The Noble Cause Framing Theory

[Caroline]

That is a hasty and ill considered post. But I will come back to it later.

Well, it would be wouldn't it? It's criticising one of yours!!

[lookout]

 I have to agree with both Lebaleb and Martin. I probably come in about the middle.

 The fact still remains that there are a lot of unanswered questions all round with EVERYBODY ! Each situation differing from the other,,including varying scenarios. It's no good.

 As I've mentioned before,,Jeremy would have to be a raging psychopath to get beyond 27 psychotherapists/psychiatrists/ and those dealing with mental health problems,,,to enable him to go on pleading his innocence for nearly 30 years,,and to put people to the trouble of helping him fight for his freedom.
Yesterday,,I'd said that nobody appeared to be scared of him in any way after the murders and when the relatives first suspected him at the early stage,,,yet they're repeatedly stating that they " fear for their lives " at the thought of him being released ?
The same people who were around him,,the same people who gave him two rifles from the collection at WHF..I'd like to know how,and why they suspected Jeremy.
 
Why is everyone more scared now ? Nothing's changed.Jeremy's still locked up. He's never made any threats to them,,in fact he's done nothing to them to cause the " so-called " fear that they have of him.

The only thing that I can't understand is his calm in all of this because if I was swindled out of money/shares,etc,,I'd be ballistic for most of the time,,and poison pen letters would flow from my cell on a daily basis,,and I would make threats to get it back as well. This,to me is normal behaviour when you've been wrongly accused. Though I know I'd come off the worst for being like that,,and,ironically,,I'd most likely arouse suspicion by being like that. Either way,,you can't win.

I often wonder what his chances would have been if he were to have " confessed ". A model prisoner,,locked up beyond his time,,helping those who are blind, by writing in braille,,,whether he'd have been allowed parole.

I wish I had the amount of influence towards EP and the prison authorities,as the relatives have.  Pity I couldn't write to them suggesting that the criminals for release are likely to re-offend so keep them where they are until they die.
They'd all think I was crackers !

P.S.remind me to go in for a professorship if Jeremy is ever found guilty ! Particularly one in Mental Health.

[lookout]

 Jeremy hadn't even made any attempt to skip bail,,as a holiday had been arranged for himself and JM,,but instead,,he stayed put,letting JM go away with her friend instead. This was during the time from the murders up to his arrest in 1986.
JB also gave Julie her spends before she went away,,so it didn't worry,,nor bother her that he'd " murdered his family ". Nor did she complain of his spending habits ! Everything in the garden was rosy for her until Jeremy dropped the bombshell,,then,as a scorned woman,,she suddenly decided that he was the murderer,after spending BLOOD MONEY !

[Alias]

What is wrong with people having their own opinions? This is not a cult!

[Jane]

Susan the nature of schizophrenia involves the difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality,and if you can imagine being woken up in the middle of the night and led to your death in a matter of seconds is how I perceive this crime. As for Police, trust in them has been eroded along with many professionals including politicians,teachers,clergy and others. I believe in cock-up rather than conspiracy in this case because as Adam has said it would be just too much of a coincidence for all the events of this crime to have fallen into place as they did leaving Jeremy out in the cold regarding the purported telephone call from Nevill and his three calls to Julie in the space of a few hours.

Steve, I entirely concur, for reasons, of which we are all aware, that trust in the professionals you mention, frequently, IMO, because of their mistaken belief that they are beyond reproach, has become eroded. I'm also inclined to believe that the errors in the case began with cock up rather than conspiracy but I can see the possibility that the former MAY be responsible for the latter..................Steve, I hope you'll concur with ME that two out of three is pretty good going.

The point at which I must DISagree is where you see Sheila as being "woken up in the middle of the night" and led compliantly to her death. Someone, Adam possibly, has described her as being "mildly" schizophrenic. I'm not certain that one can BE "mildly" schizophrenic any more than one can be "mildly" pregnant, however, the degrees of severity of episodes may depend on several variables, the most likely being the balance and regularity of medication, followed closely by lifestyle. For Sheila, both fell short of the optimum.

Irrelevant of whether Jeremy is innocent or guilty, we know that Sheila had been agitated/manic(?). She'd run, screaming, from the monastery. She had verbally attacked a tradesman who locked his car doors against the onslaught. She skipped and danced with her children. She was said by a shop keeper to have been withdrawn. Pamela remarked on her monosyllibic responses. Over as little as a 48 hour period there is a suspicious fluctuation in her behavioural pattern suggesting that she may not have been able to sleep well, if at all. given the unauthorized reduction in her meds combined with learning that there was to be no happy reconciliation for her with Colin.

[lookout]

 Do we know if the relatives ever come forward or not regarding a written accusation by Jeremy,,that either AE or DB purposely scraped the underneath of the mantelpiece at the farmhouse in order to gather paint on the end of the silencer which they " found ",in which to frame him ?

I would be interested to find out if they ever sought advice,etc about this.

[vidvic]

Do we know if the relatives ever come forward or not regarding a written accusation by Jeremy,,that either AE or DB purposely scraped the underneath of the mantelpiece at the farmhouse in order to gather paint on the end of the silencer which they " found ",in which to frame him ?

I would be interested to find out if they ever sought advice,etc about this.

They offered the defence the facility to come into WHF and do any tests they wished but this wasn't taken up by the defence.

[Jane]

They offered the defence the facility to come into WHF and do any tests they wished but this wasn't taken up by the defence.

Does that sound like a defence doing a fair job for their client?

[lookout]

 Most unusual.

[grahameb]

They offered the defence the facility to come into WHF and do any tests they wished but this wasn't taken up by the defence.

I think it was because they ran out of money Vic? But as you say they did offer.

[Jan]

Caroline

It appears that you are committed to supporting the police on all those questions where it is essential to do so to maintain the pro guilt position, and yet you are also committed to the view that the police did, in fact, fake evidence to frame Bamber. It just looks too contrived!

What I have tried to do in this thread is to show that certain opinions which, to an outsider, might seem to represent a “balanced” view of the case are actually representations of the pro guilt position by implication. These are views which I have held for some time.

You can go with mocking Julie Mugford and with disparaging the silencer evidence and yet still come out of all of that smelling of roses and firmly on the side of Essex Police!

So Martin - I think  what you are saying is this argument that EP used whatever means they could to convict a guilty man would then mean that if for example the new evidence is that there was a wealth of information about Sheila which was not presented in court  , then the argument would be that it would not lead to the conviction being squashed, because the police kept it back in order to secure their ultimate aim - to put a guilty man behind bars.

And once you use this argument then this would neatly cover a huge amount of scenarios that may released by previously unseen evidence coming to light?

So in effect the only information that would ensure the release of JB would be Proof of his innocence that might come from a whistle blower? Or a document that proved the phone call from NB in an indisputable manner.

Am I understanding you correctly?

[Caroline]

So Martin - I think  what you are saying is this argument that EP used whatever means they could to convict a guilty man would then mean that if for example the new evidence is that there was a wealth of information about Sheila which was not presented in court  , then the argument would be that it would not lead to the conviction being squashed, because the police kept it back in order to secure their ultimate aim - to put a guilty man behind bars.

And once you use this argument then this would neatly cover a huge amount of scenarios that may released by previously unseen evidence coming to light?

So in effect the only information that would ensure the release of JB would be Proof of his innocence that might come from a whistle blower? Or a document that proved the phone call from NB in an indisputable manner.

Am I understanding you correctly?

In effect, yes. If EP had engineered evidence to say they could prove Jeremy didn't receive a call from Neville and they were caught out, then there would be a case because the call put Jeremy elsewhere. However, things like the silencer don't make an innocent Jeremy if taken out of the equation. Mind you, I think the courts would be forced to look at the case again if it were proven that the silencer found it's way into evidence by foul means.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve. Going back to a previous post of yours in this thread,you stated that 'Jeremy delayed entry to the farm by all means possible',or words to that effect. This is not true according to Bews. In an interview he admitted that Jeremy was anxious for the police officers to enter the farmhouse upon arrival. If they had,and all occupants were dead,a time of death may have been established which would likely have proved either way who the culprit indeed was. Surely Jeremy must have known this and yet he was still 'anxious' for them to go in?

Can you provide me with the reference? I have read Jeremy told Police that Sheila had recently indulged in target practice. Didn't he also have a key to the door which was forced?

[lookout]

 I don't know about target practice,Steve,,but there are a variety of " handwritten " drafts about Sheila and her handling of guns,,which never stretched to being type-written into final statements.

Both DB and AP had said at first, that Sheila was capable of carrying out the killings. They had told DCI Jones. More drafts,probably !

[guest7363]

What are you talking about? You're saying there is something wrong with having doubts? To be honest, I really don't give a rats what you think. I HAVE DOUBTS and nothing YOU say is going to change that. Your attempts at armchair psychology fall flat and reveal more about you than they do anyone else - again, I think you are less concerned with Jeremy being innocent or guilty in favour of simply being right.

I think everyone has doubts Caroline I just read an article from david james smith who visited Jeremy in jail and did a lot of research. I worried about those tears. I wondered if they were real and what he really felt. I looked and looked at his face and tried to prod and provoke different reactions. I could not say I ever felt overtly manipulated, but of course I just may not have noticed it was happening.
I had said on the way in that I feared I would find him repulsive, but in the event, I found him all too human and understandable. Except for the part of him that I felt was hidden. The corner of his soul that carried the knowledge of what had really happened that night 25 years ago,
and who really had killed his family.
He knows the truth. And he is the only person in the world who does.
Was it Sheila? Was it Jeremy?
Reader, I have no idea