why would police not be satisfied blaming Sheila and intentionally frame him instead?  What would they have to gain?  Cases where police framed someone are cases where they wanted to solve a case an dhad no one else to blame and wanted it to end.  This case could have been closed and they would have had a lot less work there actually would be more benefit in blaming Sheila like the head wanted to so he would have less work to do.   
 
It isn't a case where they suspected Jeremy and publicly announced such, found out it was Sheila but didn't want to embarrass themselves so maintained he did it and framed him.  That's what happened in the knox case, they were humilated when it turned out that the fingerprints and DNA didn't match Knox or her boyfriend.  So they responded by claiming it was Guede and Knox together though absolutely no evidence established such.

Police don't frame someone for no reason especially whne it requires planting evidence, making evidence go away and thus involved the lab and a great number of people. 

In the meantime Jeremy's own claims and actions make so sense at all if someone looks at them objectively.       
 

[scipio_usmc]

Really?

That's not good at all for Jeremy supporters.  I was lead to believe 1 bullet was left on top and the rest still in the tray in the box (there is a cardboard box around these trays when originally purchased). There was a slim chance of arguing there were extra bullets in the box before the murders but this shows there was no box just the tray (which could hold no more than 50) and someone dumped the tray over to make it easier to load the bullets faster instead of sliding each out one at a time. So much for the claim that she would only have touched the shell casing as she picked the bullets up.  She could pick them out of the pile by either side but more likely would pick it up by the bullet end.

They load from the front of the magazine to the rear.  So you hold the front and slide it until the cartridge case is all the way to the back of the magazine.  In that manner you hands will be touching the lead bullet as you push it to the rear.     

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server1200/5ebc2/products/43/images/201/Anschutz_525_U8_4923__97008.1344292346.800.800.jpg?c=2

That link shows a loaded mag.  Why are the bullets not popping out?  Because there is a crimped lip on the left and right rear side of the magazine right after the notch.  So each bullet is pushed underneath this lip.  You can't load it by holding the brass case the brass case goes under the lip. 

So she would have touched the bullet anyway while loading it but would likely touch the bullet as well just picking them up. It makes sense to pick them up by the bullet since it is accessible and that is how they are loaded anyway.

The police had good reason to suggest she would touch the lead bullets and thus get lead on her hands.

Jeremy claims he left this tray in the exact location in the photo with the gun nearby and that this suggests neither it nor the gun had been moved by someone prior to the murders.  Whether it only had 48 or 50 (because he claimed he could not recall) is immaterial.  Why would Sheila dump it out and use 18-20 rounds from this box  and then go grab another 5-7 from the closet?  That doesn't make any sense.

This calls his entire claim of leaving the weapon out into question.  It suggests he staged these bullets after the murders to support his made up story of leaving the rifle out.

That story was already suspect since he was not known to shoot vermin and his story about the gun being stored without the suppressor and scope was refuted by others and their story actually makes sense.  Nevill would not want to remove the scope each time so he had to zero it.  Nor would it make sense to use without the scope and suppressor.  So this ammunition being staged is a further nail in his story.  Then there is th efact that he kept changing the loaction he supposedly left the rifle he first claimed the kitchen table. When police said the bullets were near the phone he changed to leaving the bullets there.  He changed from claiming she went with him to fire weapons to she saw him loading it the night of the murders and this is how she would know how to load it.

How convenient that she would be in space the rest of the day but intently watched him load the weapon and she didn't miss a single thing he did.

In fact she learned so well she figured out all on her own how to chamber a round, release the magazine, top off the magazine with another round and reinsert it that way she'd have 11 rounds in it to use in the master bedroom.

She's better than many military recruits going through basic training because unless it is explained how to chamber a round first most recruits don't realize they need to let alone how just from watching someone do it once very quickly.





 

[lebaleb]

We can't say that she learned how to chamber a round by watching Jeremy do it once, quickly. She may have see it done many times. She may have even tried it herself. There was plenty of ammunition around, not only in the kitchen but in the gun cupboard.
 The nightdress was not examined forensically. It was examined visually. It would certainly have had gun residue on it regardless of who pulled the trigger. It was on top of her when she was found.
 Fingerprints from fired bullet casings have only recently been recoverable because of the heat. Lead is easily washed off and someone had used the shower that night.
Even if the blood in the silencer is proved to be human [or even Sheila's] that alone is not conclusive.

[lebaleb]

The fact that the officer changes his story about what he saw at the window.

I still am not convinced that the silencer was even used or that it was 100% human blood ( the link you provided)

How pally he police became with the family ( very unprofessional and quite odd!)

Gosh I nearly forgot about how the timings of the calls were all very straight forward and agreed by everyone in the OS - then all of a sudden they had to find "proof" about why they had changed.

The difference in statements about the character of JB from August to Sept.

why were two bibles taken and then "lost"

As I said all only opinion ( as are most other peoples posts tbh)  but also I can not believe that JB would be spending all his time and energy to keep on trying to prove his innocence for all this time unless he was a complete mad man  - and if you read the OS, even from his family) he seemed to have a pretty ordinary life with normal family ups and downs (and two people suffering from sad illnesses)
That is ignoring JM evidence of course.

Not only the bible but also that note "Love one another...". Was that ever examined?

Who could have known whether or not, at that time, calls could be traced? It would have been insane to lie to police about a call not knowing that. If that is supposed to be the best alibi Jeremy could come up with it's pretty pathetic. He could have asked JM.

[lookout]

Only those who are guilty of a crime invent/need alibis'. Criminals cover for each other and lie their way through.
Those who are innocent,don't need one. Unfortunately,,there aren't that many people who are honest,,and those who are,,are disbelieved by the police anyway. They will NEVER give an honest person the benefit of the doubt.

Look how long the " plebgate " affair has rumbled on ? Because nobody was there at the time the politician rode off on his bicycle,,like Jeremy,,the guy left himself wide open to corruption.

[Jan]

   It's not much different to that though. According to DC Whiddon it was he who oversaw the destruction of evidence in 1996 on the instructions of DCI Soanes of Special Branch.
     Quite why Special Branch were involved is not clear. According to Whiddon he was instructed by Soanes to track down the whereabouts of Sheila's diaries which had been offered to a national newspaper or so he was led to believe. He goes on to state that EP had been contacted by the trustees of the estate of N&J Bamber regarding the whereabouts of the diaries.
     Already more questions are raised by these alleged events. Who offered these diaries to a national newspaper and was it investigated(if it ever happened and is not just an elaborate story to justify destruction of potentially troublesome evidence). How did this alleged offer come to the attention of the trustees/family and why did this lead to the involvement of Special Branch. Once Special Branch became involved  why did the remit of this task to locate Sheila's diaries expand into the wholesale destruction of key exhibits despite a court order and against the policy of EP at the time.
     That's some "mistake"

How strange you should say that, the diaries came into my mind last night.I thought I heard rumours that Sheila had kept a diary and I wondered what had happened to it .  She may have written in them that night for all we know - that could have revealed a lot. Also did june keep a diary ? She strikes me as the kind of woman who would?  We might of got a truer picture of what family life was like through that.

[Jan]

We can't say that she learned how to chamber a round by watching Jeremy do it once, quickly. She may have see it done many times. She may have even tried it herself. There was plenty of ammunition around, not only in the kitchen but in the gun cupboard.
 The nightdress was not examined forensically. It was examined visually. It would certainly have had gun residue on it regardless of who pulled the trigger. It was on top of her when she was found.
 Fingerprints from fired bullet casings have only recently been recoverable because of the heat. Lead is easily washed off and someone had used the shower that night.
Even if the blood in the silencer is proved to be human [or even Sheila's] that alone is not conclusive.

Is that correct that the nightdress was not examined forensically? I did not realise that.

Also although I Know it is often dismissed I think the fact that the shower was not in its "ususal" position is actually very relevant. The house keeper stated that it had been taken off ( probably after RNB used it because he was a creature of habit) And then they thought used by someone else , but not standing under the shower if you see what I mean. Girls tend to do that when they sometimes just want to wash their hair or hands or feet but not quite go to the whole hassle of a shower. Also EP did not take the clothes that SC had worn that day - Apparently AE took them home and said she still had them I think in her 1991 statements.

[Caroline]

That's not good at all for Jeremy supporters.  I was lead to believe 1 bullet was left on top and the rest still in the tray in the box (there is a cardboard box around these trays when originally purchased). There was a slim chance of arguing there were extra bullets in the box before the murders but this shows there was no box just the tray (which could hold no more than 50) and someone dumped the tray over to make it easier to load the bullets faster instead of sliding each out one at a time. So much for the claim that she would only have touched the shell casing as she picked the bullets up.  She could pick them out of the pile by either side but more likely would pick it up by the bullet end.

They load from the front of the magazine to the rear.  So you hold the front and slide it until the cartridge case is all the way to the back of the magazine.  In that manner you hands will be touching the lead bullet as you push it to the rear.     

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server1200/5ebc2/products/43/images/201/Anschutz_525_U8_4923__97008.1344292346.800.800.jpg?c=2

That link shows a loaded mag.  Why are the bullets not popping out?  Because there is a crimped lip on the left and right rear side of the magazine right after the notch.  So each bullet is pushed underneath this lip.  You can't load it by holding the brass case the brass case goes under the lip. 

So she would have touched the bullet anyway while loading it but would likely touch the bullet as well just picking them up. It makes sense to pick them up by the bullet since it is accessible and that is how they are loaded anyway.

The police had good reason to suggest she would touch the lead bullets and thus get lead on her hands.

Jeremy claims he left this tray in the exact location in the photo with the gun nearby and that this suggests neither it nor the gun had been moved by someone prior to the murders.  Whether it only had 48 or 50 (because he claimed he could not recall) is immaterial.  Why would Sheila dump it out and use 18-20 rounds from this box  and then go grab another 5-7 from the closet?  That doesn't make any sense.

This calls his entire claim of leaving the weapon out into question.  It suggests he staged these bullets after the murders to support his made up story of leaving the rifle out.

That story was already suspect since he was not known to shoot vermin and his story about the gun being stored without the suppressor and scope was refuted by others and their story actually makes sense.  Nevill would not want to remove the scope each time so he had to zero it.  Nor would it make sense to use without the scope and suppressor.  So this ammunition being staged is a further nail in his story.  Then there is th efact that he kept changing the loaction he supposedly left the rifle he first claimed the kitchen table. When police said the bullets were near the phone he changed to leaving the bullets there.  He changed from claiming she went with him to fire weapons to she saw him loading it the night of the murders and this is how she would know how to load it.

How convenient that she would be in space the rest of the day but intently watched him load the weapon and she didn't miss a single thing he did.

In fact she learned so well she figured out all on her own how to chamber a round, release the magazine, top off the magazine with another round and reinsert it that way she'd have 11 rounds in it to use in the master bedroom.

She's better than many military recruits going through basic training because unless it is explained how to chamber a round first most recruits don't realize they need to let alone how just from watching someone do it once very quickly.

It's no more likely that she picked up the bullet head than the casing

However, you are wrong that Jeremy didn't mention tipping out the bullets, he mentioned it in his very first statement and in later statements. He has never indicated that the gun was left on the table - this is something repeatedly mentioned (incorrectly) by Miller. But don't take my word for it - take a look at the 'facts below'.

[gringo]

   It's not much different to that though. According to DC Whiddon it was he who oversaw the destruction of evidence in 1996 on the instructions of DCI Soanes of Special Branch.
     Quite why Special Branch were involved is not clear. According to Whiddon he was instructed by Soanes to track down the whereabouts of Sheila's diaries which had been offered to a national newspaper or so he was led to believe. He goes on to state that EP had been contacted by the trustees of the estate of N&J Bamber regarding the whereabouts of the diaries.
     Already more questions are raised by these alleged events. Who offered these diaries to a national newspaper and was it investigated(if it ever happened and is not just an elaborate story to justify destruction of potentially troublesome evidence). How did this alleged offer come to the attention of the trustees/family and why did this lead to the involvement of Special Branch. Once Special Branch became involved  why did the remit of this task to locate Sheila's diaries expand into the wholesale destruction of key exhibits despite a court order and against the policy of EP at the time.
     That's some "mistake"

   Having thought about this there more questions than answers in this explanation by DC Whiddon on behalf of EP.
      What value would the diaries of a murder victim from a 10 or 11 year old case have to a national newspaper? However notorious the tragedy at WHF, surely by 1995/6 it is old news and Sheila's diaries would be virtually worthless unless......
      For them to be of any value they would surely need to contain some revelation previously unknown and for that revelation to be case changing.
      It seems odd that the trustees "asked EP to locate the diaries" having presumably become aware that they had been offered for sale. How would the trustees have been made aware of any contact between someone presumably from EP and a national newspaper? This would seem to suggest that the trustees or the relatives or possibly someone from EP/Special Branch was informed of the offer of sale by the newspaper in question. Why would this be and could it be our old friends, and known conspiracy enablers, News International?
       Why would the locating of the diaries become a task for Special Branch and not EP? and then why would this task expand into the destruction of much other evidence despite a court order and the advances in forensic science and specifically the science behind DNA testing?
      If you were the cynical type you might be led to believe that some people had something to hide

       

[grahameb]

All the officer supposedly saw was movement, and he said in retrospect it was a mirage, the window looked like it moved when he jerked his head.

I realize that you truly want to believe in his innocence but if Sheila shot herself police would have heard the shots and she would have had GSR on her gown and hands from hugging the weapon.

It was the dead of night there were not cars flying about and the daily noise of life going on.  They were sitting there waiting for something to happen they would have heard shots.   

What you choose to believe doesn't matter, the burden switches to the defense to disprove information of this sort.  Just saying you don't want to believe it is not enough.  One has to prove it is planted or wrong.

Saying you don't want to believe it was human blood even though the defense's own expert said it was human blood just shows that you don't want to face any testimony that is counter to what you want to believe.  The legal burden is for the defense to refure it was human or her blood type but their own expert said it was human and even said it was Group A.

You can believe anything you choose but whether you have a reasonable basis to believe it is another matter. When you disregard even the assessment of defense experts simply because it runs counter to what you want to believe it means you are guided by emotion.  That is not something that can be used to convince others. 


I can list dozens of guilty people who spent a great deal of energy maintaining they were innocent to the bitter end. One person just recently confessed on his deathbed despite exhausting every appeal possible. He claimed he was doing so for the family of the victims.  In the US more appeals exist than in the UK because not only are there 2 appellate levels, you can appeal to a federal court after exhausting state appeals and such appeals can go through 3 different court levels. That's why it takes 20 years to put someone to death.

Guede insists he didn't kill Meredith Kercher and even insisted such on appeal.  He maintains to this day his innocense.  His DNA was all over the place including inside her.  His fingerprints and footprints were found in her blood.  His MO was to break through second story windows to rob places and he usually carried a kinfe with him just like the one that killed her.  An imprint of the knife was left in blood. A 2nd story window of th flat was broken from the outside with a rock. He still claims she invited him over though she didn't have his address or phone number so how could she?  Kercher and her roomates did not know him, they only met him once when he was visitng friends int he flat below but didn't talk to him long or exchange any information with him.

just because someone claims to be innocent doesn't make it so.  What about Knox?  Since she didn't know how to contact Guede either and there is no evidence she was there you would expect her to be acquitted and she was by one court.  But Italy has such a messed up legal system that she was allowed to be tried a 3rd time and convicted. The court decided that she contacted Guede (though she had no means to do so) and invited him to go over with her to help rape and murder Kercher.  Not even Guede claims Knox invited him over.  He claims after they had sex he was in the bathroom and Knox came home, argued with her then killed her.  The prosecution found their own twitness rodoculous so made up the claim that Knox invited him in and ignored that the window was broken from the outside claiming that glass inside means it was broken from the inside.  The defense expert said glass broken from the inside goes out.  They don't have a jury of peers so if they want to find you guilty they will do so by ignoring evidence.

Nothing like that happened to Jeremy.  His experts could not refute the suppressor evidence his experts found the same thing as the prosecution.

The evidence that was destroyed in the case before trial was destroyed at the insistence of a pro-Jeremy investigator. It is hard to argue he would order such if the evidence were favorable to Jeremy.

The sloppy police work made the case harder for the prosecution not easier.

You choose to ignore Jeremy's own lies and criminal behaviors which demonstrate he is not trustworthy.  You choose to ignore evidence that suggests he was lying about various things.  Instead you choose to believe everyone else lied about everything imaginable and he didn't though he would have a very strong motive to lie.   

Who has a stronger motive to lie Jeremy to avoid jail or all the police including the lab?  Why would police not be satisfied blaming Sheila and intentionally frame him instead?  What would they have to gain?  Cases where police framed someone are cases where they wanted to solve a case an dhad no one else to blame and wanted it to end.  This case could have been closed and they would have had a lot less work there actually would be more benefit in blaming Sheila like the head wanted to so he would have less work to do.   
 
It isn't a case where they suspected Jeremy and publicly announced such, found out it was Sheila but didn't want to embarrass themselves so maintained he did it and framed him.  That's what happened in the knox case, they were humilated when it turned out that the fingerprints and DNA didn't match Knox or her boyfriend.  So they responded by claiming it was Guede and Knox together though absolutely no evidence established such.

Police don't frame someone for no reason especially whne it requires planting evidence, making evidence go away and thus involved the lab and a great number of people. 

In the meantime Jeremy's own claims and actions make so sense at all if someone looks at them objectively.       
 

What he (Bewes) actually said (depending on which version you choose) was that as he moved he realised it was a trick of the light. That was just before he ran off in a panic and radioed for armed backup. He became the butt of many jokes amongst the othe officers. But of course if you watch the video he tells it in such a calm way. But he was sh****g bullets at the time.

[Caroline]

It's no more likely that she picked up the bullet head than the casing

However, you are wrong that Jeremy didn't mention tipping out the bullets, he mentioned it in his very first statement and in later statements. He has never indicated that the gun was left on the table - this is something repeatedly mentioned (incorrectly) by Miller. But don't take my word for it - take a look at the 'facts below'.

You haven't commented on Jeremy's statements Scipio, you alleged that he initially said he left the gun on the table? He also mentions emptying some of the bullets on the counter top.