What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?

[Patti]

I'm going to hold out on answering myself because I's like to hear other members views.

I'm not sure whether he is guilty or innocent.  it does not bother me that i stray to the fact he might be innocent one minute and guilty the next.  i seek the truth and that is why i joined the forum.

to me its about what happened before, during and after that bothers me. there are many unanswered questions.,

1, why the destruction of evidence a few days after the murders and then again in 1996.

2, why was the defence not given the full details, was it that the defence failed to ask?

3, the hand swabs being re-submitted

4, the contamination of the silencer

5, the paint samples

6, why did forensics only find evidence regarding the bathroom window on the 3rd attempt?

7, why was the bible not part of the defence evidence

8, jeaps and brown clearly saw a rifle in the box room window, yet no rifle was ever recovered from there.

9, millendale states the light was on in the main bedroom window, yet bewes said the front of the house was in darkness.

10 it was not jeremy who saw something at the window it was sm it was bewes that said it was a trick of light....how could that be if the light was on? who put it on???

the whole case stinks it makes the police a laughing stock....i know this was 1985 but come on!!!! this was less than 30 years ago.

just having my say lol 

the

[Jan]

I agree Patti

Also in all the time I have been on the forum  some of the most confusing webs are around the silencer which was vital in securing the conviction. I still don't undertand why the police took guns and silencers from the family at the time of the trial and gave them evidence numbers either.

plus I have seen nothing that PROVES that Jeremy did carry out the murders and nothing that PROVES that Sheila did not.

And the things that are most annoying are scenarios and assumptions used as evidence.

[Adam]

They were trying to build a case ? Perhaps that is why it took 30 sessions to get to the end result?

you could say the same thing about Jeremy - if he is guilty why did they not see through his lies straight away?

So did the police force Julie to lie. Or did they know she was lying & just corrected & encouraged her.

They saw through Jeremys lies after a month. Some saw through him straight away, but were over ruled by Taff Jones, who was taken off the case.

[Jane]

So did the police force Julie to lie. Or did they know she was lying & just corrected & encouraged her.

They saw through Jeremys lies after a month. Some saw through him straight away, but were over ruled by Taff Jones, who was taken off the case.

I sense another s*****g thread coming

[scipio_usmc]

Good Lord Almighty, this is a long post! Haven´t even read it all yet (don´t have tine RIGHT now), but a couple of things:
It makes a big difference to me whether you are already inside a house and whether you creep into it in the dead of night.
If you are already in the house, you know where people are, and the people in the house expect the sounds you make moving around. If you are an intruder, you make/risk making them aware by unexpected sounds.
There is also a big difference between controlling (or expecting to control) three adults versus two.

Why would Jeremy "drag" Sheila into their parents´ bedroom to kill her there? To upset her at the sight of all the blood and her dead mother? Doean´t make much sense to me.

Will read your post more thoroughly at a later time. 

If he killed her in her bed that would not lead police to think that she killed everyone then committed suicide.  Similarly why would she go to her own bedroom to kill herself?  It looks better if she did it in a room with some of the victims.

The ideal plan was to kill the parents in their bedroom then the kids in theirs and kill her in 1 of these rooms so it looks like after she was done making sure they were dead she killed herself.

Sheila was just visiting it was not her house.  Jeremy has as much reaosn as her to know what sleeps in what room.

What happened was an execution of an entire family.  Executions happen at night like this because that is when the victims are most vulnerable. The biggest problem is that this is a sign of a planned execution which is inconsistent with the claim that Sheila just suddenly went crazy at 3AM.

At any rate, the choice was a planned execution as they slept or to do it as they were awake and take a chance of someone disarming you or running from the house to reveal your actions.  When asleep is much safer but ruins the claim of a burglar robbing the house because a robber doesn't go room to room killing everyone in a house they get the heck out of there if someone startles them and they shoot.   

The time of day helps also helped because he was able to pretend there was no way into the house with it bolted from the inside so that police would say well it had to be someone inside because no one else could get in.  So it helped in several respects to choose that time of night.

He supposedly wanted to execute his family, the murders are consistent with such an execution and the best time of day to do it safely is as they sleep.  That is the bottom line. If Sheila wanted to kill her whole family then she needed Jeremy there was well and had a reason to act at dinner or when he was visiting as opposed ot the middle of the night.  That part you are ingoring.

Why did Jeremy tell Sheila he had to act now?  he neede dot act when everyone was in the same house otherwise he would not be able to hill all heirs in one swoop and would have to share the estate with his siste ror her kids.   

If she had the same motivation but instead of money it was something else she likewise needed all of them there the same time. This wa snot lost on Jeremy he suggested the phone clal from nevill was a trick prompted by Sheila so he would go there.

He thought this up because he needed all of them there.  He just put her in his shoes which means he was needed there for her to kill. 

 

[Jan]

So did the police force Julie to lie. Or did they know she was lying & just corrected & encouraged her.

They saw through Jeremys lies after a month. Some saw through him straight away, but were over ruled by Taff Jones, who was taken off the case.

Adam - honest answer - I don't know - I can not fathom out the police action in this case at all.Right from the start the way they handled the evidence/logs/evidence numbers etc was a mess . Lets face it if it was not a mess none of us would have anything to discuss

All I know is that most people in her position- if she was telling the truth would have done something about it much earlier. That is my opinion.

[Jan]

So did the police force Julie to lie. Or did they know she was lying & just corrected & encouraged her.

They saw through Jeremys lies after a month. Some saw through him straight away, but were over ruled by Taff Jones, who was taken off the case.

By the way - I did say that either her first OS or her second statement were not the truth.

I obviously have my opinion about which one is correct and why she changed them. But that is my opinion only .

If JB is guilty - is the second one an elaboration of things to secure a conviction - or is it true to every detail? the only people who know that are Julie herself and the police who took the statements .

I am only commenting not accusing - before you go off on one 

[grahameb]

If he killed her in her bed that would not lead police to think that she killed everyone then committed suicide.  Similarly why would she go to her own bedroom to kill herself?  It looks better if she did it in a room with some of the victims.

The ideal plan was to kill the parents in their bedroom then the kids in theirs and kill her in 1 of these rooms so it looks like after she was done making sure they were dead she killed herself.

Sheila was just visiting it was not her house.  Jeremy has as much reaosn as her to know what sleeps in what room.

What happened was an execution of an entire family.  Executions happen at night like this because that is when the victims are most vulnerable. The biggest problem is that this is a sign of a planned execution which is inconsistent with the claim that Sheila just suddenly went crazy at 3AM.

At any rate, the choice was a planned execution as they slept or to do it as they were awake and take a chance of someone disarming you or running from the house to reveal your actions.  When asleep is much safer but ruins the claim of a burglar robbing the house because a robber doesn't go room to room killing everyone in a house they get the heck out of there if someone startles them and they shoot.   

The time of day helps also helped because he was able to pretend there was no way into the house with it bolted from the inside so that police would say well it had to be someone inside because no one else could get in.  So it helped in several respects to choose that time of night.

He supposedly wanted to execute his family, the murders are consistent with such an execution and the best time of day to do it safely is as they sleep.  That is the bottom line. If Sheila wanted to kill her whole family then she needed Jeremy there was well and had a reason to act at dinner or when he was visiting as opposed ot the middle of the night.  That part you are ingoring.

Why did Jeremy tell Sheila he had to act now?  he neede dot act when everyone was in the same house otherwise he would not be able to hill all heirs in one swoop and would have to share the estate with his siste ror her kids.   

If she had the same motivation but instead of money it was something else she likewise needed all of them there the same time. This wa snot lost on Jeremy he suggested the phone clal from nevill was a trick prompted by Sheila so he would go there.

He thought this up because he needed all of them there.  He just put her in his shoes which means he was needed there for her to kill.

Quite honestly I do not know whether to yawn or laugh?

[Jane]

If he killed her in her bed that would not lead police to think that she killed everyone then committed suicide.  Similarly why would she go to her own bedroom to kill herself?  It looks better if she did it in a room with some of the victims.

The ideal plan was to kill the parents in their bedroom then the kids in theirs and kill her in 1 of these rooms so it looks like after she was done making sure they were dead she killed herself.

Sheila was just visiting it was not her house.  Jeremy has as much reaosn as her to know what sleeps in what room.

What happened was an execution of an entire family.  Executions happen at night like this because that is when the victims are most vulnerable. The biggest problem is that this is a sign of a planned execution which is inconsistent with the claim that Sheila just suddenly went crazy at 3AM.

At any rate, the choice was a planned execution as they slept or to do it as they were awake and take a chance of someone disarming you or running from the house to reveal your actions.  When asleep is much safer but ruins the claim of a burglar robbing the house because a robber doesn't go room to room killing everyone in a house they get the heck out of there if someone startles them and they shoot.   

The time of day helps also helped because he was able to pretend there was no way into the house with it bolted from the inside so that police would say well it had to be someone inside because no one else could get in.  So it helped in several respects to choose that time of night.

He supposedly wanted to execute his family, the murders are consistent with such an execution and the best time of day to do it safely is as they sleep.  That is the bottom line. If Sheila wanted to kill her whole family then she needed Jeremy there was well and had a reason to act at dinner or when he was visiting as opposed ot the middle of the night.  That part you are ingoring.

Why did Jeremy tell Sheila he had to act now?  he neede dot act when everyone was in the same house otherwise he would not be able to hill all heirs in one swoop and would have to share the estate with his siste ror her kids.   

If she had the same motivation but instead of money it was something else she likewise needed all of them there the same time. This wa snot lost on Jeremy he suggested the phone clal from nevill was a trick prompted by Sheila so he would go there.

He thought this up because he needed all of them there.  He just put her in his shoes which means he was needed there for her to kill.

A few posts back, you aimed a broadside at on of my posts in which I said scientific  methods had failed to give conclusive evidence so all we were left with was conjecture, by saying that all conjecture did was convert the ignorant and your preference was to convert the knowledgeable rather that the ignorant because it was a challenge. It seems to me that the above, albeit that it was accepted by the court, is little more than conjecture because it matters not whether we believe Jeremy guilty or innocent, nothing of what you've said in the above is conclusive evidence.

[scipio_usmc]

Quite honestly I do not know whether to yawn or laugh?

Well if you want to live with your head in the sand by all means do so.  I chose not to.

You can pretend that killing people as they sleep is not a sign of premedicated execution.  Experts disagree and the statistical evidence is on their side not yours.

[lookout]

Quite honestly I do not know whether to yawn or laugh?

Do both,Grahame.

[Adam]

If he killed her in her bed that would not lead police to think that she killed everyone then committed suicide.  Similarly why would she go to her own bedroom to kill herself?  It looks better if she did it in a room with some of the victims.

The ideal plan was to kill the parents in their bedroom then the kids in theirs and kill her in 1 of these rooms so it looks like after she was done making sure they were dead she killed herself.

Sheila was just visiting it was not her house.  Jeremy has as much reaosn as her to know what sleeps in what room.

What happened was an execution of an entire family.  Executions happen at night like this because that is when the victims are most vulnerable. The biggest problem is that this is a sign of a planned execution which is inconsistent with the claim that Sheila just suddenly went crazy at 3AM.

At any rate, the choice was a planned execution as they slept or to do it as they were awake and take a chance of someone disarming you or running from the house to reveal your actions.  When asleep is much safer but ruins the claim of a burglar robbing the house because a robber doesn't go room to room killing everyone in a house they get the heck out of there if someone startles them and they shoot.   

The time of day helps also helped because he was able to pretend there was no way into the house with it bolted from the inside so that police would say well it had to be someone inside because no one else could get in.  So it helped in several respects to choose that time of night.

He supposedly wanted to execute his family, the murders are consistent with such an execution and the best time of day to do it safely is as they sleep.  That is the bottom line. If Sheila wanted to kill her whole family then she needed Jeremy there was well and had a reason to act at dinner or when he was visiting as opposed ot the middle of the night.  That part you are ingoring.

Why did Jeremy tell Sheila he had to act now?  he neede dot act when everyone was in the same house otherwise he would not be able to hill all heirs in one swoop and would have to share the estate with his siste ror her kids.   

If she had the same motivation but instead of money it was something else she likewise needed all of them there the same time. This wa snot lost on Jeremy he suggested the phone clal from nevill was a trick prompted by Sheila so he would go there.

He thought this up because he needed all of them there.  He just put her in his shoes which means he was needed there for her to kill.

Good point.

An execution by Jeremy  could only really happen late at night.

It is less likely everyone will be in WHF at the same time during the day. If they are they will all be awake. Jeremy & ten bullets against five wide awake people is less likely to succeed. Also witnesses such as farm workers may put Jeremy at the scene. Certainly he could not claim he was at home sleeping like a log.

Sheila could have an episode at any time. But did it late at night/early morning . Coincidence ?

[Jan]

Do both,Grahame.

come on now children - we are all civilised on here ( well 99% of the time anyway )

But I do think it is best if posters can ask one question at a time so we can post up evidence / documents if possible and opinions if not

Because if you see a huge post covering lots of information it is hard to extract what needs answering .

[Alias]

Scipio (to me):

I suggest you read more about her medication and the zombie like state it can put people in. 

Oooooh, you don´t have to, I already did, and that rather in depth.

Here one of my posts on the subject is quoted by another member (I was Abs back then):

Abs also posted the following about Haloperidol Withdrawal:

"Haloperidol Withdrawal

Haloperidol is also known as Haldol and can cause one of the worst withdrawal processes known to man. Haloperidol is a prescription medication approved to treat psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia, Tourettes syndrome, and behavior disorders. As with most medications for mental illness, stopping haloperidol “cold turkey” is not recommended.

The best approach to withdrawing from haloperidol is to wean yourself gradually from the drug. Haloperidol withdrawal is brutal and can make you feel like a prisoner in your own mind and body. On the surface, the notion of prescribing someone an anti-psychotic medication like haloperidol, is supposed to make people calm and quiet. But the reality is that you can become horrifically violent.  Withdrawal effects from haloperidol are severe and it takes intense medical supervision to ensure the person safely detoxifies. Whatever the motivation, you have a right to free yourself from using haloperidol. If you want to safely withdraw from haloperidol, it is helpful to have the support of a sympathetic doctor. The best way to safely withdraw from haloperidol is to have the active involvement of a doctor or prescription medication withdrawal specialist who can guide and monitor your progress.

Andrea Yates, a woman who lived in Texas with her five children was withdrawing from haloperidol when she drowned all five of her children. This is a very good example of why anyone going through haloperidol withdrawal should be closely monitored and under a doctor’s care. The withdrawal symptoms of a cold-turkey, too-rapid approach from haloperidol include nausea, anxiety, insomnia, restlessness, muscular reactions, and strange behavior.  The reaction to sudden haloperidol withdrawal can be life-threatening. People can become suicidal or extremely violent like Andrea Yates demonstrated to be true that day when she killed her five children in cold blood while she was withdrawing from haloperidol.  Haloperidol withdrawal symptoms also include breathing problems, tightening of the muscles, dry mouth, loss of control of your tongue, blurry vision, and pacing back and forth. A treatment center or hospital is the right setting for withdrawing from haloperidol.

The best way to prevent haloperidol withdrawals is to reduce the dosage gradually. The first week, you reduce your dosage by ten percent. Try that for the first week, and then see how you are doing. If you feel OK, reduce the dosage by another 10 percent. Try that for a week, and see if you feel OK. If you reach a point where you don't feel OK, don't reduce your dosage by another 10 percent; stay at the same reduced level for another week or until you do feel fine. Then reduce by another 10 percent and continue with the process. Remember, psychiatric drugs like haloperidol should never be stopped abruptly! The more slowly you can withdraw, the less severe effects you will suffer; don't try to stop taking haloperidol without support."

http://www.alt2meds.com/medication-withdrawal/haloperidol

"Cannabis (illegal in most countries):

Smoking cannabis increases the amount to dopamine in the pleasure centres of the brain, which is where the reward or buzz comes from. However, psychosis also comes from having too much dopamine, in another area of the brain. You have to remember that smoking cannabis can also increase dopamine in other areas of the brain, so can make psychosis worse. Please be careful, everything in moderation and if dope makes you worse, keep off the grass. It really won't help you in the long-term. Don't forget that if you're a toker, you're also a smoker, so see the question above. However, there are no extra problems with smoking cannabis, other than the smoking itself (see above). But, it might make you feel a bit more drowsy and may have more dry mouth, blurred vision and finding it hard to pass water (wee). Also, don't forget that cannabis can make psychotic symptoms worse."

So if Sheila smoked, it would decrease the amount of Haloperidol in her system and thus make her withdrawal symptoms even graver. "

http://www.choiceandmedication.org/norfolk-and-waveney/medications/56/

Abs also posted some other information in respect of Haliperidol withdrawal, I believe, but I can't find it.

Neither can I.  It is here somewhere.

P.S. this was posted,  October 10, 2011, 01:32:AM

[Jan]

Good point.

An execution by Jeremy  could only really happen late at night.

It is less likely everyone will be in WHF at the same time during the day. If they are they will all be awake. Jeremy & ten bullets against five wide awake people is less likely to succeed. Also witnesses such as farm workers may put Jeremy at the scene. Certainly he could not claim he was at home sleeping like a log.

Sheila could have an episode at any time. But did it late at night/early morning . Coincidence ?

I would think that is common sense? Most burglaries/crimes happen at night - but that does not prove anything?

If you have an episode caused by illness does that only happen in the day?

don't think so.