Author Topic: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...  (Read 25568 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2013, 12:18:PM »
I have noted, also, that in neither phone log (3:26 or 3:36am) is there any record of an internal call between PC 1990 and Malcolm Bonnet, having been made, only reference to information being received via the exchange line in one (3:26am), and the exchange line and radio, in the other (3:36am)...
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2013, 12:21:PM »
I have noted, also, that in neither phone log (3:26 or 3:36am) is there any record of an internal call between PC 1990 and Malcolm Bonnet, having been made, only reference to information being received via the exchange line in one (3:26am), and the exchange line and radio, in the other (3:36am)...

This strongly suggests that one log is not some sort of a duplication of the other, or vice versa, as a result of information passed onto one to another, involving a clock at police head quarters being 10 minutes fast, or slow, but that each of these logs refers to separate calls made and received via the exchange lines from the scene (3;26am), and Jeremy's cottage (3:36am)...
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2013, 12:48:PM »
Pamela Boutflour witness statement:- (2 pages, undated)...
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Offline Reader

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2013, 04:05:PM »
The problem . . .  engaged tone each time Jeremy tried . . . part of the same 'force release' period?

If not, then the handset of the telephone at the scene must have either been replaced upon its cradle, or someone must have depressed the cradle whilst the handset was still off the hook . . .

The telephone call to police from the scene, timed at 3:26am, fits the criteria pefectly...
A "force-release" might have occurred, but only if Jeremy's description of what he did was inaccurate. He said he tried to dial back after the line went dead, without mentioning delaying for a minute or two. Without that delay, no "force-release" occurred, as Jeremy must have obtained a dial tone in order to dial out and get an engaged tone.

That leaves three possibilities: (1) The call to JB was cut off accidentally, (2) it was cut off deliberately (possibly to allow another call), (3) it was cut off deliberately, but by someone else (such as Sheila) in the same room.

The telephone call to police from the scene, timed at 3:26am, fits the criteria pefectly...
It fits, but doesn't explain why it took 9 minutes to send out a car. That's quite a long time, considering the urgent nature of the call.

. . . in Jeremy's call to police (see log 3:36am), he never makes any mention of his fathers gun collection of shotguns and .410's...
Pc West may not have recorded it, but that doesn't prove Jeremy didn't give him the information, perhaps later on in his call. It would be logical for Pc West to ask JB about this, as a gun had already been mentioned. Did you specifically ask Jeremy (during your discussions with him in prison, or subsequently) whether he told Pc West what weapons were at WHF? If you did, and JB said he couldn't remember doing so, did you then ask him whether he was certain that he hadn't done so?

The timing of both individual calls, fit perfectly into the grand scheme of things, . . .
Not quite. The 3:26 call was logged as coming from "CD (1990)" (Pc West) via exchange line, but Pc West gave JB no indication that he (Pc West) had already received a call about the same matter just 10 minutes earlier. Also, nothing in Pc West's log suggests he had already received a related call, or that MB had told him about a related call (which might reasonably be expected if the 3:26 call went direct to MB, rather than via Pc West, even though MB's log stated it came via Pc West). The 3:36 log mentions two cars (one as a "unit", the other as CA5), but their departure times are given only in MB's log. Even if MB's log is ignored, and JB's dad had called MB direct, one would expect that MB would mention this to Pc West when Pc West spoke to him, so Pc West would still have known about the previous call whilst on the line to JB.

Under these circumstances, the fact that the occupants of CA07 overtook Jeremy in his car en route to the scene, had less of a significance in trying to portray him in a poor light...
Why? There's no obvious connection between the exact departure time of CA07 and whether JB was shown in a poor light. Wasn't it only the suggestion that JB was driving rather slowly that could be taken as portraying him in a poor light?

There is, however, some evidence that upon arrival of CA07 (3:48am) and Jeremy (3:52am) at the scene, . . .
It's unlikely that these times are both correct, as it wouldn't have taken Jeremy four minutes to catch up with the police. I think the later time is just an estimate anyway, as I don't recall that any log records the time when Jeremy arrived. Even if Jeremy arrived at 3:50, he still had just enough time to do so after calling Pc West at 3:36, even if that call lasted 6 minutes. Neither that call's duration nor JB's average speed is known accurately.

Or it could simply be that fathers and brothers aren't that hot on remembering birthdays and ages of family members. I know my husband always asks me how old our children are.
You're right, it's the kind of mistake a 'family member' might make.
I disagree. If JB thought Sheila was 26, that would mean he thought Sheila was only 1 1/2 years older than him. I think it's much more likely that JB simply made a mistake. If JB hasn't yet been asked about this specific point, it's high time he was. Whatever the reason for the error, the different logged ages suggest that two calls to the police occurred.

Why isn't there any mention of the deployment of occupants CA07 in Jeremy's 3:36am phone log, . . .
There is - the log mentions "unit + duty PS" as being sent.

. . .  the control room had the benefit of the open exchange line from the kitchen phone at the scene, to confirm that two bodies had been found . . .
The open exchange line probably wouldn't have helped, as there's nothing to suggest that any comments made at the time regarding how many bodies were found in the kitchen were audible via that line.

Offline maggie

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2013, 04:18:PM »
I agree Reader, I didn't mean JB  believed Sbeila was younger than she actually was just that he maxe a mistake. Sheila was only just 27 and it was the middle of the night, so understandable mistake to make.imo

Offline Reader

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2013, 04:28:PM »
There was a quite lengthy thread about Sheila's birth year - didn't it eventually conclude that Sheila was born in 1957, making both of the above ages incorrect?

Offline maggie

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2013, 04:39:PM »
There was a quite lengthy thread about Sheila's birth year - didn't it eventually conclude that Sheila was born in 1957, making both of the above ages incorrect?
According to her pm Sheila was born in 1958 Reader . That would make her 27 on 18th july 1985.

Offline grahameb

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2013, 04:50:PM »
Hi Grahame,

There is, however, some evidence that upon arrival of CA07 (3:48am) and Jeremy (3:52am) at the scene, there was some exchange of information regarding Mr Bambers (senior) gun collection of shotguns, and .410's, when PS Bews and PC Myall asked Jeremy who his sister was more likely to be upset at seeing, and to shoot at? This was mentioned to Jeremy by police before Bews / Myall and Jeremy set off to have a look around the perimeter of the farmhouse...

This took place at around 4am...

So, it should be obvious to most that there was a delay of about 24 minutes, before Jeremy made any mention of his fathers gun collection to the occupants of CA07, and that this did not get mentioned by Jeremy until police raised the question at the scene, long after Jeremy himself had made his 3:36am call to police, as per the contents of log 3:36am...
Yes but the time on the second so called copy was still 3.36 wasn't it? Not 4am.

Offline Reader

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2013, 05:01:PM »
I gather that 1958 was recorded, maggie, but in the thread I mentioned, the discussion was based on dates recorded at around the time of her birth and adoption.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2013, 05:39:PM »
There was a quite lengthy thread about Sheila's birth year - didn't it eventually conclude that Sheila was born in 1957, making both of the above ages incorrect?

Death Certificate provides that Sheila's date of birth was 18th July 1958, making her 27 years of age at the time of her death, on 7th August 1985...
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 05:40:PM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2013, 05:46:PM »
A "force-release" might have occurred, but only if Jeremy's description of what he did was inaccurate. He said he tried to dial back after the line went dead, without mentioning delaying for a minute or two. Without that delay, no "force-release" occurred, as Jeremy must have obtained a dial tone in order to dial out and get an engaged tone.

That leaves three possibilities: (1) The call to JB was cut off accidentally, (2) it was cut off deliberately (possibly to allow another call), (3) it was cut off deliberately, but by someone else (such as Sheila) in the same room.


I believe that the phone connection from the scene to Jeremy at his cottage was, (2) it was cut off deliberately (possibly to allow another call), and that the reason why Jeremy's attempt to re-establish contact with his father at the scene, was met with an engaged tone, is because Ralph was speaking to police in accordance with the contents of phone log, 3 ;26am, at that time, or on those occasions...
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 05:48:PM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2013, 05:51:PM »

It fits, but doesn't explain why it took 9 minutes to send out a car. That's quite a long time, considering the urgent nature of the call.


If one of the clocks was about 10 minutes faster, or slower than the other, at police headquarters, the delay of 9 minutes we are talking about might be put down to error...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2013, 05:57:PM »

Pc West may not have recorded it, but that doesn't prove Jeremy didn't give him the information, perhaps later on in his call. It would be logical for Pc West to ask JB about this, as a gun had already been mentioned. Did you specifically ask Jeremy (during your discussions with him in prison, or subsequently) whether he told Pc West what weapons were at WHF? If you did, and JB said he couldn't remember doing so, did you then ask him whether he was certain that he hadn't done so?


Jeremy says he was never asked by PC West about his fathers gun collection, and he never volunteered any such information to him during his call to police. He was first asked about which type of weapons were present inside the farmhouse by the police he met upon arrival at the scene, and did not provide a comprehensive list of the shotguns, .410's and .22 rifles, until after the arrival of the first group of firearms officers to the scene, until after 5am...
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 05:58:PM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2013, 06:01:PM »

Not quite. The 3:26 call was logged as coming from "CD (1990)" (Pc West) via exchange line, but Pc West gave JB no indication that he (Pc West) had already received a call about the same matter just 10 minutes earlier. Also, nothing in Pc West's log suggests he had already received a related call, or that MB had told him about a related call (which might reasonably be expected if the 3:26 call went direct to MB, rather than via Pc West, even though MB's log stated it came via Pc West). The 3:36 log mentions two cars (one as a "unit", the other as CA5), but their departure times are given only in MB's log. Even if MB's log is ignored, and JB's dad had called MB direct, one would expect that MB would mention this to Pc West when Pc West spoke to him, so Pc West would still have known about the previous call whilst on the line to JB.


A call between PC West and MB would have taken place via an 'internal line' connection, not by way of an 'exchange line' ...
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 06:16:PM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2013, 06:15:PM »

Why? There's no obvious connection between the exact departure time of CA07 and whether JB was shown in a poor light. Wasn't it only the suggestion that JB was driving rather slowly that could be taken as portraying him in a poor light?


It was suggested during the trial, that the act of overtaking Jeremy by the occupants of CA07 en route to the scene, may be significant in that it showed Jeremy to have been deliberately slow timing with a view to trying to make sure that police arrived at the scene before he did, he knowing that police had already been dispatched to the scene, because he had been told as much by the person who had instructed him to go to the scene, but not to approach the premises until police arrived there. If the contents of both phone logs had been made available to the defense during the trial, otherwise they would have been able to shed some doubt upon whether or not the occupants of CA07 who overtook Jeremy en route to the scene, had been dispatched there as a result of Jeremy's call to police, or as a result of police being made aware of the unfolding drama at the scene from another source. At best, it could only be argued that the occupants of CA05 had been dispatched to the incident as a result of Jeremy's call, and those police officers did not arrive at the scene until 4;23am, or some 35 minutes after Jeremy himself had arrived there (3:48am)...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...