The bedroom phone, phone calls & Neville.

[susan]

Morning Droosie

Julie has stated she knew for about one year prior to the murders that Jeremy intended to carry out this horrendous crime why did she not try and stop it.  Julie was not afraid of Jeremy are you forgetting she tried to smoother him with a pillow and threw soap at his head in the supermarket not the actions of a woman afraid I would say.  What was Jeremy's motive for slaying his family I would ask you.  He was provided with a house, car shares in the caravan park due to inherit from Grannie Speakman think he had enough to be going on with don't you?  Don't forget all his expenses were paid by his Dad and he had a good salary and a very good lifestyle.

[Adam]

Thank you for clarifying that Adam, this thread is an interesting read. Lots of opinions and ideas.

I still lean to "guilty as charged" simply because Jeremy had the motive, the means and the opportunity. Plus a lot of what he said after just does not add up for me.

I don't want an innocent man behind bars but equally I don't want a man capable and willing of shooting two six year old children in the head walking free. I still tend towards guilt in Jeremy's case.

Granted the original police investigation was botched because...well they dealt with things differently then AND they thought they were dealing with murders/suicide.

Dunno WHAT to think about Julie Mugford....she and I are about the same age....I thik back to those times and wonder if I could have acted as she did...knowing that two children had been murdered. No I could not have done...I would have gone straight to the police if I thought my boyfriend had been guilty of such a heinous crime.
Then again she says he told her that a hit man did the killing......personally if I had been in her position I wold have been very very afraid.

Do not foget about the mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence.

[susan]

Morning Adam

please elaborate on this MOUNTAIN of forensic evidence.  Also this point is for Droosie Julie gave her sleeping tablets to Jeremy research this and see what he was going to do with them.

[Adam]

1: Uncontaminated hands and nightdress completely free of any gunfire residue or gun oil. In fact no contaminants of any sort indicated that Sheila never handled the rifle let alone fired it 25 times in quick succession and reloaded its magazine at least twice.

2. Uncontaminated feet. Sheila's feet were completely clean and free of blood or any other contaminants evidencing the fact that she had been in bed when the attack took place and thereafter only walked on carpet. She could never have been downstairs in the kitchen that morning.

3. Uncut feet. Nevill Bamber was brutally attacked in the kitchen after having been shot several times in the upstairs bedroom. During the assault in the kitchen a glass lampshade was smashed leaving glass fragments all over the floor. Had Sheila taken part in that attack the soles of her feet or the soles of her slippers would have been pock marked with glass fragments. Sheila's feet were unmarked as were the soles of her slippers.

4. Only one fingerprint on the rifle evidencing the fact that Sheila did not wield it or fire it. Had she shot herself twice as alleged by some her thumbprint would have been on the trigger since she would have to had pushed it. It wasn't.

5. It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator. Group 'A' human blood matching Sheila was recovered from the sound moderator in 1985. Later, advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen. Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.

6. Sheila was in good spirits, looking forward to the future as a family again. Her doctor and her ex husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children.

7. Two gunshots to her neck. Hardly indicative of a suicide especially when the first one would have incapacitated her. It is also noticeable that the gun and magazine were empty when found. Was that another coincidence that Sheila just happened to use the last bullet and had no others on her person?

8. No marks or injuries following a fight. Sheila was tiny compared to the 6' 2" Nevill. She could not have fought with him without sustaining some sort of injury or damage to her clothing.

9. Sheila had traces of cannabis in her system rendering her calm and docile, not violent or murderous.

10. Sheila had run out of her procyclidine which counteracts the effects of her medication haloperidol. Without this she would have been very shaky and uncoordinated (as described by various witnesses) and would not have had the control needed to get off 25 shots without missing one never mind trying to reload an awkward magazine in between time.

11. Sheila was unfamiliar with the rifle or any firearm for that matter and would have been unable to make 25 target shots.

12. If Sheila had shot herself in the throat and had remained conscious, there would have been blood in her mouth and throat with resultant blood spatter everywhere as she struggled to breathe. Her fingers would have touched the burning wound and ended up covered in blood as would have her face and neck. The blood trails running from this wound would have been smudged yet it was not. There was no secondary blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her. The inside of her hands and her finger tips did not have any blood staining. Sheila therefore was not conscious after the first shot and most certainly did not fire the second one.

13. Sheila's body was found on the far side of the master bedroom away from everyone. Had she committed suicide as some allege it is more than likely that she would have done so beside her children and not remote from them.

14. Perfectly manicured nails and all intact and unbroken. If Sheila had used the rifle and loaded it at least once she would have ended up with some nail damage. There was none.

[Jane]

Thank you for clarifying that Adam, this thread is an interesting read. Lots of opinions and ideas.

I still lean to "guilty as charged" simply because Jeremy had the motive, the means and the opportunity. Plus a lot of what he said after just does not add up for me.

I don't want an innocent man behind bars but equally I don't want a man capable and willing of shooting two six year old children in the head walking free. I still tend towards guilt in Jeremy's case.

Granted the original police investigation was botched because...well they dealt with things differently then AND they thought they were dealing with murders/suicide.

Dunno WHAT to think about Julie Mugford....she and I are about the same age....I thik back to those times and wonder if I could have acted as she did...knowing that two children had been murdered. No I could not have done...I would have gone straight to the police if I thought my boyfriend had been guilty of such a heinous crime.
Then again she says he told her that a hit man did the killing......personally if I had been in her position I wold have been very very afraid.

Droosie hello. I think, whatever our stance we can agree that Julie was a girl who thought with her head rather than her heart. I imagine her agenda, despite perhaps being emotionally drawn towards teaching, was to become the wife of a wealthy man and I suspect that it was with this goal in mind she was prepared to put all other considerations aside. I think we must admire her for being one very cool cookie. Not only did she go to identify the bodies, explaining that she wanted to "talk" to Sheila to ask her what had happened!!! but having performed the task, after smoking a cigarette, she requested a second viewing!!!

Like you, I'd have run a mile from any man who as much as hinted a violence. I can only imagine that this cool headed woman could envisage a carrot so large and juicy that it kept her not only at his side, but in his bed. I've said MANY times previously that had Jeremy not dumped her -the seriousness of their relationship possibly being only in HER head- he would probably STILL be a free man. I think she made good her statement that if she couldn't have him, no one else would.

[Adam]

Please see page 1 of  the 'Judges curious coincidences' thread for circimstantial evidence.

[susan]

Adam I am awaiting to hear about this MOUNTAIN of forensic evidence it is only fair to a new member like Droosie you back your statements up with some facts she is going to get the wrong impression about the case.

[Adam]

People speak as if Julie was with Jeremy for two years after the murder.

She was with him for one month. She was caught in the eye of hurricane. Press all over WHF, police & relatives around. Funerals to atend. She said she loved Jeremy & was under his spell. She probably did not want to believe he had paid Matthew Mcdonald.

Jeremy said in his interview transcripts that his relationship with Julie had been in decline for around six months before the murders.

Jilted love ? Julie would have been pleased to escape after being in turmoil after the massacre.

[Adam]

Adam I am awaiting to hear about this MOUNTAIN of forensic evidence it is only fair to a new member like Droosie you back your statements up with some facts she is going to get the wrong impression about the case.

Derrr. I have just posted 14 points.

[susan]

Adam pity she did not escape earlier and report Jeremy's intended plans to the police or even Ralph Bamber strange how she waited till after he dumped her for another a woman scorned Adam dangerous enemy to have and Jeremy Bamber may have been many things but not stupid.

[Jan]

People speak as if Julie was with Jeremy for two years after the murder.

She was with him for one month. She was caught in the eye of hurricane. Press all over WHF, police & relatives around. Funerals to atend. She said she loved Jeremy & was under his spell. She probably did not want to believe he had paid Matthew Mcdonald.

Jeremy said in his interview transcripts that his relationship with Julie had been in decline for around six months before the murders.

Jilted love ? Julie would have been pleased to escape after being in turmoil after the massacre.

So if as you say the relationship had been in decline even MORE reason why JB would not tell Julie that he was involved in the murders?!

Why would he make that monumental mistake when in your world he had been planning all this for months?

[susan]

Derr Adam the points you copied elsewhere are not related to forensic evidence just indulge me and name just 5 of them other than the dodgy silencer and are you forgetting what happened to the forensic evidence it was all BURNT against the Courts instructions why would this be Adam.  Now I am awaiting just 5 of your points relating to forensic evidence.  I am a very patient lady.

[Jan]

Derrr. I have just posted 14 points.

Derrr - we have been through all those before - and a lot of them actually are contradictory to the experts in the case - and they can not all be telling lies can they?

[Roch]

1: Uncontaminated hands and nightdress completely free of any gunfire residue or gun oil. In fact no contaminants of any sort indicated that Sheila never handled the rifle let alone fired it 25 times in quick succession and reloaded its magazine at least twice.

2. Uncontaminated feet. Sheila's feet were completely clean and free of blood or any other contaminants evidencing the fact that she had been in bed when the attack took place and thereafter only walked on carpet. She could never have been downstairs in the kitchen that morning.

3. Uncut feet. Nevill Bamber was brutally attacked in the kitchen after having been shot several times in the upstairs bedroom. During the assault in the kitchen a glass lampshade was smashed leaving glass fragments all over the floor. Had Sheila taken part in that attack the soles of her feet or the soles of her slippers would have been pock marked with glass fragments. Sheila's feet were unmarked as were the soles of her slippers.

4. Only one fingerprint on the rifle evidencing the fact that Sheila did not wield it or fire it. Had she shot herself twice as alleged by some her thumbprint would have been on the trigger since she would have to had pushed it. It wasn't.

5. It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator. Group 'A' human blood matching Sheila was recovered from the sound moderator in 1985. Later, advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen. Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.

6. Sheila was in good spirits, looking forward to the future as a family again. Her doctor and her ex husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children.

7. Two gunshots to her neck. Hardly indicative of a suicide especially when the first one would have incapacitated her. It is also noticeable that the gun and magazine were empty when found. Was that another coincidence that Sheila just happened to use the last bullet and had no others on her person?

8. No marks or injuries following a fight. Sheila was tiny compared to the 6' 2" Nevill. She could not have fought with him without sustaining some sort of injury or damage to her clothing.

9. Sheila had traces of cannabis in her system rendering her calm and docile, not violent or murderous.

10. Sheila had run out of her procyclidine which counteracts the effects of her medication haloperidol. Without this she would have been very shaky and uncoordinated (as described by various witnesses) and would not have had the control needed to get off 25 shots without missing one never mind trying to reload an awkward magazine in between time.

11. Sheila was unfamiliar with the rifle or any firearm for that matter and would have been unable to make 25 target shots.

12. If Sheila had shot herself in the throat and had remained conscious, there would have been blood in her mouth and throat with resultant blood spatter everywhere as she struggled to breathe. Her fingers would have touched the burning wound and ended up covered in blood as would have her face and neck. The blood trails running from this wound would have been smudged yet it was not. There was no secondary blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her. The inside of her hands and her finger tips did not have any blood staining. Sheila therefore was not conscious after the first shot and most certainly did not fire the second one.

13. Sheila's body was found on the far side of the master bedroom away from everyone. Had she committed suicide as some allege it is more than likely that she would have done so beside her children and not remote from them.

14. Perfectly manicured nails and all intact and unbroken. If Sheila had used the rifle and loaded it at least once she would have ended up with some nail damage. There was none.

Hey Adam, I'll give you your due.  When it comes to saturated regurgitating of tired, prosecution cliches... you da man. 

[susan]

Hi Roch  you are forgetting Adam is a programmed parrot