Author Topic: Did Jeremy hate June ?  (Read 22608 times)

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Offline wilf

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2014, 08:16:AM »
a difficult relationship doesnot equate to hate.

wilf

Offline Jane

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2014, 08:42:AM »
The siblings had separate interests and Sheila was far more wrapped up in her own little world to be  jealous of Jeremy. True we don't really know what went on behind closed doors,but as Dr. Ferguson  believed Sheila had too much to live for to kill herself and take everyone with her,though admittedly Sheila's health is one of the Defence's strongest cards and I don't  blame them for playing it.


Steve, as they grew older, I'm certain that what you say is true but I'm talking about pre school children, a time when a child's undeveloped survival instincts are similar to those of a small animal if they fear their place in the heirarchy may be usurped.

I smile at your suggestion that Sheila's illness is a card played by the Defence. It is a given. It cannot be ignored. I would HAVE to take on board  -despite that I believe it to be the card YOU play- what Dr F said of her. Had the massacre occurred within a couple of weeks of her leaving the hospital his view of her would certainly have covered that time frame. She would still have been full of hope and hadn't yet requested a reduction in her meds. That over the next 16 weeks, those meds, reduced to a point where they weren't fully protecting her, MAY have made worse what was happening in her life and her ability to cope with it. I think it's useless to say that half as dozen specialists agreed with Dr F, in ther words of Ms M R-D, "well, they would, wouldn't they", they had nothing else to go on OTHER than Dr F's last assessment of her on which to base their findings.

We have discussed at length how concerned about her must June and Nevill have been. They hadn't spent time in her company since she'd stayed with them the previous September after coming out of hospital the fist time, so they can't have failed to notice the change in her. Her behaviour was erratic, veering between passive and withdrawn to hyper and aggressive. She showed no or little interest in the children or helping June in the house. She had a screaming hysterics at the monastery and threw a hissy fit at an electrician. All of this playing out within 2/3 days. In short, she was showing all the hallmarks of a woman who wasn't coping and had Dr F and his associates seen her then, I suspect their assessment of her would have been VERY different.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 09:02:AM by April »

Offline grahameb

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Re: Did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2014, 09:12:AM »
Its worth noting as well from her original statement
Thank you Jansus. That balances things out a great deal. Some who knew Jeremy far better than Mary Mugford and her nasty daughter.
I wonder why Barbara Wilson gave that interview against Jeremy in that hotch potch of a so called documentary a little while ago. A similar question: What hold have the relatives over her today? Yet one other question: What has changed? Did she lie in court? Did she lie on the video? If she fave false evidence in court then should she even after this length of time be charged with purgery?

Offline grahameb

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2014, 09:19:AM »
It is crystal clear to me from Barbara Wilson's original testimony plus the photograph published on the thread as well as other photographs in the photographic thread that Jeremy did not hate his mother June. I believe that Mary Mugford and her truculent daughter Julie are both lying in their testimonies. Possibly money is the motive, as it is well known that Julie Mugford had a love of filthy lucre.

Offline Jane

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2014, 09:19:AM »
Grahame, it can't be understated that as there is SUCH variance in what she says she could be speaking of two different people so ONE part has to be untrue.

Offline Jane

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2014, 09:23:AM »
It is crystal clear to me from Barbara Wilson's original testimony plus the photograph published on the thread as well as other photographs in the photographic thread that Jeremy did not hate his mother June. I believe that Mary Mugford and her truculent daughter Julie are both lying in their testimonies. Possibly money is the motive, as it is well known that Julie Mugford had a love of filthy lucre.



Well Mary was BOUND to defend her daughter's reputation. She wasn't going to allow her to be branded a liar, thief, drug dealer and gold digger, was she. Might one label it maternal collusion?

Offline lookout

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2014, 09:39:AM »
Poor Sheila.The more I hear about her illness,,the more it takes me back to my days of working in an " asylum ",as it was known then. Those poor women,,most of them young,had such tortured minds,it was heartbreaking,,and looking back over the years,it probably only began as a hormonal imbalance,,but those young women were " insane " and the drastic measures such as an injection of Paraldehyde which more or less knocked the poor souls cold. I remember being upset when this drug was first administered because I thought it was cruel,and the ward sister telling me to " pull myself together,that it had to be done ". Haloperidol is an old drug too,given intravenously,,and can't be given without a patients permission unless it comes under the Mental Health Act,then it doesn't become their own choice.
I often wonder if Sheila was ever sectioned ? Only her medical notes would supply such information.

Offline Alias

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Re: Did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2014, 12:20:PM »
Or it could be that June's smile was directed at the twins and  Jeremy had just entered the room,hence no chair(he looks as if he's stooping) and an inquisitiveness at trying to read June' s mind rather than a beaming smile. I would suggest that this  photograph was taken before the well of money ran dry and Jeremy saw his predestined future stretching out ahead of him.

I´ll explain what I see in the photo. First and foremost a happy June, very happy. I think she is happy because she has her whole immediate family gathered around her, many women love that more than anything.
I read in the body language of June and Jeremy that they are comfortable with each other (leaning against one anoter - if any of them had harsh feelings to the other, they would NOT do that, absolutely not!)
I see a son who is maturing well. He does not draw back from a family situation like this, like a teenage boy would, but participates willingly in this family situation by leaning forward, and even towards his mother (and probably he even got up from his seat at the dinner table to be on the photo with his mother). Perhaps also Jeremy was happy about the gathering of the family and even happy for June.
A totally harmless and normal family photo, but typically nons interpret something sinister into EVERYTHING Jeremy does, as if he is the Devil incarnate!

Steve, can you please explain to me what you mean by "predestined future."
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 01:13:PM by Alias »

Offline Roch

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2014, 12:56:PM »
Maybe somebody should play Adam at his own game and begin a thread called

'Why did Sheila hate June?'

Then everyone can switch to posting on that thread instead of this one.  Net result: one of the main topical threads is pro Jeremy in title, instead of pro guilter.


Offline lookout

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2014, 12:58:PM »
What a brilliant idea. ;D

Offline nugnug

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Re: Why did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #100 on: March 06, 2014, 01:13:PM »
Maybe somebody should play Adam at his own game and begin a thread called

'Why did Sheila hate June?'

Then everyone can switch to posting on that thread instead of this one.  Net result: one of the main topical threads is pro Jeremy in title, instead of pro guilter.

ill cerntanly do that.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #101 on: March 07, 2014, 09:18:PM »
I´ll explain what I see in the photo. First and foremost a happy June, very happy. I think she is happy because she has her whole immediate family gathered around her, many women love that more than anything.
I read in the body language of June and Jeremy that they are comfortable with each other (leaning against one anoter - if any of them had harsh feelings to the other, they would NOT do that, absolutely not!)
I see a son who is maturing well. He does not draw back from a family situation like this, like a teenage boy would, but participates willingly in this family situation by leaning forward, and even towards his mother (and probably he even got up from his seat at the dinner table to be on the photo with his mother). Perhaps also Jeremy was happy about the gathering of the family and even happy for June.
A totally harmless and normal family photo, but typically nons interpret something sinister into EVERYTHING Jeremy does, as if he is the Devil incarnate!

Steve, can you please explain to me what you mean by "predestined future."
Yes of course. Jeremy reasoned in his own mind that it was preferable to be in his shoes than most because of the money angle nothing else,as he reckoned up figures in his head at the Osea Road meetings,the one skill bequeathed to him by his natural father,who was otherwise similarly as cold as the son he gave away. Jeremy realized that one day he was expected to take over the Farm,but unbeknownst to his parents he was going to sell it anyway the moment he inherited. Psychologically we know he had a difficult time settling in at Gresham's,that establishment in his own words being harder to adapt to than Gartree Prison,but it must have been a shock too far to stomach when he learned Nevill's intentions of starting his son on the lowest rung of the ladder again,and something inside just snapped. He used the illnesses of June,Sheila and at the end Nevill to justify the slaughter,neatly tidying it up with Nicholas and Daniel's death,who would only grow up damaged under the influence of their mother,when subconsciously he must have realized their demise would lead him directly inheriting the Maida Vale flat and allowing Colin the opportunity to find regular employment along with a fresh start himself.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 09:22:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Jan

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Re: Did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2014, 10:03:PM »
I think you are over analysing ;D

Offline Jane

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Re: Did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #103 on: March 07, 2014, 10:09:PM »
I think you are over analysing ;D



I think he's endowing Jeremy with an introspection he wasn't capable of.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Did Jeremy hate June ?
« Reply #104 on: March 07, 2014, 10:59:PM »
Jeremy felt on his own at Gresham's after he divulged to a fellow pupil that he was adopted and subsequently became an object of ridicule by the sons of the East Anglian landed gentry,who labelled him "The Bastard". Jeremy didn't have the nous to respond but filed the comment away in his mind,whereupon he reclaimed a modicum of respect through his gun prowess.

I'm afraid these things are relevant and provide the backdrop to the tragedy which became infamous as the White House Farm murders.