Accomplice, who was he?

[Roch]

Either way Roch, which ever gun she was shot with is easily explained. if they used one of their own guns (which would be far louder that the 22 and most likely heard outside and the wound far more serious), then they could have said it was self defence. If it was the 22, that there was a struggle.

They could have said there was a struggle that resulted in Sheila having been shot with the .22.  However, wouldn't that have raised a few eyebrows?  I mean what happens if policing experts start poking their nose in?  Where did the struggle happen?  Where is the associated blood trajectory nearby?  How was the weapon being held?

From my point of view, I don't believe that Sheila moved from downstairs to upstairs (even if Jeremy is innocent) and if she had, I see no reason why it would need to be covered up if at the end of the event Sheila ended up dead at the hands of one of the TFG - like I said, it could have been passed off as a necessary evil.

Caroline, the only claim I have seen as to why the TFG allegedly covered up Sheila having been downstairs is the one made by Bambergate who has stated it was done to spare Jeremy Bamber any more pain than was necessary.  The very same person whose reaction on first being told that everyone was dead... was to lay blame at the feet of the TFG.  Perhaps in that precise moment in time, he was more perceptive than the police expected him to be?

I have never ever been able to make sense of JB claiming the TFG were responsible, within the framework of him supposedly trying to set up Sheila for the killings.  It's absurd and the two things do not go together.  It undermines the alleged 'nutter' stuff said in the run up to the operation.

[Jane]

Either way Roch, which ever gun she was shot with is easily explained. if they used one of their own guns (which would be far louder that the 22 and most likely heard outside and the wound far more serious), then they could have said it was self defence, if it was the 22, that there was a struggle.

From my point of view, I don't believe that Sheila moved from downstairs to upstairs (even if Jeremy is innocent) and if she had, I see no reason why it would need to be covered up if at the end of the event Sheila ended up dead at the hands of one of the TFG - like I said, it could have been passed off as a necessary evil.

Caroline. I think one HUGE difference is that we have the luxury of time to mull this over and fit appropriate explanations to whatever "scene" we decide to use. The police didn't have that so MAY have found themselves fighting on two fronts, ie, getting their own story straight whilst having to make it fit with something to placate the rellies, by doing which they probably made it a damn sight more complicated than it need have been.

[lookout]

If Sheila had wanted to kill herself initially after the first shot,,why would she have held the weapon 3 or 4 inches away from when the first wound was made ? Doesn't sound like a suicide shot to me,,as it didn't make contact with her body like the second shot did. I cannot picture a rifle going any further away in order to commit suicide. People hold weapons to their flesh,,not inches away.

I still say that it was either parent while trying to wrestle the gun from Sheila,,fired that first shot,,possibly accidentally. Being as Sheila would have been in the bedroom at the time,,it would have been June,,seeing that others were already dead. The blood drips on the bedroom carpet were Junes,,so at some point she'd just about remained mobile.
Junes' prints and those of a small person were the prints found on the bible.It doesn't mention Sheilas'.

The second shot,,yes,,that was Sheila who shot herself with a contact shot.

[lookout]

 Because of the angle of the first neck wound,,Sheila would have been upright when she received it,,with her head tilted against whoever was holding the other end of the rifle. The " soot " marks on Sheilas' hand ( in a pic ) would have been from the guns barrel as she fought to retrieve it back. This is the way I see it anyway,with June being the next to last to die before Sheila.

[lookout]

It's certainly not beyond the realms of improbability that June herself " flipped " as well because of the nature of her illness. June was vulnerable and she'd possible reached the end of her tether with one thing and another. The poor woman wasn't young either to continue suffering with the problems that Sheila brought,,and that she had endured over the years. It wasn't fair on a woman of that age,whose own mental health was delicate. One can only stand so much.
No wonder Neville felt down,,he probably worried for his wife,,as well as everything else himself.
If only they could have put their trust in someone who'd have understood their plight. Very sad indeed.

[Caroline]

Even if she had possibly been unarmed at the time?

Yeah but who would know? There was no one other than the police at the scene so how would Robert Boutflour get wind of it and even if he did - Sheila had killed four people, the fact that she was shot by a police officer in a siege situation would make fish and chip paper in no time and certainly wouldn't lead to the framing of an innocent man. I just can't accept this is what happened.

[tyler]

I tend to disagree. Where was the evidence that it was a 'siege situation'? And if a member of a firearms team has to fire their weapon,there is then an investigation into that itself. Armed police can themselves be prosecuted if they kill somebody and it was not regarded as justified. However,I don't believe police shot Sheila,but am suspicious as about the amount of people that are said to have taken the rifle off of Sheila in order to make it safe. Nobody was keen to actually own up to this. I do think it is possible that Sheila had only the one wound and the second was caused by the gun accidentally being fired during the repositioning of it upon her body. But of course,I accept that there are many possibilities.

[Caroline]

I tend to disagree. Where was the evidence that it was a 'siege situation'? And if a member of a firearms team has to fire their weapon,there is then an investigation into that itself. Armed police can themselves be prosecuted if they kill somebody and it was not regarded as justified. However,I don't believe police shot Sheila,but am suspicious as about the amount of people that are said to have taken the rifle off of Sheila in order to make it safe. Nobody was keen to actually own up to this. I do think it is possible that Sheila had only the one wound and the second was caused by the gun accidentally being fired during the repositioning of it upon her body. But of course,I accept that there are many possibilities.

The evidence is the number of armed police officers outside of WHF holding back entry until they were sure it was safe - I think most people refer to it as a siege situation. However, I don't believe that Sheila was alive on entry and I don't believe that she was shot either but if she was, I don't think the officer would have been prosecuted because they would have made sure they had their excuses ready and for someone who had killed two children, Sheila wouldn't have had the public sympathy to the degree that an enquiry would be called far. The most that may have occurred would be an internal enquiry and we all know what happens at those.

Would the moving of the weapon result in the police framing an innocent man? Again, there would only be police officers that were party to Sheila receiving a second shot by accident and they could easily have claimed that she was already dead when the accident occurred. I do believe that Jeremy was framed but because they thought he was guilty.

[lookout]

 I would have thought that the police would have wanted Sheila alive,,or as live as was humanely possible,in order to get a sentence from her. There again,,we wouldn't know if there was an utterance from her would we ?

[Jan]

he may well have said that April but when someone else is writing the log who isn't present at the scene, it's not surprising that there will be discrepancies and misunderstandings.

yes three bodies upstairs - that is a big misunderstanding.

Also Hammersley reported in his statement that SC died of two  shots - one to the neck and one to the head.  but from the photographs both shots were to the neck.

Also JM after doing the ID said SC only had one wound to the neck.

I know we can argue to the cows come home about the interpretations - but so many discrepancies? .

Also the two bibles that were taken by Hammersley - and then the evidence number of one was changed to the swab from SC hand.

I hope they all had re-training afterwards.

[Caroline]

yes three bodies upstairs - that is a big misunderstanding.

Also Hammersley reported in his statement that SC died of two  shots - one to the neck and one to the head.  but from the photographs both shots were to the neck.

Also JM after doing the ID said SC only had one wound to the neck.

I know we can argue to the cows come home about the interpretations - but so many discrepancies? .

Also the two bibles that were taken by Hammersley - and then the evidence number of one was changed to the swab from SC hand.

I hope they all had re-training afterwards.

I am aware of  the discrepancies and have argued long on hard in respect to many of them and stand by what I have said. I have already said I believe Jeremy was framed but famed because they thought he was guilty - not because they knew he was innocent. Not every discrepancy is going to be deliberate and we will all have our own opinions on which we believe were engineered.

[lookout]

I wonder if it would have been possible that police planted the silencer in the gun cupboard knowing that it would be found,,as a way of arresting Jeremy for the murders. It's just that everything seems so contrived,.

[Alias]

I wonder if it would have been possible that police planted the silencer in the gun cupboard knowing that it would be found,,as a way of arresting Jeremy for the murders. It's just that everything seems so contrived,.

Well, that IS a possibility. Planted it was. I don´t beleve that police checked the cupboard no less than three times and didn´t find it.

[lookout]

Well, that IS a possibility. Planted it was. I don´t beleve that police checked the cupboard no less than three times and didn´t find it.

I'm trying to find a way in which he could have been framed. Short of daubing blood on him,,I can only think of the silencer because as sure as Hell,it wasn't used in the killings.

[susan]

Alias/lookout

after the horrendous murders at WHF Taff Jones was convinced it was 4 murders and one suicide so I am sure evidence would have been removed as a matter of course and the cupboard would have been searched. For some reason not known to us Taff was removed from the case and Ron Jones saw things differently than Taff and thought Jeremy was guilty of the murders the rest is history.  Now who planted the silencer I wonder!!!!