Author Topic: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'  (Read 54541 times)

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Offline maggie

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #300 on: July 17, 2013, 06:41:PM »

As long as they get their man, eh lookout? Well, in this case A man.
I agree with all of you but it's just been so incredibly hot here today that I have no strength to write a post. ...... cooler tomorrow only 30 degrees  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Caroline R

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #301 on: July 17, 2013, 06:52:PM »
Hi Caroline,

I used to think JB may not be guilty (following the Sutherst photo report highlighted in the Sunday Times back in 2010), but the more I read, and thought about certain aspects of the case, the more I came to believe JB did do it (or certainly had a significant hand in it).

Or thinking the other way - SC may have done it, but after some thought and consideration this look’s more unlikely. If you take this stance (which I believe most of the Jurors may have) the only suspect left is JB.


Trial by elimination.

I agree the silencer evidence is suspect (and always have) as it was handled by the relatives, and as for Mugford!! (this bit smacks to me of the Nat Fraser case – which as I believe you know is all circumstantial).

Originally Hector Dick was in the doc next to Fraser. The next thing Dick is giving damning evidence against Fraser – Dick is free (pardon the expression) and Fraser in jail (Mugford is free and JB in jail). Mugford could have sat in the doc next to JB if she knew so much about the murders. Rivlin imo did a poor job on Mugford – and the rest is history!!

Even the defence in the Fraser case actually accused Dick (a witness) in court of being the murderer. Rivlin wasn’t direct enough with Mugford, and even helped a prosecution witness with the use of a certain “trick of the light” expression imo.

There was an expression used by the prosecution in the Nat Fraser trial – it’s like taking individual strands, which on their own are weak, but when combined make it a strong.

In this recent circumstantial evidence case (not even a body or murder weapon) a jury still found Fraser guilty for a second time – even though Fraser continues to protest his innocence.

JB has had multiple appeals, a COLP enquiry, a Judicial review,  etc. – JB has had his case reviewed over years and to be frank nothing has changed.

Hi Nickos,

I agree with much of what you say and having watched The Trial the other night, I personally believe that Fraser was/is guilty but that Dick certainly isn't innocent.

I don't however agree with you on the Jeremy Bamber case - The judge gave a final biased closing speech and in directing the jury on the blood evidence, he misquoted Hayward!!

I think Mugford found herself in a precarious position and was perhaps told that if she didn't 'cooperate' she would find herself facing an accessory charge. Having been convinced of JB's involvement (by certain ambitious officers), the 'story' of JB's year long confession to her  finally emerged!!

I don't believe the whole moderator scenario -  I have my own ideas about that!!

Having already been heavily criticised for the bungling of the initial investigation, there is no way EP would cough to another mistake!!

As for the CCRC, I'm sure they do their best but they have certain criteria to abide by. One of which is assessing IF the new evidence presented is 'likely' to lead to a different verdict. I would love to know who made that particular gem a criteria because this on it's own is stacked against any miscarriage of Justice case.

Offline Jane

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #302 on: July 17, 2013, 07:07:PM »
Hi Nickos,

I agree with much of what you say and having watched The Trial the other night, I personally believe that Fraser was/is guilty but that Dick certainly isn't innocent.

I don't however agree with you on the Jeremy Bamber case - The judge gave a final biased closing speech and in directing the jury on the blood evidence, he misquoted Hayward!!

I think Mugford found herself in a precarious position and was perhaps told that if she didn't 'cooperate' she would find herself facing an accessory charge. Having been convinced of JB's involvement (by certain ambitious officers), the 'story' of JB's year long confession to her  finally emerged!!

I don't believe the whole moderator scenario -  I have my own ideas about that!!

Having already been heavily criticised for the bungling of the initial investigation, there is no way EP would cough to another mistake!!

As for the CCRC, I'm sure they do their best but they have certain criteria to abide by. One of which is assessing IF the new evidence presented is 'likely' to lead to a different verdict. I would love to know who made that particular gem a criteria because this on it's own is stacked against any miscarriage of Justice case.


Oooooorrr, a way of ensuring that fewer cases of MOJs come to light? Cynical? MOI!!!!!

Caroline R

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #303 on: July 17, 2013, 07:13:PM »

Oooooorrr, a way of ensuring that fewer cases of MOJs come to light? Cynical? MOI!!!!!

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt April - given how and why they were first formed. :)

Offline Jane

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #304 on: July 17, 2013, 07:27:PM »
I was giving them the benefit of the doubt April - given how and why they were first formed. :)




Humble apologies for failing to do the same, Caroline :)

Caroline R

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #305 on: July 17, 2013, 07:37:PM »



Humble apologies for failing to do the same, Caroline :)

(and also didn't want to get shouted at by anyone who doesn't like to see them criticised  ;D ;D ;D ;D)

Offline killingeve

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #306 on: July 18, 2013, 06:15:PM »
Just listened to DB re the above and thought he looked/sounded so different from a previous video clip? 

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23247525
 
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-17855823

Hello NN

How are you? 

I hope you're not being a 'Naughty Nun' and upsetting the mods?  ::) ::) ::)

Anyway re the above I note that DB makes ref to 'evil' and June's note in her bible.  What is it with this family and evil, devil, religion etc?  RB makes ref to JB selling his soul to the Devil (diary entry), June referring to SC as the Devil's child? (well documented) and now DB and evil/ref to bible (above vid clip)?   :-\ :-\ :-\  Is this 'normal' or indicative of something else at work... :-\ :-\ :-\

Devil, evil, bible... :-\ :-\ :-\


Offline susan

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #307 on: July 18, 2013, 06:24:PM »
Hello N/N  how ya doing.  Very good points you have just made about evil Devil bible I don't think these remarks are normal at all and the people making them must be quite disturbed IMO.  Think June was a religious fanantic and I believe in her own way drew comfort from her religion although misguided at times. But not sure about DB maybe he said those things just for effect.

Offline killingeve

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #308 on: July 18, 2013, 06:33:PM »
Hello N/N  how ya doing.  Very good points you have just made about evil Devil bible I don't think these remarks are normal at all and the people making them must be quite disturbed IMO.  Think June was a religious fanantic and I believe in her own way drew comfort from her religion although misguided at times. But not sure about DB maybe he said those things just for effect.

Hi Susan

I think I have been quite restrained in my posts re the 'relatives'.  However the above strikes me as somewhat odd.  The language kind of reminds me of the right wing, bible bashing, hilly billy set from the US  :-\ :-\ :-\

Offline susan

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #309 on: July 18, 2013, 06:47:PM »
Hello N/N  I am always careful when talking about religion as I would not wish to offend.  Many people have very narrow minded views with regard to religion and use words like the Devil and evil to me that is not being a Christian.  A true Christian tries to see good in people not evil and would never use expressions like selling your soul to the Devil and the Devil's child that kind of religion is unfortunately not genuine but very misguided through an illness or a person who is a bigot and I have never seen June as a bigot but a nice lady who maybe lost her way and became confused in her thinking :(

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #310 on: July 18, 2013, 10:18:PM »
There were five victims who had human rights;the relatives whom you so easily disparage have human rights too. Every crime has a victim,and maybe watching the above clip will reinforce this idea when one considers what to do with life prisoners such as Jeremy.

Offline nugnug

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #311 on: July 18, 2013, 10:35:PM »
how are they victims how does being distantly related to someone who was murdered make you victim of anything.

i mean even if you clase them as vicems its not as if they havent been fairly compensated.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 10:44:PM by nugnug »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #312 on: July 18, 2013, 10:59:PM »
how are they victims how does being distantly related to someone who was murdered make you victim of anything.

i mean even if you clase them as vicems its not as if they havent been fairly compensated.
Let's discuss human rights in the round,not just one side. Pamela lost a sister,David and Ann lost an aunt,Mabel Speakman lost a daughter and grandchildren..shock can kill old people..

Lugg

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #313 on: July 18, 2013, 11:07:PM »
Let's discuss human rights in the round,not just one side. Pamela lost a sister,David and Ann lost an aunt,Mabel Speakman lost a daughter and grandchildren..shock can kill old people..
I agree with you on this. But what would be your thoughts on the matter if it were proved that Sheila did it and not Jeremy?

Offline maggie

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Re: ECHR ..... now - Killers' life terms 'breached their human rights'
« Reply #314 on: July 18, 2013, 11:17:PM »
I agree with you on this. But what would be your thoughts on the matter if it were proved that Sheila did it and not Jeremy?
Good question Lugg  ;D