Author Topic: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?  (Read 63958 times)

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Offline Jan

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #720 on: May 22, 2014, 09:51:PM »
I am going to ask a stupid question.

is there any chance that SC could have tried to kill herself with the moderator on - it did not work - so she took it off , flung it down and then tried again.

The police found the moderator but did not treat it as an exhibit ( because case was closed)  then later had to get a cover story for their incompetence?

the reason I ask is :

1)the post from Roch about the whole history of various moderators and when they were found
2)It seems no more incredible than JB putting the moderator in a box in the cupboard for the police to find
3) it would explain the different size wounds?
4) It sould not be used as evidence if the police had taken it and not recorded it properly
5) the family would go along with the story if they thought it would seal JB conviction?



But also as a different angle the expert that Mat linked to said it was not impossible that it was animal blood and he thought that even if it was the assumption of blood group A was not correct.


Offline Adam

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #721 on: May 22, 2014, 10:42:PM »
Having read Scipios posts about the back spatter, I can now appreciate that this is a more damning piece of evidence, than I had hitherto appreciated. 

As Scipio explains, it would have been almost impossible for relatives or Police to have artificially manufactured this evidence.

Are we all agreed that it's been proved beyond doubt, that the blood in the silencer was human?

I created a thread a few days ago.

It is clear that Julie & the relatives did not & could not frame Jeremy.

That leaves the police. Who must have handed the silencer to the labs & told them to expertly insert Sheilas blood in it. The labs agreeing to do this.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Alias

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #722 on: May 22, 2014, 10:50:PM »
I am going to ask a stupid question.

is there any chance that SC could have tried to kill herself with the moderator on - it did not work - so she took it off , flung it down and then tried again.

The police found the moderator but did not treat it as an exhibit ( because case was closed)  then later had to get a cover story for their incompetence?

the reason I ask is :

1)the post from Roch about the whole history of various moderators and when they were found
2)It seems no more incredible than JB putting the moderator in a box in the cupboard for the police to find
3) it would explain the different size wounds?
4) It sould not be used as evidence if the police had taken it and not recorded it properly
5) the family would go along with the story if they thought it would seal JB conviction?



But also as a different angle the expert that Mat linked to said it was not impossible that it was animal blood and he thought that even if it was the assumption of blood group A was not correct.

Thait is actually not impossible at all!
Could it be that the items so oddly placed around Sheila´s body (blood-free little rugunder her, socks partly on top of that and the Bible) could have been placed to cover silencer-shaped bloodmarks?? It looks like those items are there to cover/hide something.

Offline Jan

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #723 on: May 22, 2014, 11:03:PM »
here is the timeline again- that is from documented evidence

That's an interesting interpretation and one that is not entirely unreasonable.  However, just to put things in perspective regarding the silencer:

7th August:
WHF Incident occurs.

9th August  Also see 16th & 17th September near bottom
DS Neil Davison tests a silencer for finger prints. [Davidson was the exhibits officer.  During COLP interviewing, Davidson informed a Superintendent McKay that he was not aware the family had found a silencer.  He was also questioned by COLP about 'the second silencer'].

10th September:
Pargeter recounts to police about his earlier advice to David Boutflour, that David 'return' the silencer to police after having discovered some time after 10th August from David him self, that the silencer had been 'returned' to the family (presumably by police).

11th September:
Police telephone message detailed from David Boutflour, stating he has found silencer with blood on it (and) silencer was in cardboard box in downstairs office.

11th September:
Police action report details a DC Oakley as attending Ann Eaton’s house. It states that he picked up (exhibit) AE/1 and ‘a silencer,’ which he then referred to SOCO DCI Wright, based at Chelmsford Police Station. [It was asserted at trial in 1986 that the silencer was handed to an Essex Police Officer, DS Jones, on 12th August 1985 by Ann Eaton].
 
11th September:
DC 769 Oakey (different from above officer) visited WHF and collected telescopic sights DRB/2 and Eley Bullets DRB/3. Oakley made his statement about this on 25th October.  [So EP sent two separate officers to WHF, one called Oakley and one called Oakey, on the same day 11th Sept., to collect different exhibits, all of which are alleged to have been found in gun cupboard over one month earlier on 10th Aug].

12th September:
David Boutflour in his statement says he "informed the police of the finding of the telescopic sight and sound moderator".

12th September:
Anne Eaton in her statement mentions (for the first time) that a silencer had been found (one month earlier) on August 10th by David Boutflour. [Ann Eaton’s reply during COLP questioning:  “The only silencer found to my knowledge was the one found by my brother David. There never has been any other silencer found at White House Farm”].

16th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Essex gazette, which was then retracted:
‘Although a silencer was found shortly after police broke into the house, a few hours after the killings on 7th August 1985, it was not until after enquiries were reopened that this was regarded as significant,’

17th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Mirror, which was then retracted:
‘A heavily bloodstained silencer was found by the police hours after the gruesome massacre,’ in addition, ‘Police discovered a blood stained gun silencer at the farm on the day of the massacre.’


Offline grahameb

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #724 on: May 22, 2014, 11:44:PM »
I am going to ask a stupid question.

is there any chance that SC could have tried to kill herself with the moderator on - it did not work - so she took it off , flung it down and then tried again.

The police found the moderator but did not treat it as an exhibit ( because case was closed)  then later had to get a cover story for their incompetence?

the reason I ask is :

1)the post from Roch about the whole history of various moderators and when they were found
2)It seems no more incredible than JB putting the moderator in a box in the cupboard for the police to find
3) it would explain the different size wounds?
4) It sould not be used as evidence if the police had taken it and not recorded it properly
5) the family would go along with the story if they thought it would seal JB conviction?



But also as a different angle the expert that Mat linked to said it was not impossible that it was animal blood and he thought that even if it was the assumption of blood group A was not correct.
But would it explain why the x-ray of her neck showed a shattered bullet, but the bullet produced in court was a whole bullet? Somehow the shattered bullet was transformed into a whole one.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #725 on: May 23, 2014, 12:27:AM »
I am going to ask a stupid question.

is there any chance that SC could have tried to kill herself with the moderator on - it did not work - so she took it off , flung it down and then tried again.

The police found the moderator but did not treat it as an exhibit ( because case was closed)  then later had to get a cover story for their incompetence?

the reason I ask is :

1)the post from Roch about the whole history of various moderators and when they were found
2)It seems no more incredible than JB putting the moderator in a box in the cupboard for the police to find
3) it would explain the different size wounds?
4) It sould not be used as evidence if the police had taken it and not recorded it properly
5) the family would go along with the story if they thought it would seal JB conviction?



But also as a different angle the expert that Mat linked to said it was not impossible that it was animal blood and he thought that even if it was the assumption of blood group A was not correct.

The first shot was less likely to result in drawback than the second, the first would have more likely resulted in back spatter on the weapon than inside the weapon.

The same reach problems as far as pulling the trigger exist either way.

A majority of the time when the first shot fails in a suicie attempt a different location entirely is selected for firing the weapon.  She would be more likely to change the location than to removed the suppressor to try again.

The only plausible way to fire with the suppressor attached is possibly with her toe.  Whether she wa sin fact tall enough to do tha tis unclear but in some cases the toes have been used for long rifles. But that entails standing up and stepping on the trigger.  She was not shot standing up so that is not much of a possibility. She was sitting up based on the bleeding pattern.

It is also unlikely anyone would find the suppressor by her and not recognize it had some relation to the crime.

I know I bring up a lot of different considerations but that is exactly why there are so many different experts consulted in cases like this. 

 
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Offline grahameb

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #726 on: May 23, 2014, 10:09:AM »
The first shot was less likely to result in drawback than the second, the first would have more likely resulted in back spatter on the weapon than inside the weapon.

The same reach problems as far as pulling the trigger exist either way.

A majority of the time when the first shot fails in a suicie attempt a different location entirely is selected for firing the weapon.  She would be more likely to change the location than to removed the suppressor to try again.

The only plausible way to fire with the suppressor attached is possibly with her toe.  Whether she wa sin fact tall enough to do tha tis unclear but in some cases the toes have been used for long rifles. But that entails standing up and stepping on the trigger.  She was not shot standing up so that is not much of a possibility. She was sitting up based on the bleeding pattern.

It is also unlikely anyone would find the suppressor by her and not recognize it had some relation to the crime.

I know I bring up a lot of different considerations but that is exactly why there are so many different experts consulted in cases like this. 

 
I would really like to see a demonstration of that with a .22 rifle. I know it does happen with a more powerful weapon. But before I accept that I really think I'd like to see that for myself. Now who can we get to volunteer?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 10:09:AM by Grahame »

Offline lookout

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #727 on: May 23, 2014, 10:20:AM »
I'm certainly no gun expert,,in fact I know fa about them,but-----------------drawback on a close contact to my mind WOULD cause back spatter. The vacuum after firing would only need a pinhole for blood to be drawn back. Isn't it feasible/common sense ? Like when you put your finger over the end of a hose-pipe,a certain amount of water is drawn back because you've blocked the outlet ?
Surely it's the same for a contact shot from a gun/rifle,save for a slight movement to allow air to activate the pressure.

Offline lebaleb

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #728 on: May 23, 2014, 10:37:AM »
When the bullet enters the cavity of the mouth pressure is released.

Offline lookout

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #729 on: May 23, 2014, 10:38:AM »
When the bullet enters the cavity of the mouth pressure is released.




So you'd get drawback ?

Offline grahameb

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #730 on: May 23, 2014, 12:16:PM »



So you'd get drawback ?
Or blow the back of your head off. But with this .22 rifle it wasn't that powerful to send the bullet through the back of the skull. Instead it lodged against the skull at the top of the head and unshattered. As I said I have yet to have it demonstrated to me that backspatter can be created with such a gun with this small calibre. But not only the calibre, but the power as well. I know you can get high powered .22 guns. But this weapon was not that powerful so as to send the bullet through the skull even with the contact shot it appears?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #731 on: May 23, 2014, 11:19:PM »
here is the timeline again- that is from documented evidence

That's an interesting interpretation and one that is not entirely unreasonable.  However, just to put things in perspective regarding the silencer:

7th August:
WHF Incident occurs.

9th August  Also see 16th & 17th September near bottom
DS Neil Davison tests a silencer for finger prints. [Davidson was the exhibits officer.  During COLP interviewing, Davidson informed a Superintendent McKay that he was not aware the family had found a silencer.  He was also questioned by COLP about 'the second silencer'].

10th September:
Pargeter recounts to police about his earlier advice to David Boutflour, that David 'return' the silencer to police after having discovered some time after 10th August from David him self, that the silencer had been 'returned' to the family (presumably by police).

11th September:
Police telephone message detailed from David Boutflour, stating he has found silencer with blood on it (and) silencer was in cardboard box in downstairs office.

11th September:
Police action report details a DC Oakley as attending Ann Eaton’s house. It states that he picked up (exhibit) AE/1 and ‘a silencer,’ which he then referred to SOCO DCI Wright, based at Chelmsford Police Station. [It was asserted at trial in 1986 that the silencer was handed to an Essex Police Officer, DS Jones, on 12th August 1985 by Ann Eaton].
 
11th September:
DC 769 Oakey (different from above officer) visited WHF and collected telescopic sights DRB/2 and Eley Bullets DRB/3. Oakley made his statement about this on 25th October.  [So EP sent two separate officers to WHF, one called Oakley and one called Oakey, on the same day 11th Sept., to collect different exhibits, all of which are alleged to have been found in gun cupboard over one month earlier on 10th Aug].

12th September:
David Boutflour in his statement says he "informed the police of the finding of the telescopic sight and sound moderator".

12th September:
Anne Eaton in her statement mentions (for the first time) that a silencer had been found (one month earlier) on August 10th by David Boutflour. [Ann Eaton’s reply during COLP questioning:  “The only silencer found to my knowledge was the one found by my brother David. There never has been any other silencer found at White House Farm”].

16th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Essex gazette, which was then retracted:
‘Although a silencer was found shortly after police broke into the house, a few hours after the killings on 7th August 1985, it was not until after enquiries were reopened that this was regarded as significant,’

17th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Mirror, which was then retracted:
‘A heavily bloodstained silencer was found by the police hours after the gruesome massacre,’ in addition, ‘Police discovered a blood stained gun silencer at the farm on the day of the massacre.’

Press agents getting things wrong is not unusual.  They rarely know the finer details of what transpired fully. 

Are you sure there was a DC Oakley since no badge number was given?  Someone could have mispelled the name and also got wrong what he went to collect. That is why a premium is put on the accounts of those actually said to have done something.

Davidson's testimony was that he personally didn't look in the gun closet and that no one brought him a suppressor to put on the list of items being taken.  That doesn't necessarily mean no one found it, it means no one considered it relevant to take for analysis.  When it was collected it was done so by others and he was informed to the extent of writing down it had been collected but the suppressor was handled by someone else including being taken to the lab by someone else.  Significantly he indicates it was the only suppressor taken. some typing errors were revealed and most questions were answered.  A court reviewed the issue of the suppressor designations changing.

None of this in the least established the blood was planted which is what the defense needs to establish in order to establish reasonable doubt. The distribution of blood in th esupressor not matching how back spatter would be distributed within the suppressor would be evidence suggesting it was planted.  If the Sheila's wounds would not have been able to resul in drawback into the weapon that would be evidence suggesting it was planted.  If the blood had a chemical not naturally occuring in the body that is added to blood samples that would suggest blood from a blood sample had been planted.  None of this is the case.  he most common planting of blood is to use a dropper or pour it from a vial  But if that had been done the blood would not have been distributed in the manner found by the experts.  The blood was sprayed inside the suppressor just as would be the case from back spatter and there were microscopic drops (a hallmark of high velocity spatter) found on the first 8 baffles.  These drops were found by the defense not the prosecution and was determined by him to have been human blood of group A. 

The defense expert found NOTHING to indicate it was planted and worse found it to be Sheila's blood type. 

So either this was the perfect plant job and someone went well above what woudl have been necessary or it was truly back spatter.  COurts and most rational people go by evidence not emotion.  Those who want to believe in Jeremy are willing to say despite the lack of evidence that it was nontheless planted.  Everyone who wants to follow the evidence or is obligated to do so by law becuase that its their duty are forced to face that the defense can't find anyone to discount this evidence.

The naked claim it was planted without any proof doesn't meet the defense burden that is requires in order to discount such evidence.

No matter how many times peopel here post on this subject the bottom line is going to be:

1) that legally the defense has failed to put forth any evidence to discount it

2) that Jeremy supporters are saying they choose to believe it was planted without any evidence of it at all

This is the standoff. 

Supprters can't pretend there were no investigations into the matter, there were.  The matter was investigated numerous times but no evidence of planting was developed through any of the inquiries.
The inquiries looked tat the very issues being complained about and indeed that is where much of the information came from about shoddly police records.  Some shoddy police records do not challenge the reliable evidence about the chain of custody which was able to be established ot the satisfaction of the appeal court.

When there is investigation after investigation with no one admitting wrongdoing and nothing found it is the end of the line.  Other police investigations did result in evidence of wrongdoing turning up thanks to people admitting it and other evidence being developed.  That is not the case here though no evidence turned up to suggest the blood was planted.  Nor has any rational reason been set forth why police would decide it was not good enough to attribute the deaths to Sheila if all the evidence proved such and instead to decide to frame Jeremy.  Unsolved cases is where in the past police have done such in order to lose such cases.

Indeed police here beent over backwards for Jeremy at first even destroying evidence at his insistence. Pro-Jeremy police destroyed evidence that he wanted destroyed. Their half assed investigation was because they just bought that Sheila did it and didn't treat the scene as a potential homicide.  They didn't even have a ballistics expert go to the scene to investigate.  They decided there was no need for his expertise.  It can't be said lapses like this were intended to hurt Jeremy. 

More evidence turning up was a result of the poor job not turning up evidence right away and fact that it naturally takes time for all evidence to be examined and all reports to be completed.  The autopsy results take time, the processing of any collected evidence especially blood.  All these results have to be considered as a whole.  It is quite clear the change in views happened when the results of the investigation as a whole were analyzed.  That is natural.  The biggest anamoly is to declare the case open and shut murder suicide before the evidence was processed.   

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry