Author Topic: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?  (Read 63938 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44294
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #240 on: May 12, 2014, 07:07:PM »
Jeremys OS seems to suggest it ended after Jeremy asked another woman out & Julie heard. Julie was furious and reacted. . But what woman would not be ?

Too many things have to fit for Jeremys one reason to be correct -

He certainly had to have jilted her and really upset her. There is no evidence of Jeremy treating Julie badly & humilating her. Certainly not before the massacre. Jeremy said the relationship had been in decline for over 6 months. The massacre speeded up the process.

If Julie really was badly jilted, she would then have to decide one month after the massacre to attempt to frame Jeremy. She would have to be that sort of vindictive woman. Or have mental health problems.

Stan Jones & EP must have been convinced of Julies story. Experienced officer Stan Jones must have either encouraged her to lie or found her story beleivable.

Julie must have been such a determined & confident woman, she was able to stand up in court and lie.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2014, 07:12:PM »
Let us look at why the timings were possibly changed.

Originally both Jeremys and Julies timings in the OS were the same - Indicating that He had been called - then he rang his father back then called the police then called Julie before leaving . She just told him to go back to bed

Then the police in Sept told him they could prove the call timings /sequence were wrong.

So the Police clock was apparently wrong/ JM changed her timings as did the flat mates ( in Sept)

Jeremy said he wanted to stick to his original statement

So why did these changes suit the police?

two possibilities;
It helped blacken Jeremys character if he did not call the police first
It might have covered up why two cars were dispatched - where the timings did not seem to tie up wth the call logs.

And no I don't now what the answer is.

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2014, 07:19:PM »
Do you know where a copy of the supposed interview can be found where she speaks about this.  I heard it reported she threatened to stab a teddy bear Jeremy gave her among other things but have not seen a statement tha tproves she said any such thing.

At any rate, she seems to have been ticked off that he broke off the engagement which happened quite a while before the family was killed.  Their romance was dying down before th emurders but afterwards fell apart rather fast.

Some wonder if he was sleeping with Collins and bi and I am among those.  At any rate the bigger issue is whether what she claims is credible or likely to be made up.

His account of why he called her at 3AM and 6Am makes little sense the acocunt she gives does.

The details are things are to make up on the spot the level of detail is significant and there are tidbits like the girlfriend telling her Jeremy said he was the only one who knows what happened.

A big thing for me is that the story that Jeremy told her it was a hitman so he would not seem like a cold blooded killer makes sense.  If she wanted to ge thim in trouble the thing to make up is that he did it, she knew he had no alibi so just say he told her he did it.  It makes no sense to make up a hitman especially not to name said hitman so police could quickly rule it out.

There is a great deal to corroborate her claims and give it credibility.  That is the most important thing to look at.     


He did not call her at those times - here is her statement



Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33771
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2014, 07:19:PM »
Why are you suggesting, for the secind time, that julie way mentally ill? Perhaps you know something we don't.

Most women know when a relationship is in decline. I think Julie was hankering for for a ring so she clung on.

I think a woman that determined WOULD be capable of vindictiveness when she saw her planned future disappear.

OR did they encourage her to expand her story to save herself from standing in the dock along side Jeremy.

I believe she undoubetedly was.

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2014, 07:23:PM »
her change of statements could have been a combination of things

1) immunity from prosecution for the crimes she had carried out
2) Jilted / revenge
3) Pressure from the police who MAY have convinced her he was guilty
4) money from the N.O.W a final inducement to continue in court.



Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2014, 07:44:PM »
There are so many reasons for me. I can try to list them, but I will probably forget some points.

1. I don´t think that Jeremy would have been able to enter the farmhouse and EXPECT to control three aduts and two children. With an accomplice I can see it, alone, no; but since the case against Jeremy is that he committed the murders alone, I have to conclude that he couldn´t have done it on his own - or had the "guts".

Funny that you see Sheila as capable of this but not Jeremy.  In any event this is precisley why the time of 3AM was chosen.  The time of 3AM while eveyrone was asleep was precisely so that the killings would be easily managed,  trying it daytime with everyone up would be much more difficult. 

2. Cannot see what Sheila was doing while Jeremy was killing off the rest of her family - just waiting her turn? I don´t think so!"

Maybe like the boys she didn't wake up.  Ann Eaton says she can't imagine what happened in her room that Jeremy was scared to go in. She was heavily medicated so likely slept like a log.  Maybe he had to wake her up and drag her out of her room.

If she did wake up she probably was looking at her wounded mother or tending to her wounded mother as the men were busy fighting in the kitchen.  Otherwise maybe she went to check on her children to make sure they wer eunharmed and asleep still.

There are many different possibilities.

3.Sheila´s appearance in death and the way she was shot. She looks vastly different than her parents. Nevill and June looked messy with an air of despair about them. Sheila looked at peace and tranquil, not a trace of fight, it is all so neat to look at that it has to strike you. How could Jeremy manage that - how could he manage to shoot her in such an awkward position?".

She was heavily medicated, it is easy to imagine her not putting up a struggle considering she was tranquilized.  I suggest you read more about her medication and the zombie like state it can put people in. 

4.The fact that Sheila was shot twice speaks against Jeremy having done it if he wanted to stage a suicide. What moron shoots a victim twice and expects it to be ruled a suicide?"

It is quite true that there are not many multiple shot suicides.  Most people choose the head or chest for a shot so succeed and those who fail typically don't shoot again they are saved.  The few who fail the first shot and then try again virtually always change the location to the head or chest to make sure the second time is not a failure.  They very rarely select the same location.  Let than 10% shoot themselves in the neck.  I can't find any cases of people who failed the first time in the neck and chose the same location the second time.  So this actually speaks against suicide as opposed to Jeremy's innocence.

After the first shot she was still breathing and potentially could be revived by medical personnel for all he knew.  He had a choice, either shoot her again and risk her living and telling the truth about what happened and risk people believing her or shooting her again. He chose the latter quite clearly. In the choice of whether to risk her living it is easy to see he would take that option even though it speaks against suicide because the alternative is worse.   

I can list a number of stupid things done some of which were the result of bad planning and ignorance others from what we in the military call first contact.  There is a rule, no plan survives first contact intact.  It means circumstances change and some things can't be foreseen.  It is why alternative plans must be thought up.  Not counting the bullets in the box that he stuck in the kitchen to make sure there were not too many left was poor planning.  The first shot not being fatal immediately was a result of poor execution and a second shot was simply adapting to the situation.   

5.Julie. If Jeremy had really told her so much about his plans of killing his family, she would have warned the Bambers and Sheila - as we know, she did not. Or did she really think it was all right to kill them all off including the little boys she had read bed-time stories.

Julie insists she doesn't think he was serious or that he was actually capable of doing it.  The more important thing is why it took her so long afterwards for her conscience to get her to talk and if he marrie dher like she wanted would she have remained silent.  This doesn't establish Jeremy is innocent though it merely speaks to her moral fiber if she could have remained happy wih someone she knew was a murderer.  She didn't mind he was a crook so that alone says she isn't so upstanding.

But that doesn't make her claims not credible the claims have to be wieghed in their own right against the evidence and in that regard they are credible and there is evidence to support he was the killer.  This wa snot a case where her word alone was trusted. 


6.The fact that the police initially and for quite a while saw the case as a murder-suicide case. The evidence must have supported that.

This is one of the worst arguments yet.  The fact police believed his story and frame at first before all the evidence was processed means nothing at all.  A tremendous amount of evidence was developed afterwards including the fact that Nevill would have been unable to speak because of his injuries so the entire phone call from Nevill was challenged.  Finding out he was shot first in the bedroom then kitchen made  abig deal as well as the struggle in the kitchen and much more.  Even the fact that the box of ammo still had 30 bullets left and couldn't it 25 bullets had been used from it.

This doesn't even take into account the evidence of the suppressor, Julie and much more.  Police assumptions before the evidence if fully evaliuated doesn't prove a thing and is meaningless. It has no weight in court because it is meaningless so should not have any weight with us. 

7.The way the most crucial piece of evidence was found and handled by relatives who had A LOT to gain by a guilty verdict. Found after police already had searched gun cupboard.

you have not provided any evidence against the suppressor.  Saying you don't like how it was found is not enough to challenge it.  The fact of the matter is that police testified they didn't look for a suppressor they didn't say no suppressor was in there.  To discount it, it is necessary to establish 2 different things.

Since the fatal wound would have resulted in back spatter in the weapon and none was found this means the defense needed to establish that there was a reaosnable probability that blood wa sin the weapon but that police either cleaned it before it arrived at the lab to conceal evidence or th elab itself foudn blood but concealed that it had found Sheila's blood inside. 

Moreover it was necessary to establish a reasonable probablity that the blood found in the suppressor was planted.  The nature of the blood found is that is was wet when it entered the suppressor and dried to the baffles and the inside opening.  Moreover, microscopic drops dried on the first 8 baffles.  he only way for blood to get on 8 baffles like this is if it had been sprayed which there is no way to accidentally have that happen.  Taking a dropper of blood and dripping it in would not even acocunt dfor the blood distribution it had to be sprayed.  It would take a great deal of knowledge to know it had to be sprayed and to figure out a way to spray it so that it would be distributed in the manner found.  it would also require obtaining Sheila's blood or knowing her blood type somehow and obtaining the same type of bool.  A great deal then is involved in trying to plant blood.  Alot of evidence would be required ot estbalish the blood could have been planted let alone that there was a reaosnable probability it was planted.  You ignore this entire inquiry with the simplistic well it was found by relatives so could have been planted.  The defense burden to discount the evidence is much greater than you suggest which is why at trial the defense was unable to do so and instead tried to establish that the blood could have been a mixture of different blood types.  They failed but that was the best argument they could hope to make.


8.The way Jeremy behaved after the tragedy. If he had done it, he would have gone out of his way to appear innocent. As it was, he just kept on with his life as the arrogant young man he was.

He did try to appear innocent ith various lies he told but it backfired. Arrogant people often do not change their colors after committing crimes it is hard for a zebra to change its stripes.  Especially when one thinks he has committed a foolproof crime. If most criminals were as smart as they think they are then prisons would not have so many occupants.

9.Sheila´s illness. She was seriously mentally ill, contrary to what guilters say. She didn´t receive heavy medication for nothing, she wasn´t hospitalized for nothing. Paranoid Schizophrenics most frequently target their closest family if they have violent impulses. Sometimes they even plan to kill family members.

Many never target anyone and those who do are either not undergoing treatment, avoiding their medication or taking drugs that exacerbate delusions.

That is the case with Sheila, she had relapses when she stopped taking her medication and/or was taking drugs.  That is why she wa sput on a powerful tranquilizer that is injected.  She didn't have to take the medication herself so had no means to stop taking it.  It was in her system but she had not taken any other drugs at the time of her murders.  There is nothing at all in her system to counter the tranquilizer.  There is no explanation of what would agitate her as she was sleeping at 3Am let alone agitate her so much she would get up and try to kill everyone in their beds.

This combined with the lack of physical evidence to estbalish she had been invovled in the struggle with Nevill, the fact he could not have made the call as claimed and other evidence like the suppressor as a whole speaks to her innocence.   


10.The "coincidence" that Sheila said: "All people are evil and must die". The fact that she thought her sons were the "Devil´s children", that they were "women haters", that she was afraid they would rape and kill her show with all clarity that something was seriously wrong. It should have raised alarm bells, she should not have been allowed to be with them unsupervised! As it was, the doctors washed their hands after the fact, claiming that Sheila would never harm her children. Children who had bruises, were neglected and had dark and strange thoughts themselves, which anyone can see for themselves from their sinister drawings.

Much of what you are talking about was from 1983.  She didn't tlak about her fmaily at all in her last hospital stay.  She thought everyone was evil so instead fo trying to kill as many peopel as she could including Jeremy at dinner she waits till everyone is a sleep and then tries to kill just her family and then herself.  It doesn't fit at all what those treating her say.  You selectively take some of what they say but try to twist it for your own purposes.

Sorry but everythign you wrote deomonstrates you are not objectively looking at the facts but rather a blind advocate for Jeremy cherry picking anything you can think of.

You can be an advocate all you want but if you want to be convincing then you need to try a lot harder looking in much more detail at the really important foundations of the case not throwing pebbles.

I gave you a blueprin of what would need ot be estbalished to challenge the supporessor I doubt you will find an expert to help or even much evidence to try to suggest what I described happened but that is where you would need to start if you want to make a serious effort.

 

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44294
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2014, 07:45:PM »
If Julie was lying it means one of three things -

Julie convinced experienced officer Stan Jones & the rest of Essex Police. They believed her lies & thought she was telling the truth.

The police told her to lie & forced her to do so.

The police knew she was lying. But assisted her to do this as they wanted Jeremy convicted.


I do not believe Julie was smart enough to convince the police if she was lying. Or the police stupid enough to believe her.

Julie approached the police a month after the massacre. The police had nothing to force her to lie.

So the only reason Julies lies got through the police was that they were trying to frame Jeremy. They knew they needed Julie to frame Jeremy and assisted her in lying & creating a false WS.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 08:07:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48670
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #247 on: May 12, 2014, 07:54:PM »
Schizophrenics are known for staying awake all night. I know one who does.

June was a very poor sleeper who would have heard a pin drop,,so would have been alerted to what went on.

Sheila did NOT have her prescribed medication in her system,,such as the 30mg Anafranil which she was supposed to have taken at night-time. All she had was a trace of Halpol which had been injected intramuscularly 2/3 weeks before,,,,and of course the cannabis,,so she wasn't " drugged up to the hilt,,nor drowsy------------just in a pretty dangerous state of mind at that time.

Offline Alias

  • Editor
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9435
  • What is in those 200 boxes?
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #248 on: May 12, 2014, 08:08:PM »
Funny that you see Sheila as capable of this but not Jeremy.  In any event this is precisley why the time of 3AM was chosen.  The time of 3AM while eveyrone was asleep was precisely so that the killings would be easily managed,  trying it daytime with everyone up would be much more difficult. 

Maybe like the boys she didn't wake up.  Ann Eaton says she can't imagine what happened in her room that Jeremy was scared to go in. She was heavily medicated so likely slept like a log.  Maybe he had to wake her up and drag her out of her room.

If she did wake up she probably was looking at her wounded mother or tending to her wounded mother as the men were busy fighting in the kitchen.  Otherwise maybe she went to check on her children to make sure they wer eunharmed and asleep still.

There are many different possibilities.

She was heavily medicated, it is easy to imagine her not putting up a struggle considering she was tranquilized.  I suggest you read more about her medication and the zombie like state it can put people in. 

It is quite true that there are not many multiple shot suicides.  Most people choose the head or chest for a shot so succeed and those who fail typically don't shoot again they are saved.  The few who fail the first shot and then try again virtually always change the location to the head or chest to make sure the second time is not a failure.  They very rarely select the same location.  Let than 10% shoot themselves in the neck.  I can't find any cases of people who failed the first time in the neck and chose the same location the second time.  So this actually speaks against suicide as opposed to Jeremy's innocence.

After the first shot she was still breathing and potentially could be revived by medical personnel for all he knew.  He had a choice, either shoot her again and risk her living and telling the truth about what happened and risk people believing her or shooting her again. He chose the latter quite clearly. In the choice of whether to risk her living it is easy to see he would take that option even though it speaks against suicide because the alternative is worse.   

I can list a number of stupid things done some of which were the result of bad planning and ignorance others from what we in the military call first contact.  There is a rule, no plan survives first contact intact.  It means circumstances change and some things can't be foreseen.  It is why alternative plans must be thought up.  Not counting the bullets in the box that he stuck in the kitchen to make sure there were not too many left was poor planning.  The first shot not being fatal immediately was a result of poor execution and a second shot was simply adapting to the situation.   

Julie insists she doesn't think he was serious or that he was actually capable of doing it.  The more important thing is why it took her so long afterwards for her conscience to get her to talk and if he marrie dher like she wanted would she have remained silent.  This doesn't establish Jeremy is innocent though it merely speaks to her moral fiber if she could have remained happy wih someone she knew was a murderer.  She didn't mind he was a crook so that alone says she isn't so upstanding.

But that doesn't make her claims not credible the claims have to be wieghed in their own right against the evidence and in that regard they are credible and there is evidence to support he was the killer.  This wa snot a case where her word alone was trusted. 


This is one of the worst arguments yet.  The fact police believed his story and frame at first before all the evidence was processed means nothing at all.  A tremendous amount of evidence was developed afterwards including the fact that Nevill would have been unable to speak because of his injuries so the entire phone call from Nevill was challenged.  Finding out he was shot first in the bedroom then kitchen made  abig deal as well as the struggle in the kitchen and much more.  Even the fact that the box of ammo still had 30 bullets left and couldn't it 25 bullets had been used from it.

This doesn't even take into account the evidence of the suppressor, Julie and much more.  Police assumptions before the evidence if fully evaliuated doesn't prove a thing and is meaningless. It has no weight in court because it is meaningless so should not have any weight with us. 

you have not provided any evidence against the suppressor.  Saying you don't like how it was found is not enough to challenge it.  The fact of the matter is that police testified they didn't look for a suppressor they didn't say no suppressor was in there.  To discount it, it is necessary to establish 2 different things.

Since the fatal wound would have resulted in back spatter in the weapon and none was found this means the defense needed to establish that there was a reaosnable probability that blood wa sin the weapon but that police either cleaned it before it arrived at the lab to conceal evidence or th elab itself foudn blood but concealed that it had found Sheila's blood inside. 

Moreover it was necessary to establish a reasonable probablity that the blood found in the suppressor was planted.  The nature of the blood found is that is was wet when it entered the suppressor and dried to the baffles and the inside opening.  Moreover, microscopic drops dried on the first 8 baffles.  he only way for blood to get on 8 baffles like this is if it had been sprayed which there is no way to accidentally have that happen.  Taking a dropper of blood and dripping it in would not even acocunt dfor the blood distribution it had to be sprayed.  It would take a great deal of knowledge to know it had to be sprayed and to figure out a way to spray it so that it would be distributed in the manner found.  it would also require obtaining Sheila's blood or knowing her blood type somehow and obtaining the same type of bool.  A great deal then is involved in trying to plant blood.  Alot of evidence would be required ot estbalish the blood could have been planted let alone that there was a reaosnable probability it was planted.  You ignore this entire inquiry with the simplistic well it was found by relatives so could have been planted.  The defense burden to discount the evidence is much greater than you suggest which is why at trial the defense was unable to do so and instead tried to establish that the blood could have been a mixture of different blood types.  They failed but that was the best argument they could hope to make.


He did try to appear innocent ith various lies he told but it backfired. Arrogant people often do not change their colors after committing crimes it is hard for a zebra to change its stripes.  Especially when one thinks he has committed a foolproof crime. If most criminals were as smart as they think they are then prisons would not have so many occupants.

Many never target anyone and those who do are either not undergoing treatment, avoiding their medication or taking drugs that exacerbate delusions.

That is the case with Sheila, she had relapses when she stopped taking her medication and/or was taking drugs.  That is why she wa sput on a powerful tranquilizer that is injected.  She didn't have to take the medication herself so had no means to stop taking it.  It was in her system but she had not taken any other drugs at the time of her murders.  There is nothing at all in her system to counter the tranquilizer.  There is no explanation of what would agitate her as she was sleeping at 3Am let alone agitate her so much she would get up and try to kill everyone in their beds.

This combined with the lack of physical evidence to estbalish she had been invovled in the struggle with Nevill, the fact he could not have made the call as claimed and other evidence like the suppressor as a whole speaks to her innocence.   


Much of what you are talking about was from 1983.  She didn't tlak about her fmaily at all in her last hospital stay.  She thought everyone was evil so instead fo trying to kill as many peopel as she could including Jeremy at dinner she waits till everyone is a sleep and then tries to kill just her family and then herself.  It doesn't fit at all what those treating her say.  You selectively take some of what they say but try to twist it for your own purposes.

Sorry but everythign you wrote deomonstrates you are not objectively looking at the facts but rather a blind advocate for Jeremy cherry picking anything you can think of.

You can be an advocate all you want but if you want to be convincing then you need to try a lot harder looking in much more detail at the really important foundations of the case not throwing pebbles.

I gave you a blueprin of what would need ot be estbalished to challenge the supporessor I doubt you will find an expert to help or even much evidence to try to suggest what I described happened but that is where you would need to start if you want to make a serious effort.

Good Lord Almighty, this is a long post! Haven´t even read it all yet (don´t have tine RIGHT now), but a couple of things:
It makes a big difference to me whether you are already inside a house and whether you creep into it in the dead of night.
If you are already in the house, you know where people are, and the people in the house expect the sounds you make moving around. If you are an intruder, you make/risk making them aware by unexpected sounds.
There is also a big difference between controlling (or expecting to control) three adults versus two.

Why would Jeremy "drag" Sheila into their parents´ bedroom to kill her there? To upset her at the sight of all the blood and her dead mother? Doean´t make much sense to me.

Will read your post more thoroughly at a later time.  :)

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #249 on: May 12, 2014, 08:08:PM »
Scipio

you say above that Julie did not think he could do it or was serious

And yet she said his about the night of the murder

 told him sleepily to go back to bed and he said bye honey I love you lots. I then put the phone down. I particularly remember the phrase ‘everything is going well’ I then got into bed and laid there for a few minutes when I suddenly came to my senses and realised what he had said.

PAGE 13

In my view he was telling me they were all dead. I immediately got out of bed and I spoke to my friend Susan. I don’t know if she came into my room or we met on the landing. She was very cross and complained about Jeremy phoning at a stupid time. She asked me what was wrong as apparently I looked concerned. I told her that I didn’t know but there was something wrong at the farm.
She said again what was wrong. We then all went back to our beds. I have since spoken to Susan and I feel sure that she told me the time that Jeremy phoned was 3:12am.
I lay in bed but did not go to sleep as I knew that Jeremy had murdered his family


So according to her own words - on the night she KNEW he had murdered his family. And yet she went to the morgue and saw the twins with the police - so she could have said something then.

Or perhaps this statement is not true?



Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33771
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #250 on: May 12, 2014, 08:12:PM »
Funny that you see Sheila as capable of this but not Jeremy.  In any event this is precisley why the time of 3AM was chosen.  The time of 3AM while eveyrone was asleep was precisely so that the killings would be easily managed,  trying it daytime with everyone up would be much more difficult. 

Maybe like the boys she didn't wake up.  Ann Eaton says she can't imagine what happened in her room that Jeremy was scared to go in. She was heavily medicated so likely slept like a log.  Maybe he had to wake her up and drag her out of her room.

If she did wake up she probably was looking at her wounded mother or tending to her wounded mother as the men were busy fighting in the kitchen.  Otherwise maybe she went to check on her children to make sure they wer eunharmed and asleep still.

There are many different possibilities.

She was heavily medicated, it is easy to imagine her not putting up a struggle considering she was tranquilized.  I suggest you read more about her medication and the zombie like state it can put people in. 

It is quite true that there are not many multiple shot suicides.  Most people choose the head or chest for a shot so succeed and those who fail typically don't shoot again they are saved.  The few who fail the first shot and then try again virtually always change the location to the head or chest to make sure the second time is not a failure.  They very rarely select the same location.  Let than 10% shoot themselves in the neck.  I can't find any cases of people who failed the first time in the neck and chose the same location the second time.  So this actually speaks against suicide as opposed to Jeremy's innocence.

After the first shot she was still breathing and potentially could be revived by medical personnel for all he knew.  He had a choice, either shoot her again and risk her living and telling the truth about what happened and risk people believing her or shooting her again. He chose the latter quite clearly. In the choice of whether to risk her living it is easy to see he would take that option even though it speaks against suicide because the alternative is worse.   

I can list a number of stupid things done some of which were the result of bad planning and ignorance others from what we in the military call first contact.  There is a rule, no plan survives first contact intact.  It means circumstances change and some things can't be foreseen.  It is why alternative plans must be thought up.  Not counting the bullets in the box that he stuck in the kitchen to make sure there were not too many left was poor planning.  The first shot not being fatal immediately was a result of poor execution and a second shot was simply adapting to the situation.   

Julie insists she doesn't think he was serious or that he was actually capable of doing it.  The more important thing is why it took her so long afterwards for her conscience to get her to talk and if he marrie dher like she wanted would she have remained silent.  This doesn't establish Jeremy is innocent though it merely speaks to her moral fiber if she could have remained happy wih someone she knew was a murderer.  She didn't mind he was a crook so that alone says she isn't so upstanding.

But that doesn't make her claims not credible the claims have to be wieghed in their own right against the evidence and in that regard they are credible and there is evidence to support he was the killer.  This wa snot a case where her word alone was trusted. 


This is one of the worst arguments yet.  The fact police believed his story and frame at first before all the evidence was processed means nothing at all.  A tremendous amount of evidence was developed afterwards including the fact that Nevill would have been unable to speak because of his injuries so the entire phone call from Nevill was challenged.  Finding out he was shot first in the bedroom then kitchen made  abig deal as well as the struggle in the kitchen and much more.  Even the fact that the box of ammo still had 30 bullets left and couldn't it 25 bullets had been used from it.

This doesn't even take into account the evidence of the suppressor, Julie and much more.  Police assumptions before the evidence if fully evaliuated doesn't prove a thing and is meaningless. It has no weight in court because it is meaningless so should not have any weight with us. 

you have not provided any evidence against the suppressor.  Saying you don't like how it was found is not enough to challenge it.  The fact of the matter is that police testified they didn't look for a suppressor they didn't say no suppressor was in there.  To discount it, it is necessary to establish 2 different things.

Since the fatal wound would have resulted in back spatter in the weapon and none was found this means the defense needed to establish that there was a reaosnable probability that blood wa sin the weapon but that police either cleaned it before it arrived at the lab to conceal evidence or th elab itself foudn blood but concealed that it had found Sheila's blood inside. 

Moreover it was necessary to establish a reasonable probablity that the blood found in the suppressor was planted.  The nature of the blood found is that is was wet when it entered the suppressor and dried to the baffles and the inside opening.  Moreover, microscopic drops dried on the first 8 baffles.  he only way for blood to get on 8 baffles like this is if it had been sprayed which there is no way to accidentally have that happen.  Taking a dropper of blood and dripping it in would not even acocunt dfor the blood distribution it had to be sprayed.  It would take a great deal of knowledge to know it had to be sprayed and to figure out a way to spray it so that it would be distributed in the manner found.  it would also require obtaining Sheila's blood or knowing her blood type somehow and obtaining the same type of bool.  A great deal then is involved in trying to plant blood.  Alot of evidence would be required ot estbalish the blood could have been planted let alone that there was a reaosnable probability it was planted.  You ignore this entire inquiry with the simplistic well it was found by relatives so could have been planted.  The defense burden to discount the evidence is much greater than you suggest which is why at trial the defense was unable to do so and instead tried to establish that the blood could have been a mixture of different blood types.  They failed but that was the best argument they could hope to make.


He did try to appear innocent ith various lies he told but it backfired. Arrogant people often do not change their colors after committing crimes it is hard for a zebra to change its stripes.  Especially when one thinks he has committed a foolproof crime. If most criminals were as smart as they think they are then prisons would not have so many occupants.

Many never target anyone and those who do are either not undergoing treatment, avoiding their medication or taking drugs that exacerbate delusions.

That is the case with Sheila, she had relapses when she stopped taking her medication and/or was taking drugs.  That is why she wa sput on a powerful tranquilizer that is injected.  She didn't have to take the medication herself so had no means to stop taking it.  It was in her system but she had not taken any other drugs at the time of her murders.  There is nothing at all in her system to counter the tranquilizer.  There is no explanation of what would agitate her as she was sleeping at 3Am let alone agitate her so much she would get up and try to kill everyone in their beds.

This combined with the lack of physical evidence to estbalish she had been invovled in the struggle with Nevill, the fact he could not have made the call as claimed and other evidence like the suppressor as a whole speaks to her innocence.   


Much of what you are talking about was from 1983.  She didn't tlak about her fmaily at all in her last hospital stay.  She thought everyone was evil so instead fo trying to kill as many peopel as she could including Jeremy at dinner she waits till everyone is a sleep and then tries to kill just her family and then herself.  It doesn't fit at all what those treating her say.  You selectively take some of what they say but try to twist it for your own purposes.

Sorry but everythign you wrote deomonstrates you are not objectively looking at the facts but rather a blind advocate for Jeremy cherry picking anything you can think of.

You can be an advocate all you want but if you want to be convincing then you need to try a lot harder looking in much more detail at the really important foundations of the case not throwing pebbles.

I gave you a blueprin of what would need ot be estbalished to challenge the supporessor I doubt you will find an expert to help or even much evidence to try to suggest what I described happened but that is where you would need to start if you want to make a serious effort.


Scipio, I'm really not certain what you see as being "heavily medicated" Sheila, if anything was UNDER medicated. I can't imagine Sheila would have left her boys to attend to a mother she possibly saw as being the cause of some of her problems. I believe the pm found traces of substances which had nothing to do with her prescribed drugs, several of which she was failing to take. Sheila had obviously planned for a happy future for herself and her boys whilst she was in hospital. ONE of the reasons she requested a reduction in meds was because she didn't want her biological mother to see her in a drowsy state but the happy ever after relationship with her mother never happened, neither did her much hoped for reconciliation with her ex husband. It sounds as if her fragile world was falling apart round her ears.

Random thoughts here. How seriously do you believe Julie's conscience would have got to her had Jeremy put the ring on her finger I believe she wanted?

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44294
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #251 on: May 12, 2014, 08:13:PM »
Scipio

you say above that Julie did not think he could do it or was serious

And yet she said his about the night of the murder

 told him sleepily to go back to bed and he said bye honey I love you lots. I then put the phone down. I particularly remember the phrase ‘everything is going well’ I then got into bed and laid there for a few minutes when I suddenly came to my senses and realised what he had said.

PAGE 13

In my view he was telling me they were all dead. I immediately got out of bed and I spoke to my friend Susan. I don’t know if she came into my room or we met on the landing. She was very cross and complained about Jeremy phoning at a stupid time. She asked me what was wrong as apparently I looked concerned. I told her that I didn’t know but there was something wrong at the farm.
She said again what was wrong. We then all went back to our beds. I have since spoken to Susan and I feel sure that she told me the time that Jeremy phoned was 3:12am.
I lay in bed but did not go to sleep as I knew that Jeremy had murdered his family


So according to her own words - on the night she KNEW he had murdered his family. And yet she went to the morgue and saw the twins with the police - so she could have said something then.

Or perhaps this statement is not true?

How do you think Julies lies got through the police ?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #252 on: May 12, 2014, 08:14:PM »
Scipio

Are you saying that just because something happened in 1983  it could not happen in 1985?

I don't quite understand that -do not people with this illness have relapses / episodes ?

What about what happened at the monastry ?

here is also the statement I talked about earlier , because I prefer documentary evidence rather than reading books ( some people on here will get that) ;)

The whole statement is in the archives /statements - it is an interesting read.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 08:33:PM by jansus »

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #253 on: May 12, 2014, 08:18:PM »
Why are you suggesting, for the secind time, that julie way mentally ill? Perhaps you know something we don't.

Most women know when a relationship is in decline. I think Julie was hankering for for a ring so she clung on.

I think a woman that determined WOULD be capable of vindictiveness when she saw her planned future disappear.

OR did they encourage her to expand her story to save herself from standing in the dock along side Jeremy.

I believe she undoubetedly was.

It seems to me their relationship was in decline for many months.

They were originally engaged but then he broke off the engagement supposedly because his family wanted him to get married and he was so immature he decided to rebel by breaking off the engagement. 

I'm nto a female but it seems ot be the reaction of a female would not be good if you broke off an engagement to just go back to dating.  The supposed reason was also immature though it cast light into his animosity with his parents.   

I have news for people, there is no such thing as a saint witness.  Witnesses always have their own motivations and their bias is just one piece of the puzzle in evaluating their testimony and claims.

Julie was in love with a guy who had plenty of issues which alone says something about her.  She claims she was disturbed y him telling he rhe wanted to kill his family but not enough to break up with him.  Even if you assume it is just talk do you want to be with someone who feels that way about his family?  Worse yet even after he told her he had them killed she stuck around for a while.  A normal person would have ran.  She also knew about the robbery and had no problem with it. 

Since his faily was supposedly the reason for the marriage being cancelled maybe she was glad in a way and expected they would get married.  In an event clearly the murders distubed her and contributed to a breakdown in their relationship.  1) the actions disturbed her and 2) he began acting carefree and not caring that his new found freedom and crass behavior towards the victims and his remaining family was harming his relationship.  Maybe if he asked her to marry him and tried to make her feel better about the murders she would have ignored her conscience but she had no reason to once they were apart.

That doesn't mean she is lying though.  It just means she chose not to harbor his secrets anymore once there was nothing in it for her to conceal it.  In that sense the breakup did have to do with her coming forward I think anyone who says otherwise has a tough burden to try to prove otherwise.

Looking at the actual claim itself is most important in weighing the credibility and in that regard her claims are too detailed to be likely madeup and not of a character that someone would make up.  Saying he admitte dhe did it would be good enough making up a hitman claim makes no sense and naming a hitman who could easily be proved innocent makes even less sense.  It ends up being more a hassle for the hitman than Jeremy to just make such up.

Moreover she claims he told her details about th emurders that the police never told her.  Sure there are other ways she could have learned but there is no evidence she went out of her way to do so.  his is where police really went wrong.  If they had not released certain details then jeremy knowing such details would have resulted in even stronger proof against him.  They missed such opportunity by blabbing finer details.  Many of their mistakes helped Jeremy out.
   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?
« Reply #254 on: May 12, 2014, 08:20:PM »
How do you think Julies lies got through the police ?



They were trying to build a case ? Perhaps that is why it took 30 sessions to get to the end result?

you could say the same thing about Jeremy - if he is guilty why did they not see through his lies straight away?