Telephone issue - Extravaganza...

[mike tesko]

It's unlikely that these times are both correct, as it wouldn't have taken Jeremy four minutes to catch up with the police. I think the later time is just an estimate anyway, as I don't recall that any log records the time when Jeremy arrived. Even if Jeremy arrived at 3:50, he still had just enough time to do so after calling Pc West at 3:36, even if that call lasted 6 minutes. Neither that call's duration nor JB's average speed is known accurately.

It is a fact, that Jeremy phoned the police, that he then left his cottage to go to the scene, that en route to the scene the vehicle which he was traveling in, was overtaken by the occupants of patrol car CA07, and that Jeremy arrived at the scene after CA07 did...

Jeremy was not asked about the type of weapons stored at the farm until after his arrival at the scene, and prior to when  two police officers, and himself, carried out a recce of the farmhouse...

[mike tesko]

There is - the log mentions "unit + duty PS" as being sent.

The unit which was dispatched, clearly being CA05, with inclusion of +duty PS, added later - identity of police officers who travelled to the scene in CA05, may have included a duty PS...

[mike tesko]

The open exchange line probably wouldn't have helped, as there's nothing to suggest that any comments made at the time regarding how many bodies were found in the kitchen were audible via that line.

I should think use of the open exchange line at the scene, was very useful since in order for the occupants of CA07 to be able to relay information from inside the premises to them outside, the raid team would have to relay that information upon coming across the two bodies in the region of the kitchen - these radio messages would be audible enough to be picked by the phone off the hook, since the kitchen at whf was not overly large, I should therefore think staff who were monitoring the open exchange line from the scene at the time of entry could easily hear what was being spoken about by the raid team as they stumbled upon both bodies. A dog could be heard to be barking via the exchange line, and in one of the logs it makes mention of voices being overheard when police forcefully entered the premises...

[Reader]

If, as you've suggested separately, the police had difficulty entering the kitchen and the first officer to do so found Sheila very much alive and shot her, it's quite likely that things were rather chaotic initially, with a deliberately somewhat misleading message eventually being sent back from outside the kitchen, after discussion as to what should be revealed at that stage. If the police knew the telephone line was being monitored, they might have been rather careful about what they said within range of it.

[mike tesko]

If, as you've suggested separately, the police had difficulty entering the kitchen and the first officer to do so found Sheila very much alive and shot her, it's quite likely that things were rather chaotic initially, with a deliberately somewhat misleading message eventually being sent back from outside the kitchen, after discussion as to what should be revealed at that stage. If the police knew the telephone line was being monitored, they might have been rather careful about what they said within range of it.

You are correct about that / this, the truth of what took place would be recorded on the audio tape as and when it was occurring, but the messages relayed by CA07 to the control room, from the raid team inside the kitchen, would be sent over the radio out of synchronization with what actually took place - despite this overlap, I believe the recording on the audio tape matches the detail eventually recorded in the logs...

[grahameb]

You are correct about that / this, the truth of what took place would be recorded on the audio tape as and when it was occurring, but the messages relayed by CA07 to the control room, from the raid team inside the kitchen, would be sent over the radio out of synchronization with what actually took place - despite this overlap, I believe the recording on the audio tape matches the detail eventually recorded in the logs...

Could be why the tapes have "mysteriously" disappeared. If they were ever played and they did not match up with what were later written in the logs, or that which was said in court there would be an almighty uproar and police heads would roll.

[mike tesko]

Could be why the tapes have "mysteriously" disappeared. If they were ever played and they did not match up with what were later written in the logs, or that which was said in court there would be an almighty uproar and police heads would roll.

Hi Grahame,

I think there is some truth in what you say...

The claim that the audio tapes upon which the eavesdrop via the line at the scene was obtained had been destroyed after a month, seems too far fetched, particularly when Jeremy had made a very serious complaint upon being told that all his family inside the farmhouse were dead, which caused him to say to PS Saxby, (occupant of CA07) that police must have shot and killed them all when they forced their way in...

[mike tesko]

Hi Grahame,

I think there is some truth in what you say...

The claim that the audio tapes upon which the eavesdrop via the line at the scene was obtained had been destroyed after a month, seems too far fetched, particularly when Jeremy had made a very serious complaint upon being told that all his family inside the farmhouse were dead, which caused him to say to PS Saxby, (occupant of CA07) that police must have shot and killed them all when they forced their way in...

In view of such a serious complaint being made, the audio tape recordings we are speaking about would be the obvious evidence with which to refute such an allegation, so police would hardly seek or allow these to be destroyed, unless of course, there was some truth in what Jeremy had complained about...

[Reader]

The unit which was dispatched, clearly being CA05, with inclusion of +duty PS, added later - identity of police officers who travelled to the scene in CA05, may have included a duty PS...

It's not that clear, as CA05 was sent from a considerable distance (probably Chelmsford), whereas CA07 was based at Witham, so it makes sense for Pc West's log to mention "CW informed" (i.e., Witham informed) and then on the same line state that a car has been despatched. The log doesn't say that Pc West arranged for that car to be sent. On a separate line, the log continues "CA05 to scene" (misspelt), but it doesn't clarify who sent CA05 and this line needn't be regarded as merely a continuation of the previous line. Let's consider a possible scenario...

Imagine that you are MB, working at HQIR in Chelmsford. You have received a call regarding (or possibly from) Mr Bamber at WHF, saying his daughter has gone beserk, etc. You spend several minutes dealing with this, including contacting Witham to have car CA7 sent to WHF at 3:35. A minute later, possibly whilst you're still filling in your log, Pc 1990 (i.e. Pc West) calls you to say Jeremy Bamber has just called in about his father at WHF. The logical immediate response would be to tell Pc 1990 that you've only just been in touch with Witham and a patrol car has already been sent to WHF. Because of the second call, and while Pc West is still on the line, a second car, CA05, is also sent (even though it's not near WHF and will take ages to arrive). In this way, both MB and Pc West know about both cars, allowing both MB and Pc West to log the dispatch of both cars.

[mike tesko]

In view of such a serious complaint being made, the audio tape recordings we are speaking about would be the obvious evidence with which to refute such an allegation, so police would hardly seek or allow these to be destroyed, unless of course, there was some truth in what Jeremy had complained about...

The truth which must have been recorded on the audio tape from the eavesdrop, must have got some information concerning what bodies, or body was found, when the raid team first entered the kitchen - audio evidence which supports either the account given in the police logs, or the other version produced by way of police witness statements. In those circumstances, police would not destroy the evidence on the audio tapes obtained as a result of the eavesdrop. In particular, we have that message, timed at 07:38am, passed to Inspector Norman from the occupants of CA07 at the scene, who in turn are relaying  messages passed at the scene by the raid team who have just entered the kitchen, messages which are being passed from the raid team in house, to the control room in a nearby outbuilding, which clearly refers to the discovery of one dead male, and one dead female found upon entry to the kitchen. At this stage, the raid team must have passed such a message from within the scene to the PS Adams who was located at the forward control point in a nearby outbuilding. The occupants of CA07 must have been privy to those messages, and as a result CA07 contacted the control room (Inspector Norman) to inform him that two dead bodies had been found, in particular, the body of one dead male, and one dead female. It must be clear to everyone by that stage, that there had been two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, and that several different people, some at the scene, others in the control room, and perhaps others elsewhere, that there was two bodies downstairs in the kitchen at the scene by 7.38am, at that time...

Furthermore...

Staff in the control room also had the benefit of the eavesdrop via the open telephone link through the kitchen telephone, with its handset off the hook...

It is recorded in one of the police logs, that at the time of entry into the premises, that five loud knocks could be heard, and the sound of voices. The audio recordings which existed covering this period was crucial in helping to determine (at a later stage) whether or not the account recorded in police logs regarding the discovery of two bodies in the kitchen upon entry by the raid team, or the other version of events as mentioned in the witness statements given later on by members of the raid team regarding the same entry. Added to this, is the fact that Jeremy Bamber upon being told by police at the scene that everyone inside the farmhouse was dead, accused police of shooting them all when armed officers went in...

[mike tesko]

The truth which must have been recorded on the audio tape from the eavesdrop, must have got some information concerning what bodies, or body was found, when the raid team first entered the kitchen - audio evidence which supports either the account given in the police logs, or the other version produced by way of police witness statements. In those circumstances, police would not destroy the evidence on the audio tapes obtained as a result of the eavesdrop. In particular, we have that message, timed at 07:38am, passed to Inspector Norman from the occupants of CA07 at the scene, who in turn are relaying  messages passed at the scene by the raid team who have just entered the kitchen, messages which are being passed from the raid team in house, to the control room in a nearby outbuilding, which clearly refers to the discovery of one dead male, and one dead female found upon entry to the kitchen. At this stage, the raid team must have passed such a message from within the scene to the PS Adams who was located at the forward control point in a nearby outbuilding. The occupants of CA07 must have been privy to those messages, and as a result CA07 contacted the control room (Inspector Norman) to inform him that two dead bodies had been found, in particular, the body of one dead male, and one dead female. It must be clear to everyone by that stage, that there had been two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, and that several different people, some at the scene, others in the control room, and perhaps others elsewhere, that there was two bodies downstairs in the kitchen at the scene by 7.38am, at that time...

Furthermore...

Staff in the control room also had the benefit of the eavesdrop via the open telephone link through the kitchen telephone, with its handset off the hook...

It is recorded in one of the police logs, that at the time of entry into the premises, that five loud knocks could be heard, and the sound of voices. The audio recordings which existed covering this period was crucial in helping to determine (at a later stage) whether or not the account recorded in police logs regarding the discovery of two bodies in the kitchen upon entry by the raid team, or the other version of events as mentioned in the witness statements given later on by members of the raid team regarding the same entry. Added to this, is the fact that Jeremy Bamber upon being told by police at the scene that everyone inside the farmhouse was dead, accused police of shooting them all when armed officers went in...

Clearly, the following police log message entries are inextricably linked:-

[Reader]

Jeremy says he was never asked by PC West about his fathers gun collection, and he never volunteered any such information to him during his call to police.

Pc West testified in court that he asked Jeremy whether either his sister or his father had access to any firearms. Additionally, according to the court transcript, Pc West said "I asked him did anyone have access to any firearms and he told me his father had a collection of .410 12 bore shotguns and .22 rifles." If Jeremy knew that wasn't true, why wasn't it disputed in court?

Pc West went on to say in court "I spoke to an officer on the personal radio link between ourselves and Witham Police Station relayed the message that I had received from Mr. Bamber in order that they could respond to it." This seems to clash with MB's timings. Pc West had already said in court that after listening to Jeremy (and putting him on hold), he needed to speak to HQIR first, to find out which police station covered WHF. It's unlikely that he could have done all this within one minute, yet MB logged that cars were sent at 3:35 and 3:36. MB logged car CA05 as being sent at 3:36, but CA05 almost certainly wasn't controlled from Witham. Possibly, CA05's departure time of 3:36 wasn't revealed at the trial and wasn't known by Jeremy or the defence at the time.

Pc West also testified that he had put Jeremy on hold for about 3 minutes and had then informed Jeremy (who now sounded more concerned) that a unit from Witham was attending. He went on to testify that he told Jeremy "the car from Witham won't take long." This wasn't disputed in court. As car CA05 was not from Witham, and would take a long time to arrive, Pc West must have been talking about car CA07, which had been sent at 3:35, before Jeremy called. Hence Pc West must have known about car CA07 as well as car CA05 by the time he completed his log. He presumably decided it was best not to tell Jeremy that the situation at WHF was already being dealt with before Jeremy had called. Even if Jeremy's dad never called and Pc West logged 3:36 incorrectly, it's still clear that Pc West knew about both cars before completing his log, because he wrote CA05 in his log, but testified that he told Jeremy that a car from Witham "won't take long", which must have been a reference to car CA07.

That's why I find that it's both plausible and likely that Pc West's log refers to both car CA07 and car CA05.

[mike tesko]

Pc West testified in court that he asked Jeremy whether either his sister or his father had access to any firearms. Additionally, according to the court transcript, Pc West said "I asked him did anyone have access to any firearms and he told me his father had a collection of .410 12 bore shotguns and .22 rifles." If Jeremy knew that wasn't true, why wasn't it disputed in court?

It is truly amazing that PC West did not record any of this in his phone log (3.36am):-

[mike tesko]

Yet...

It gets mentioned in Malcolm Bonnets log (3:26am):-

[mike tesko]

Where is it recorded, or when was PC West supposed to have relayed to MB the fact that Jeremy had spoken to PC West about his fathers collection of 12 bores and .410's?