Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[Steve_uk]

Did anyone notice the build of Jeremy in 1985/6.? Not exactly a Mr Universe against his father. Sheila had more strength in her little finger during one of her " bouts ",than Jeremy had in the whole of his body. One backhander from his father would have sent Jeremy to the floor,,the size and strength of Nevilles' hands.

Yes lookout but then the tables were turned with Nevill's illness and the head of the household was no more. Jeremy realized there was a vacancy and grasped his window of opportunity. Sheila wasn't violent against others during her bouts as you call them;like the typical schizophrenic she was far more a danger to herself.

[Jane]

She already has faced her demons with nightmares..(where's that thread about Julie putting up those plywood chairs after the school bell has rung?). As for Jeremy he needed a woman at Bourtree Cottage to justify the presence of the ladies' bicycle there,and you're right Julie put two and two together post-murders.

Without actually having been in bed with her that can't be proved. As for the bike, I believe it's been said that Julie had a holiday job at a neighbouring smallhold and needed it for transport.

[Steve_uk]

Without actually having been in bed with her that can't be proved. As for the bike, I believe it's been said that Julie had a holiday job at a neighbouring smallhold and needed it for transport.

Why would she say it making it a sign of weakness? Julie had a job in London on the Tuesday of the evening of the first telephone call from Jeremy and not Maldon Growers as I believe you're alluding to. The first time Julie saw that bicycle was on Saturday 3rd August 1985 but by the Sunday evening she was back at the Lewisham flat.

[lookout]

Yes lookout but then the tables were turned with Nevill's illness and the head of the household was no more. Jeremy realized there was a vacancy and grasped his window of opportunity. Sheila wasn't violent against others during her bouts as you call them;like the typical schizophrenic she was far more a danger to herself.

Neville wasn't ill,Steve,,he was a worried man,,for reasons which we'll never find out now,,but whatever was bothering him,had been ongoing since he was threatened by that Bell who said he'd " use real bullets next time ".
Neville had already mentioned his concerns to Barbara Wilson,,and also Pamela,Junes' siste,r knew about whatever Neville was worrying about. It didn't concern Jeremy in any way.

[Steve_uk]

Neville wasn't ill,Steve,,he was a worried man,,for reasons which we'll never find out now,,but whatever was bothering him,had been ongoing since he was threatened by that Bell who said he'd " use real bullets next time ".
Neville had already mentioned his concerns to Barbara Wilson,,and also Pamela,Junes' siste,r knew about whatever Neville was worrying about. It didn't concern Jeremy in any way.

He was off sick from his magistrate's job. Jeremy looked round at them:his mentally ill sister,a dejected June moping around going through the motions of existence, and then the twins,full of life..how could he possibly justify doing away with them? Well under their mother's influence they would grow up damaged,and it would give Colin a clean start,not to mention bequeath Jeremy the smart London flat he so prized.

[Jane]

Why would she say it making it a sign of weakness? Julie had a job in London on the Tuesday of the evening of the first telephone call from Jeremy and not Maldon Growers as I believe you're alluding to. The first time Julie saw that bicycle was on Saturday 3rd August 1985 but by the Sunday evening she was back at the Lewisham flat.

I wonder why you'd think she sees having nightmares as being a sign of weakness. As for her not being there to use the bike, Jeremy wouldn't be the first male to get it wrong regarding a woman's plans.

[susan]

steve please tell me what plywood chairs and a ladies biycle have to do with my post.  How do I know she had nightmares just hearsay.  She put two and two together because of a ladies bike I thought Jeremy had discussed it with her and said tonights the night.  steve jealousy is a powerful emotion almost like an illness and that is what Julie was suffering from.

[maggie]

No Caroline because if Sheila just happened to kill four members of her family and Jeremy had had no plans to kill them then everything Julie reported about Jeremy's intentions are lies and she cannot be blamed for their deaths. Additionally of course continuing the innocent Jeremy scenario the relatives must have dripped some of Sheila's blood from the knicker bucket into a silencer then scratched the mantlepiece with it.

Hi Steve this is an interesting article about psychosis and how it can affect someone and drive them to acts of violence and suicide

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/jun/16/malcolm-brabant-broadcaster-immunisation

[Steve_uk]

steve please tell me what plywood chairs and a ladies biycle have to do with my post.  How do I know she had nightmares just hearsay.  She put two and two together because of a ladies bike I thought Jeremy had discussed it with her and said tonights the night.  steve jealousy is a powerful emotion almost like an illness and that is what Julie was suffering from.

It's a reminder of what Julie faced on a daily basis as she worked her way up the career ladder. It's Jeremy who will have to face his demons when the time comes,the only quibble I have with the life tariff is there's no incentive for him to confess,neither will he probably turn to religion after witnessing its effects first hand on mother and sibling.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve this is an interesting article about psychosis and how it can affect someone and drive them to acts of violence and suicide

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/jun/16/malcolm-brabant-broadcaster-immunisation

Maggie the article is upsetting and nobody is saying Sheila wasn't ill. Surprisingly he was given ECT which might be an eye-opener for some on this forum. Sheila had never harmed her children in the past and as I say when someone acts one way in life and is reported to have acted differently after death I'm afraid alarm bells start to ring.

[susan]

steve I can fully understand Jeremy not confessing to crimes he most certainly did not commit.  Whether he finds comfort in God that is for him to decide not us.  The hardest part for Jeremy to live with in this situation is how a woman who was suppose to have loved him and had done for two years could do that to him most human beings could not do that to somebody they disliked intensely surely steve £25.000 was not so important to her.  I have a feeling within one day Julie is going to have to come face to face with Jeremy and I wonder how that will affect her.

[Caroline R]

Maggie the article is upsetting and nobody is saying Sheila wasn't ill. Surprisingly he was given ECT which might be an eye-opener for some on this forum. Sheila had never harmed her children in the past and as I say when someone acts one way in life and is reported to have acted differently after death I'm afraid alarm bells start to ring.

Not if they have paranoid schizophrenia! 

[lookout]

He was off sick from his magistrate's job. Jeremy looked round at them:his mentally ill sister,a dejected June moping around going through the motions of existence, and then the twins,full of life..how could he possibly justify doing away with them? Well under their mother's influence they would grow up damaged,and it would give Colin a clean start,not to mention bequeath Jeremy the smart London flat he so prized.

Steve,,Neville was advised to steer clear of his magistrates position for the time being because of the hastle he was getting from a previous case. I doubt if he'd have told June of his fears,as he kept pretty well everything to himself.
I would have imagined that if Jeremy had looked around at each member of his family,,that he may have gathered that there was something in the wind,,but you didn't ask questions like that in the household. He wasn't weighing things up in a sinister way at all,,and must have thought it was something to do with Sheila,,,as usual.

[maggie]

Maggie the article is upsetting and nobody is saying Sheila wasn't ill. Surprisingly he was given ECT which might be an eye-opener for some on this forum. Sheila had never harmed her children in the past and as I say when someone acts one way in life and is reported to have acted differently after death I'm afraid alarm bells start to ring.

Yes he was given ECT but did not turn into a zombie Steve.  It does however tell how very compelling these psychotic voices are and how difficult they are to resist.  This man was not a diagnosed schizophrenic but was suffering from a psychotic illness.  Not particularly comparable with Sheila who was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic but nonetheless an interesting insight into psychotic illness.

[Caroline R]

No Caroline because if Sheila just happened to kill four members of her family and Jeremy had had no plans to kill them then everything Julie reported about Jeremy's intentions are lies and she cannot be blamed for their deaths. Additionally of course continuing the innocent Jeremy scenario the relatives must have dripped some of Sheila's blood from the knicker bucket into a silencer then scratched the mantlepiece with it.

A lot less complicated than wet suits, peddling like the clappers by the light of the moon and having Cock Robin reveal which window Jeremy left by!!