Author Topic: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...  (Read 9356 times)

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Offline Jane

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2014, 04:03:PM »
This is obviously quite an exceptional post which makes quite a compelling argument and given the confident way you have written, it could make it quite difficult for people to challenge the issues you have set out. That said, I think you are OVER confident with some of your claims and just because we aren't able to say with 100% accuracy how the silencer might have been contaminated, that doesn't mean it wasn't (you have used this argument yourself in other posts to answer other points). try to forget the arguments which would 'stand up in a court of law' because we are debating the possibilities of what might have occurred not the legal ranglings necessary to play the 'Law game'.

I have to admit that I myself, don't know a great deal about firearms - but lets just say that 'I know a man that does!' And in his MUCH experienced view neither backspatter nor drawback can be said to have definitely occurred.  Drawback only occurs with a contact or very near contact shot however, it has not even been demonstrated that a .22 rifle with a sound moderator fitted could/would experience drawback.  Tests should have been carried out to verify this (which I am sure you would welcome?).  In my friends view backspatter, which I (and he) accept is possible -  argues the it could not have caused the amount of blood found well inside the sound moderator.

Further - previous discussion on this matter have found no support for your suggestion that blood would certainly have been found in the barrel of the rifle and the fact that no blood was found inside the barrel means absolutely nothing, for several reasons.   First, if some blood found it way into the barrel as a result of a shot, the next shot could eject or burn the blood there.  Second, it cannot be said with any degree of certainty that backspatter or drawback would have occurred with any of the shots.  Third, the method used by the FSS to check for blood in the barrel was flawed.  They used a simple cloth pull through.  A few years ago the defence instructed an expert on this.  He said that any blood would have been deposited deep within the grooves of the barrel's internal rifling and would be dried on as a result of heat.  A simple pull through would not dislodge it.  Either a solvent or a fine brass wire brush would be needed to dislodge any blood residues.


Caroline!!!!!!!!!!!!! Speechless with admiration ;D ;D ;D

Offline Jane

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2014, 04:06:PM »
Hi Adam, have you read Caroline's post about the back spatter/drawback?  You may learn something which could help you to have a better understanding of the whole concept and how it relates to the case.  ;D ;D


maggie, whatever gives you the impression that Adam wants a better understanding of the case? He has his own understanding which would appear to be his limit.  :)

Offline maggie

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2014, 04:16:PM »

maggie, whatever gives you the impression that Adam wants a better understanding of the case? He has his own understanding which would appear to be his limit.  :)
Just trying to be helpful April  ;D ;D ;D  ;)

Offline Jan

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2014, 05:08:PM »
Quote From Scipio

"The redesignation of exhibits has no bearing on anything.  No court is going to care about that at

 all."


Really ??? I find that very hard to believe ?

So in court the police witness answers questions about exhibit DRH44 - yes my lord I am referring to blood of exhibit DRH44 - I believe is to be a hand print 

Sorry officer that's hard to believe ? DRH44 is swabs from SC hands ?

No my lord it cant be I allocated that number myself - it is the bible

But it cant be the bible ?

Which one the blue one or the black one which I removed?

Oh dear what a confusion.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2014, 06:25:PM »
Quote From Scipio

"The redesignation of exhibits has no bearing on anything.  No court is going to care about that at

 all."


Really ??? I find that very hard to believe ?

So in court the police witness answers questions about exhibit DRH44 - yes my lord I am referring to blood of exhibit DRH44 - I believe is to be a hand print 

Sorry officer that's hard to believe ? DRH44 is swabs from SC hands ?

No my lord it cant be I allocated that number myself - it is the bible

But it cant be the bible ?

Which one the blue one or the black one which I removed?

Oh dear what a confusion.

I said redesignation of exhibits is not going to be cared about.  Police changed the designation of the Suppressor among other things to more accurately reflect who initially found such, that is the purpose of said prefix.   

People supporting Bamber try to use such changes to discount the evidence itself but no court is going to care.  There are underlying documents establishing the receipt and transfer of items and testimony from the people who affected such transfers that is what courts care about.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jan

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2014, 06:28:PM »
I said redesignation of exhibits is not going to be cared about.  Police changed the designation of the Suppressor among other things to more accurately reflect who initially found such, that is the purpose of said prefix.   

People supporting Bamber try to use such changes to discount the evidence itself but no court is going to care.  There are underlying documents establishing the receipt and transfer of items and testimony from the people who affected such transfers that is what courts care about.

Not when the same person found both things.

Offline grahameb

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2014, 06:30:PM »
I said redesignation of exhibits is not going to be cared about.  Police changed the designation of the Suppressor among other things to more accurately reflect who initially found such, that is the purpose of said prefix.   

People supporting Bamber try to use such changes to discount the evidence itself but no court is going to care.  There are underlying documents establishing the receipt and transfer of items and testimony from the people who affected such transfers that is what courts care about.
So what reference did the silencer have that sat on Taff Jones' desk for a long time as he used it as a paper weight?

Offline lookout

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2014, 06:36:PM »
Doesn't that rather point to the silencer having been used?






This is how it was explained,Grahame. Is it any wonder that confusion was abound ?

Offline grahameb

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2014, 06:55:PM »





This is how it was explained,Grahame. Is it any wonder that confusion was abound ?
Either we are going to opt for the silencer being used. Or we opt for it not being used. If we opt for the silencer not being used isn't it rather inconsistent to argue the blood types allegedly found in the silencer? This is where the defence counsel slipped up. They got carried away as indeed did the judge when they got bogged down about whose blood was in the silencer, when they should have emphasised the facts that it was the relatives who "CLAIMED" to have found the silencer. Then to have allegedly TAKEN IT HOME with them. Plus the fact of possible contamination through everything the relatives did or did not do.
It isn't blaming the relatives for faking evidence. It is a matter of law and of the correct way of gathering evidence. It may be all true that they found the silencer. It may be all true that Bamber did it. But if evidence is not handled in the correct way then in my opinion that evidence must not be used even if it means that a guilty man will walk free. I know it sucks. But if evidence had been handled properly, then quite probably we would not be discussing it today. It would have been done and dusted and we would know for sure that Bamber is banged up for murder.

Offline Jan

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2014, 07:06:PM »
Either we are going to opt for the silencer being used. Or we opt for it not being used. If we opt for the silencer not being used isn't it rather inconsistent to argue the blood types allegedly found in the silencer? This is where the defence counsel slipped up. They got carried away as indeed did the judge when they got bogged down about whose blood was in the silencer, when they should have emphasised the facts that it was the relatives who "CLAIMED" to have found the silencer. Then to have allegedly TAKEN IT HOME with them. Plus the fact of possible contamination through everything the relatives did or did not do.
It isn't blaming the relatives for faking evidence. It is a matter of law and of the correct way of gathering evidence. It may be all true that they found the silencer. It may be all true that Bamber did it. But if evidence is not handled in the correct way then in my opinion that evidence must not be used even if it means that a guilty man will walk free. I know it sucks. But if evidence had been handled properly, then quite probably we would not be discussing it today. It would have been done and dusted and we would know for sure that Bamber is banged up for murder.

Grahame I completely agree - was it not the case with Barry George that some evidence was considered contaminated even though just travelled in the same police van as something that was not "handled " in the correct way?

I also think you need to be a mastermind ( not just someone who thinks they are ::)) to determine

Where the blood was - in baffles - when it had already been handled and taken apart
Was it even human blood?
If it was whos blood was it?

At one point it was just a protein that could have been animal blood ? (surprise ! it was on a farm gun)
Then it was a mixture, possibly? No Where have I seen it was Sheilas blood - although that is what some people claim


It never should have been admitted - end of.



Offline lookout

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2014, 07:11:PM »
 I'm glad I didn't post a reply to Grahames' post,,as it would have been pretty similar to yours,Jansus. ;D

 I'm in agreement with Grahame,too.

Offline lookout

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2014, 07:14:PM »
 No matter what both sides think,,everyone should agree that the silencer evidence was IFFY !

Offline grahameb

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2014, 07:30:PM »
Grahame I completely agree - was it not the case with Barry George that some evidence was considered contaminated even though just travelled in the same police van as something that was not "handled " in the correct way?

I also think you need to be a mastermind ( not just someone who thinks they are ::)) to determine

Where the blood was - in baffles - when it had already been handled and taken apart
Was it even human blood?
If it was whos blood was it?

At one point it was just a protein that could have been animal blood ? (surprise ! it was on a farm gun)
Then it was a mixture, possibly? No Where have I seen it was Sheilas blood - although that is what some people claim


It never should have been admitted - end of.
Didn't Mike mention that the silencer had been taken apart and the baffles put back in the wrong order? Some expert.

Offline lookout

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2014, 07:50:PM »
Didn't Mike mention that the silencer had been taken apart and the baffles put back in the wrong order? Some expert.





Also,Grahame,,wasn't there some damage done to the loading mechanism ? I seem to remember reading about something having been forcedand as a result,was skew-wiff.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Damning evidence set to undermine paint on silencer evidence...
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2014, 08:23:PM »
Either we are going to opt for the silencer being used. Or we opt for it not being used. If we opt for the silencer not being used isn't it rather inconsistent to argue the blood types allegedly found in the silencer? This is where the defence counsel slipped up. They got carried away as indeed did the judge when they got bogged down about whose blood was in the silencer, when they should have emphasised the facts that it was the relatives who "CLAIMED" to have found the silencer. Then to have allegedly TAKEN IT HOME with them. Plus the fact of possible contamination through everything the relatives did or did not do.
It isn't blaming the relatives for faking evidence. It is a matter of law and of the correct way of gathering evidence. It may be all true that they found the silencer. It may be all true that Bamber did it. But if evidence is not handled in the correct way then in my opinion that evidence must not be used even if it means that a guilty man will walk free. I know it sucks. But if evidence had been handled properly, then quite probably we would not be discussing it today. It would have been done and dusted and we would know for sure that Bamber is banged up for murder.


First of all it is good you are not a lawyer because you would miss arguments that can be made.

It is perfectly acceptible to suggest the suppressor was used during the murders but then removed before the suicide.  The suppressor was needed to try to prevent victims from waking up right away so that all could be killed in bed and not have to worry about some escaping.  It was not needed for the suicide and in fact prevented her from reaching the trigger so she would have reason to remove it. Is this a perfect argument?  No but there were no perfect arguments that could be made under the facts the defense had to contend with.

Making this argument in conjunction with the argument that the blood in the suppressor was June and Nevill's not Sheila's was the best chance the defense had at establishing reasonable doubt.  If they got the prosecution's expert to say (or found their own expert willing to say) there was a reaosnable probability of the blood belonging to June and Nevill then it is game over so far as the suppressor evidence is concerned.  But all he coudl get him to say was a remote chance and their own expert considered that no longer a possibility at all so they chose not to call their expert.  They hoped the jury would give more weight than due to the remote possibility but the gambit failed.

This was their best chance.

People suggesting they should have insisted it was planted don't comprehend how courts operate.  Lawyers don't present evidence witnesses do. 

Holly posted a statement by a lawyer who said they should have done the same thing that the defense did in a case where the evidence against the defendant was a fingerprint at the crime scene.  The defense had a witness testify it is possible to plan a fingerprint and explained how such can be accomplished using powder and tape among other things. 

Likewise in this case an expert witness would have to testify it was possible to plant the blood that was tested and to explain how.  It would have to account for the exact distribution of blood that was found.  Their own expert didn't believe the blood was planted or could be. He found microscopic drops of blood on the first 8 baffles and this blood was group A.  In his mind this was consistent with back spatter.  The defense thus needed to find a new expert that would testify the blood could be planted.  Like with the fingerprint this expert would have to provide a detailed explanation of the process needed to deliver the blood inside so it would be distributes exactly in the manner found.  They didn't find any expert who would state such nor has his appeal lawyers found anyone.

Mind you the defendant whose fingerprint implicated him was convicted.  It is not sufficient to establish the evidence could have been planted it is necessary to prove there is a reasonable likelihood it was planted. So first you have to prove it is possible and then prove it likely occurred. 

They could not even meet the first test of establishing it is possible because they found no witness to use.  Their witness would not agree to such and he even changed his assessment about the blood possibly being June and Nevill's.  They actually did a decent job by cross examining the prosecution witness so that everyone could hear the prosecution witness say there was a remote possibility that the blood was June and Nevill's.   The prosecution did poor followup left this dangling. 

Unless the blood of one dried before wet blood from the other got inside then there is no change of the blood not intimately mixing.  In order for it to be their blood one had to fail to intimately mix with the other. The heat in the rifle would not be enough to instantly dry the blood onyl a sizable gap in time of the shots coudl cause such.  There is no evidence to support tha there so the chance of them not intimately mixing is pretty much nonexistent.  This is why the defense' own expert said it wasn't their blood.  On redirect, the prosecution should have had the expert detail this but never did such.  So the defense won the argument sort of. By rights a jury should be able to tell a remote possibility is not a reasonable probability but jurors often have difficulty with the concept of "reaosnableness".  The defense did better than it could have hoped for under the circumstances. 

Implying that the family found it so they could have planted the blood is not an argument that can be made unless you first establish through a witness that such was possible and they had no witness to explain how blood could be planted so that it would be disributed as found.  Saying they found it is not enough either to prove a reasonable likelihood they planted it.

What is evidence that establishes a reasonable likelihood blod was planted?  Well one example is if a chemical to preserve blood is present. Such chemical is a foreign substance. Either containation occurred in the lab somehow or a blood sample that was being stored (hence had such chemical to preserve it) was tapped and used to plant evidence.  Mere opportuninty and motive to plant evidence is no tenough you need something like this to suggest it actually occurred. Testomonial evidence where someone admits to planting evidence, witnessed it or heard someone make an admission to planting evidence is great as well.

None of that is the case here at all we are treated to the claim:

1) Police in general did a bad job
2) the family found the suppressor
3) the family had a reason to frame Jeremy 
4) the police and family thus jointly framed Jeremy

That doesn't come close to meeting what is necessary for court purposes and doesn't come close to convincing anyone objective either that the evidence was planted.  it falls well short.

If the cop who inspected the closet testified the suppressor was not in there when he looked that would be one thing. He testified he only looked for certain things and didn't care about the rest so paid no mind to the rest and didn't record the rest.  That's not enough to suggest the family placed the suppressor there later.  And even that would still not prove they planted the blood that again needs proof it is possible and how. The suppressor could have been found behind a couch instead of in the closet that still would not establish the blood inside was planted. 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry