A Circle of Lies...

[Adam]

Actually her original statement said 3.30  - so OWS were

3.10 JB gets call from NB - panicking and not quite sure what the whole call was really about - he tries to call his father back   several times and can not get through.  Then still not sure whether to call police ( no mention of any shooting only the fact that Sheila had the gun)  He decides to call the police . Now we have no idea of timings because the EP changed logs - There are documents to prove this - and so are there calls at 3.26 or 3.36 or both ? Was the clock wrong ? One PC says yes it was another says no.So here we have to rely on Police evidence that has been changed or not even released - so two cars dispatched - one at 3.35 - before they say JB even called.  So very possible that JM did receive the call at 3.30 as per her original WS

So the question is if the police are telling the truth SC had from 3.10 to the arrival of the police 3.45? to kill 4 people - possible yes.

If the police are not telling the truth and NB did make the other call at 3.26 then we are assuming that no one had been killed by this time? Is that assumption correct ? We don't know.

Also are we correct in the assumption that no one was killed after the police had arrived? What could they hear outside?

The fact is that the police had been criticised for changing logs etc - but some of those logs and tapes have never even been released - and that is the point -we still do not have all the information to unravel crucial timings - so for people like Adam to be throwing around timings and using them as fact is misleading . If the police can not or will not confirm all the timings then why should he use them as basis for his scenarios.

Why would the police never, ever say they got a call from Neville ?

The first month it was murder/suicide. Taff Jones was adament.

When the relatives told the police of their fears, the police just had to tell them about Nevilles call. The relatives would know it was Sheila & would not bother handing the silencer in.

A call from Neville & it is case closed. An innocent man stays innocent. EP do not risk getting caught trying to frame an innocent man.

[Jan]

Why would the police never, ever say they got a call from Neville ?

The first month it was murder/suicide. Taff Jones was adament.

When the relatives told the police of their fears, the police just had to tell them about Nevilles call. The relatives would know it was Sheila & would not bother handing the silencer in.

A call from Neville & it is case closed. An innocent man stays innocent. EP do not risk getting caught trying to frame an innocent man.

get it right Adam - I never said that call existed - I said IF it did . The police changed logs and were proved to have done that - so yet again they have weaved a web so the truth is difficult to establish - So WHY did they change logs? Why did one officer say the clock was wrong and the other say it was never wrong?Why did they not release the audio tapes so they could put this all to bed once and for all ? Why did they change exhibit numbers etc etc .

[Adam]

get it right Adam - I never said that call existed - I said IF it did . The police changed logs and were proved to have done that - so yet again they have weaved a web so the truth is difficult to establish - So WHY did they change logs? Why did one officer say the clock was wrong and the other say it was never wrong?Why did they not release the audio tapes so they could put this all to bed once and for all ? Why did they change exhibit numbers etc etc .

Why frame Jeremy ?

The first thing the police would have said to Jeremy on the night was 'Jeremy, you're father also rang the police, he told us...'.

But the police did not say that. Instead Jeremy stuck resolutely for years to saying Neville liked to keep things in the family so did not ring the police.

[Jan]

Why frame Jeremy ?

The first thing the police would have said to Jeremy on the night was 'Jeremy, you're father also rang the police, he told us...'.

But the police did not say that. Instead Jeremy stuck resolutely for years to saying Neville liked to keep things in the family so did not ring the police.

For once and only once I agree with you - and at least I admit it - I am not sure NB did ring the police for that one reason only I think the police would have mentioned it to JB .
 And in fact I think that JB ever did say his father rang in the first few years because 1) he would not have known unless told 2) It was only when the police log came to light he started to question it.

As the police logs have been PROVEN to be a mess then it is their fault that this question can still not be answered.



 
The rest of what you say I don't agree with one single little thing.

[lookout]

Why frame Jeremy ?

The first thing the police would have said to Jeremy on the night was 'Jeremy, you're father also rang the police, he told us...'.

But the police did not say that. Instead Jeremy stuck resolutely for years to saying Neville liked to keep things in the family so did not ring the police.

Why not frame him ? Everyone would benefit,,and did,,but the jury didn't know this bit.

Why did the prosecution insist that at no time did Jeremy receive the call from his father ? When it's quite clear that Neville did indeed call Jeremy.
It's because both calls had been rolled into one..as at the time it had been entered on the same call,,,,and it wasn't until 2002 that it was found that Neville rang Jeremy from the office phone upstairs because it had a last number redial facility,,which was the call to the police.

As for your last paragraph,,you must really use that grey matter of yours. It was a life and death situation,so Neville,like anyone else,would phone the police.
No,,Neville never liked officialdom,,as he'd probably realised that if he couldn't solve something himself,then he'd rather not bother going through a heap of red-tape and nonsense.I had a pa-in-law like him,,so I understand.

[Adam]

For once and only once I agree with you - and at least I admit it - I am not sure NB did ring the police for that one reason only I think the police would have mentioned it to JB .
 And in fact I think that JB ever did say his father rang in the first few years because 1) he would not have known unless told 2) It was only when the police log came to light he started to question it.

As the police logs have been PROVEN to be a mess then it is their fault that this question can still not be answered.



 
The rest of what you say I don't agree with one single little thing.

So Jeremy is contradicting his own claims from 1985.

On the night Jeremy did not ask the police if they had received a call from Neville. Which was a real possibility in the circumstances.

Did Jeremy already know Neville had made no such call as he was the killer ? 

Or was he just so sure Neville would not have rang the police, even when guns, crazy women & bullets are involved. How could he be so sure ?

Either way, he changed his mind years later.

[lookout]

I shall repeat what I said.Nevilles' call to the police was the last entry on the " last number re-dial " phone in the upstairs office. This information only came to light in 2002,,and is supported by documentation.
Why do you think it took so long in establishing that information ?

[Adam]

Why not frame him ? Everyone would benefit,,and did,,but the jury didn't know this bit.

Why did the prosecution insist that at no time did Jeremy receive the call from his father ? When it's quite clear that Neville did indeed call Jeremy.
It's because both calls had been rolled into one..as at the time it had been entered on the same call,,,,and it wasn't until 2002 that it was found that Neville rang Jeremy from the office phone upstairs because it had a last number redial facility,,which was the call to the police.

As for your last paragraph,,you must really use that grey matter of yours. It was a life and death situation,so Neville,like anyone else,would phone the police.
No,,Neville never liked officialdom,,as he'd probably realised that if he couldn't solve something himself,then he'd rather not bother going through a heap of red-tape and nonsense.I had a pa-in-law like him,,so I understand.

How would EP benefit ?

[susan]

Adam the same way they did when they had the Birmingham 6 convicted on false evidence .  Appease the public and the press they had solved the case

[Adam]

Why not frame him ? Everyone would benefit,,and did,,but the jury didn't know this bit.

Why did the prosecution insist that at no time did Jeremy receive the call from his father ? When it's quite clear that Neville did indeed call Jeremy.
It's because both calls had been rolled into one..as at the time it had been entered on the same call,,,,and it wasn't until 2002 that it was found that Neville rang Jeremy from the office phone upstairs because it had a last number redial facility,,which was the call to the police.

As for your last paragraph,,you must really use that grey matter of yours. It was a life and death situation,so Neville,like anyone else,would phone the police.
No,,Neville never liked officialdom,,as he'd probably realised that if he couldn't solve something himself,then he'd rather not bother going through a heap of red-tape and nonsense.I had a pa-in-law like him,,so I understand.

Neville called Jeremy from his office phone upstairs. I did not know that. But there were no BT phone records in 1985.

Had Sheila gone downstairs with the rifle. Neville & June unable to restrain her.

[lookout]

How would EP benefit ?

Jobs for the boys,,gifts all round,,and a full pension on retirement for securing a phoney conviction.
One of the officers received the job of a security officer once the caravan site was in the hands of the relatives. Was this pre-planned/arranged, I ask myself.You can bet your life it was !

[Jan]

So Jeremy is contradicting his own claims from 1985.

On the night Jeremy did not ask the police if they had received a call from Neville. Which was a real possibility in the circumstances.

Did Jeremy already know Neville had made no such call as he was the killer ? 

Or was he just so sure Neville would not have rang the police, even when guns, crazy women & bullets are involved. How could he be so sure ?





Show me the proof that in 1985 JB claimed that his father had actually called the police.

Either way, he changed his mind years later.

[Adam]

Eh ?

I never said Jeremy claimed his father called the police in 1985.

He changed his mind years later.

[Jan]

Eh ?

I never said Jeremy claimed his father called the police in 1985.

He changed his mind years later.

what did you mean by he contradicted his claims from 1985 then - be specific and explain this post.

[grahameb]

So Jeremy is contradicting his own claims from 1985.

On the night Jeremy did not ask the police if they had received a call from Neville. Which was a real possibility in the circumstances.

Did Jeremy already know Neville had made no such call as he was the killer ? 

Or was he just so sure Neville would not have rang the police, even when guns, crazy women & bullets are involved. How could he be so sure ?

Either way, he changed his mind years later.

The reason Jeremy did not challenge police concerning Neville's alleged phone call to the police on the day of the murders was that he didn't know of it then. The second telephone log came to light years after the event. Jeremy was over the moon about it, thinking that the log showed that Nevill had himself phoned the police. His legal team advised him not to use it in the appeal as it looked as if it was a copy of the first log. But he still thinking that it was proof that his father had phoned the police went ahead and used it.
That is the explanation of that. That log is just one thing that has come to light since the original trial. This is to enlighten you so that you do not mistakenly accuse Jeremy for the error.