Flake that Boutflour scraped off silencer, could have been one examined, at Lab'

[Kaldin]

All the blood was tested, including the bloodstains on the first 8 baffles, and the flake (separately), I will repost the Lab' document and diagram which was produced on 29th April 1986:-

Cheers. That would be interesting because I've seen nothing about the results on blood other than the flake.

[mike tesko]

All the blood was tested, including the bloodstains on the first 8 baffles, and the flake (separately), I will repost the Lab' document and diagram which was produced on 29th April 1986:-

Cheers. That would be interesting because I've seen nothing about the results on blood other than the flake.

I think the flake has to be treated as a separate entity to the remainder of the blood-staining found upon the first 8 baffle plates, because the four results, A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1, only relate to the examination of the flake, not to the examination of the remainder of the blood on the other baffle plates...

I think this is an area where the jury were mislead by the trial judge after they sent him a note questioning the possible origins of the blood group activity obtained from the flake - it was wrongly argued that all the blood found in the silencer was or could be from Sheila, but that some of the other blood could have originated from the parents...

The origin of the flake of blood (A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1)  was what was at stake, not the origin of the blood-staining found on the other baffle plates, since it was part of the defense case that any blood found inside the silencer originated from an intimate mixture of the parents bloods, and that Sheila could have removed the silencer after she shot them and killed herself by use of the rifle minus the silencer...

The case was turned upside down, and in favor o the prosecutions case, by the comments which were given to the jury by the trial judge after they had sent him the note with two questions on, about the origin of the blood found in the silencer - I think the jury's question was directed at the flake, but the judge took it upon himself to answer by referring to the blood from the flake and the blood staining on all the other baffles as being one and the same...

[mike tesko]

I do not think that the blood-staining found to be present on the first 8 baffle plates, got into the silencer, by the same process, as the small flake which produced the four blood group results, A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1...

But the court wrongly treated all of this blood as having got there into the silencer by the same process of backspatter...

Blood from one source, (above) did not mingle or mix with blood from the other source, otherwise all the blood found inside the silencer would have produced all the same blood grouping results...

in my opinion...

[Kaldin]

I think the flake has to be treated as a separate entity to the remainder of the blood-staining found upon the first 8 baffle plates, because the four results, A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1, only relate to the examination of the flake, not to the examination of the remainder of the blood on the other baffle plates...

I think this is an area where the jury were mislead by the trial judge after they sent him a note questioning the possible origins of the blood group activity obtained from the flake - it was wrongly argued that all the blood found in the silencer was or could be from Sheila, but that some of the other blood could have originated from the parents...

The origin of the flake of blood (A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1)  was what was at stake, not the origin of the blood-staining found on the other baffle plates, since it was part of the defense case that any blood found inside the silencer originated from an intimate mixture of the parents bloods, and that Sheila could have removed the silencer after she shot them and killed herself by use of the rifle minus the silencer...

The case was turned upside down, and in favor o the prosecutions case, by the comments which were given to the jury by the trial judge after they had sent him the note with two questions on, about the origin of the blood found in the silencer - I think the jury's question was directed at the flake, but the judge took it upon himself to answer by referring to the blood from the flake and the blood staining on all the other baffles as being one and the same...

I got the impression that the jury was told that the flake of blood most likely came from Sheila but that there was a remote possibility that it was a mixture of June and Nevill's blood. I haven't seen anything about the other blood in the silencer. I got the impression that once the flake had been analysed, there was no need to analyse the rest.

[mike tesko]

The discovery of a small flake of blood in the silencer (supposedly), and the fact that David Boutflour used a razor blade to scrape a small flake of blood, from the silencers end cap, could be inextricably linked, as far as I am concerned...

There is a very strong possibility that both were / are one and the same...

[Hartley]

The discovery of a small flake of blood in the silencer (supposedly), and the fact that David Boutflour used a razor blade to scrape a small flake of blood, from the silencers end cap, could be inextricably linked, as far as I am concerned...

There is a very strong possibility that both were / are one and the same...

Would you concede that there is a possibility that they are two different items?

[Kaldin]

The discovery of a small flake of blood in the silencer (supposedly), and the fact that David Boutflour used a razor blade to scrape a small flake of blood, from the silencers end cap, could be inextricably linked, as far as I am concerned...

There is a very strong possibility that both were / are one and the same...

That's possible. Are there any documents to indicate if the flake of blood in the silencer was a loose flake or if it had to be scraped from the inside surface? That would indicate if it was a separate one to the one that David Boutflour found on the outside.

[mike tesko]

I think the flake has to be treated as a separate entity to the remainder of the blood-staining found upon the first 8 baffle plates, because the four results, A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1, only relate to the examination of the flake, not to the examination of the remainder of the blood on the other baffle plates...

I think this is an area where the jury were mislead by the trial judge after they sent him a note questioning the possible origins of the blood group activity obtained from the flake - it was wrongly argued that all the blood found in the silencer was or could be from Sheila, but that some of the other blood could have originated from the parents...

The origin of the flake of blood (A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP 2-1)  was what was at stake, not the origin of the blood-staining found on the other baffle plates, since it was part of the defense case that any blood found inside the silencer originated from an intimate mixture of the parents bloods, and that Sheila could have removed the silencer after she shot them and killed herself by use of the rifle minus the silencer...

The case was turned upside down, and in favor o the prosecutions case, by the comments which were given to the jury by the trial judge after they had sent him the note with two questions on, about the origin of the blood found in the silencer - I think the jury's question was directed at the flake, but the judge took it upon himself to answer by referring to the blood from the flake and the blood staining on all the other baffles as being one and the same...

I got the impression that the jury was told that the flake of blood most likely came from Sheila but that there was a remote possibility that it was a mixture of June and Nevill's blood. I haven't seen anything about the other blood in the silencer. I got the impression that once the flake had been analysed, there was no need to analyse the rest.

-------------------------------------

There was other blood in the silencer which could have originated from the parents bloods, but the blood expert, John Hayward, was adamant that the blood from the flake came from only one source, and that was Sheila Caffell......

[mike tesko]

The discovery of a small flake of blood in the silencer (supposedly), and the fact that David Boutflour used a razor blade to scrape a small flake of blood, from the silencers end cap, could be inextricably linked, as far as I am concerned...

There is a very strong possibility that both were / are one and the same...

That's possible. Are there any documents to indicate if the flake of blood in the silencer was a loose flake or if it had to be scraped from the inside surface? That would indicate if it was a separate one to the one that David Boutflour found on the outside.

------------------------------------------

A loose flake, found between baffles one and two of the silencer when Fletcher dismantled it at the lab', on about 12th September 1985...

A document in my possession establishes that the flake which Fletcher refers to was a loose one, not scraped from blood staining found in that area...

[mike tesko]

There is no information, or claim that the ballistic expert scraped any blood from one of the baffles, in the form of a flake...

Similarly, no such evidence that the blood expert, John Hayward, did anything similar...

The flake was independent of the blood-staining found on the other 8 baffle plates inside the silencer, and the blood grouping between both sources was not the same...

[Kaldin]

A loose flake, found between baffles one and two of the silencer when Fletcher dismantled it at the lab', on about 12th September 1985...

A document in my possession establishes that the flake which Fletcher refers to was a loose one, not scraped from blood staining found in that area...

So in theory, that flake could have come from the outside of the silencer and fallen into it? That still doesn't get round the issue of it being Sheila's blood grouping.

[mike tesko]

A loose flake, found between baffles one and two of the silencer when Fletcher dismantled it at the lab', on about 12th September 1985...

A document in my possession establishes that the flake which Fletcher refers to was a loose one, not scraped from blood staining found in that area...

So in theory, that flake could have come from the outside of the silencer and fallen into it? That still doesn't get round the issue of it being Sheila's blood grouping.

--------------------------------

If the flake came from outside the silencer, the prosecution theory of back spatter to account for how Sheila's blood got into the silencer, is out of the window, and all the other arguments which the prosecutions case relied upon, such as the overall length of the weapon being too long to allow Sheila an opportunity to shoot herself even if she had wanted to? The prosecution would not have been able to also rely upon the suggestion that once Sheila was dead, that her killer removed the silencer from the end of the guns barrel and took it all the way downstairs to hide it in the gun cupboard...

[Kaldin]

A loose flake, found between baffles one and two of the silencer when Fletcher dismantled it at the lab', on about 12th September 1985...

A document in my possession establishes that the flake which Fletcher refers to was a loose one, not scraped from blood staining found in that area...

So in theory, that flake could have come from the outside of the silencer and fallen into it? That still doesn't get round the issue of it being Sheila's blood grouping.

--------------------------------

If the flake came from outside the silencer, the prosecution theory of back spatter to account for how Sheila's blood got into the silencer, is out of the window, and all the other arguments which the prosecutions case relied upon, such as the overall length of the weapon being too long to allow Sheila an opportunity to shoot herself even if she had wanted to? The prosecution would not have been able to also rely upon the suggestion that once Sheila was dead, that her killer removed the silencer from the end of the guns barrel and took it all the way downstairs to hide it in the gun cupboard...

But then how did Sheila's blood get on the outside of the moderator?

Also, there was other blood inside it, so the back spatter thing still holds up, even if the blood inside it didn't come from Sheila. It still shows that the silencer was used, and that it was removed and put in the cupboard.

[mike tesko]

Here is where the case started to go wrong for Jeremy, after the jury sent a note to the trial judge with two questions?

Jury's questions:-

(a) a perfect match of Sheila's blood

(b) What was the chance of the blood group being June and Ralph's mixing together?

[mike tesko]

A loose flake, found between baffles one and two of the silencer when Fletcher dismantled it at the lab', on about 12th September 1985...

A document in my possession establishes that the flake which Fletcher refers to was a loose one, not scraped from blood staining found in that area...

So in theory, that flake could have come from the outside of the silencer and fallen into it? That still doesn't get round the issue of it being Sheila's blood grouping.

--------------------------------

If the flake came from outside the silencer, the prosecution theory of back spatter to account for how Sheila's blood got into the silencer, is out of the window, and all the other arguments which the prosecutions case relied upon, such as the overall length of the weapon being too long to allow Sheila an opportunity to shoot herself even if she had wanted to? The prosecution would not have been able to also rely upon the suggestion that once Sheila was dead, that her killer removed the silencer from the end of the guns barrel and took it all the way downstairs to hide it in the gun cupboard...

But then how did Sheila's blood get on the outside of the moderator?

Also, there was other blood inside it, so the back spatter thing still holds up, even if the blood inside it didn't come from Sheila. It still shows that the silencer was used, and that it was removed and put in the cupboard.

--------------------------

It was part of the defense argument that the silencer could have been used, but that blood found inside it, was part of an intimate mixture of the parents blood, which would have allowed Sheila to remove the silencer from the gun after she used it on the gun to shoot the others, because it was too long for her to use on herself, and that she shot herself thereafter by use of the rifle, minus the silencer...

The court accepted this argument, and the case turned on whether or not the blood from the flake was exclusive to Sheila or not?

Now, I am not agreeing with the suggestion that the silencer, any silencer was used in the shootings, I am just pointing out the arguments which were relied upon during the trial to explain the presence of blood found inside the silencer, as relied upon and produced on behalf of the prosecutions case?