Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[Caroline R]

Caroline, that post of Steve's to which you are responding certainly portrays her as being the personality we believed her to be at the time!!!!! You ask why she didn't go to the police? I have suggested, that by supposedly knowing for a full year of his plans but doing/saying nothing, not only does her silence make her complicit, it suggests encouragement and the giving of permission. I'm convinced that her motive was greed. I believe she had her heart set on becoming Mrs Bamber with all the goodies she imagined went with it and when she realized it wasn't going to happen she took steps to ensure that nobody else would have Jeremy and line her own pockets while she was doing it.

Well said April and I agree!!

[Steve_uk]

The scenario is yours, not ours!!

No Caroline because if Sheila just happened to kill four members of her family and Jeremy had had no plans to kill them then everything Julie reported about Jeremy's intentions are lies and she cannot be blamed for their deaths. Additionally of course continuing the innocent Jeremy scenario the relatives must have dripped some of Sheila's blood from the knicker bucket into a silencer then scratched the mantlepiece with it.

[lookout]

But why does Jeremy deny ever saying these soundbites out of context? Why not give an explanation for all of them:Charles Marsden's,James Richards',Doris Foakes',Robert Boutflour's,Barbara Wilson's angst let alone Julie's evidence. They all have to be lying-why? I can only intimate that Jeremy can't think of any rational explanation to cover himself.

Steve,,it's not a case of Jeremy " covering himself ". He didn't know the half of what was going on behind his back,such as planning and scheming,and the fact that he also wasn't aware of the 50% ownership of land between his father and the Eatons.
Remember,,it was John Eaton who dared to bash Neville outside the pub,,because he thought Neville had overcharged him.? I wonder if Jeremy knew about that incident at the time and how it came about.
Now who's the greedy one/s in the family,,who have the brass-neck to fight over land which eventually became theirs anyway. Still they carried on arguing because this time,it was Anthony Pargeter who'd been fleeced.
When a young man punches an elderly man,,it hits rock-bottom in my estimation,,and shows that person up for the type they are,,no better than a thug/yob.

[Jane]

Julie was driven to achieve and maybe many people underestimated her just as people underestimated Margaret Thatcher. It's impossible to know whether Julie sacrificed five victims on the altar of perceived future wealth,just as I'm unsure as to whether Margaret Thatcher ever loved Denis or his money,but they both worked hard throughout their careers and just don't fit the profile of someone looking to make a fast buck and damn the consequences. A personality flaw in both of them not to see the bigger picture or are we judging with hindsight-impossible to know definitively.

Steve, what a very interesting admission and I entirely agree. She was driven. It marries well with my own assertion that Julie was far and away the stronger character of the pair. It may then follow, that what she told EP that Jeremy had done, was what she wished he'd had the guts to do. Maybe it was something that she's fantasized about. Maybe she thought it would be one in the eye of the rellies, who, I imagine liked her about as much as they liked Jeremy. Certainly, it would have been payback time for June who had dared to call her a harlot. Of the two of them, she was far more ambitious than Jeremy, who because it wasn't strictly necessary for him to achieve, didn't need to try. His future with property, land and wealth was assured, he didn't need to work for it. For an ambitious woman, she must have tasted her future and seen herself as being part of all that. Then he dumped her and that bright, monied future had gone and she might have had to walk away with nothing. Lookout has that jeremy was all mouth and a bit of a wimp. I think that's probably correct. I don't believe he committed that crime for the simple reason that he just wasn't hungry enough to do it but I do think that the thought of him doing it would have been very attractive to Julie.

[Steve_uk]

Steve,,it's not a case of Jeremy " covering himself ". He didn't know the half of what was going on behind his back,such as planning and scheming,and the fact that he also wasn't aware of the 50% ownership of land between his father and the Eatons.
Remember,,it was John Eaton who dared to bash Neville outside the pub,,because he thought Neville had overcharged him.? I wonder if Jeremy knew about that incident at the time and how it came about.
Now who's the greedy one/s in the family,,who have the brass-neck to fight over land which eventually became theirs anyway. Still they carried on arguing because this time,it was Anthony Pargeter who'd been fleeced.
When a young man punches an elderly man,,it hits rock-bottom in my estimation,,and shows that person up for the type they are,,no better than a thug/yob.

Of course I don't blame Jeremy for all the sundry unsavoury activities going on in the background,but there is a pattern to Julie's statement whereby Jeremy is worried he won't get his inheritance for all kinds of reasons including the thought that June might change her will in favour of the Church. It's this insecurity in Jeremy as he finds he cannot possibly live up to be the kind of son his parents want him to be that is behind the murders,where with the pressure off Jeremy can start afresh and live life as he wants. The irony was that Nevill and June were moving in Jeremy's direction and tried to be more accommodating and it's this dilemma which Jeremy faced as he telephoned Julie to say "Tonight's the night" when probably some trivial incident at the Farm had resolved the issue in favour of killing and he realized he had a window of opportunity to do away with them all.

[susan]

Hello april

I don't think Julie knew anything of any plans of Jeremy's for one year as their was nothing to know as he never said it to her.  I am not saying he did not make silly remarks about what he could or would like to do and when the time suited her i.e. when she had been dumped she put everything together and came up with her own story everything got out of hand and she had no way of turning back at the onset I am sure she did not mean it to go as far as it did but when it was out of control she made the best of the situation and had her moments of fame and her cheque for £25.000 nice compensation for her for not being the next Mrs Bamber of WHF.

[Jane]

Hello april

I don't think Julie knew anything of any plans of Jeremy's for one year as their was nothing to know as he never said it to her.  I am not saying he did not make silly remarks about what he could or would like to do and when the time suited her i.e. when she had been dumped she put everything together and came up with her own story everything got out of hand and she had no way of turning back at the onset I am sure she did not mean it to go as far as it did but when it was out of control she made the best of the situation and had her moments of fame and her cheque for £25.000 nice compensation for her for not being the next Mrs Bamber of WHF.

Susan, you've summed up beautifully everything I've been trying to say and to use Steve's words, she was driven.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, what a very interesting admission and I entirely agree. She was driven. It marries well with my own assertion that Julie was far and away the stronger character of the pair. It may then follow, that what she told EP that Jeremy had done, was what she wished he'd had the guts to do. Maybe it was something that she's fantasized about. Maybe she thought it would be one in the eye of the rellies, who, I imagine liked her about as much as they liked Jeremy. Certainly, it would have been payback time for June who had dared to call her a harlot. Of the two of them, she was far more ambitious than Jeremy, who because it wasn't strictly necessary for him to achieve, didn't need to try. His future with property, land and wealth was assured, he didn't need to work for it. For an ambitious woman, she must have tasted her future and seen herself as being part of all that. Then he dumped her and that bright, monied future had gone and she might have had to walk away with nothing. Lookout has that jeremy was all mouth and a bit of a wimp. I think that's probably correct. I don't believe he committed that crime for the simple reason that he just wasn't hungry enough to do it but I do think that the thought of him doing it would have been very attractive to Julie.

No I think Jeremy wanted a total change of scene as evinced by his statements to others after the murders that he might dabble in Buddhism in India for awhile and then run a wine bar in Dorset. The tragedy was that his plans for the future fell on deaf ears whilst his parents were alive because their whole raison d'etre was the farm,and Jeremy was de facto tied to the farm during the lifetime of his parents.There was even a clause in Nevill's will about the trustees having to be satisfied which would have frightened Jeremy(we know he snooped into the safe from Barbara Wilson's evidence)into giving the outward appearance of farming those last few months. The truth about Jeremy's real persona had been very different as he worked in bars where he originally met Julie,and of course on his return from the Antipodes he chose not to work on the farm but obtain employment at the Little Chef off the A12.

[susan]

april at the onset she was driven by jealousy and anger and felt she had lost control of Jeremy as I feel she always had it then things got out of hand and she could not turn back and even will have convinced herself that the love of her life deserved to die in prison and she was right to do what she did and the charity work is just to appease her conscience but you take it from me one day it will catch up with her and she will have to face her demons.

[lookout]

Hello april

I don't think Julie knew anything of any plans of Jeremy's for one year as their was nothing to know as he never said it to her.  I am not saying he did not make silly remarks about what he could or would like to do and when the time suited her i.e. when she had been dumped she put everything together and came up with her own story everything got out of hand and she had no way of turning back at the onset I am sure she did not mean it to go as far as it did but when it was out of control she made the best of the situation and had her moments of fame and her cheque for £25.000 nice compensation for her for not being the next Mrs Bamber of WHF.

What you might call payment for services rendered.!

[Steve_uk]

april at the onset she was driven by jealousy and anger and felt she had lost control of Jeremy as I feel she always had it then things got out of hand and she could not turn back and even will have convinced herself that the love of her life deserved to die in prison and she was right to do what she did and the charity work is just to appease her conscience but you take it from me one day it will catch up with her and she will have to face her demons.

She already has faced her demons with nightmares..(where's that thread about Julie putting up those plywood chairs after the school bell has rung?). As for Jeremy he needed a woman at Bourtree Cottage to justify the presence of the ladies' bicycle there,and you're right Julie put two and two together post-murders.

[lookout]

april at the onset she was driven by jealousy and anger and felt she had lost control of Jeremy as I feel she always had it then things got out of hand and she could not turn back and even will have convinced herself that the love of her life deserved to die in prison and she was right to do what she did and the charity work is just to appease her conscience but you take it from me one day it will catch up with her and she will have to face her demons.

Some things do have a habit of blowing up in your face,Susan.Give it time.

[Jane]

No I think Jeremy wanted a total change of scene as evinced by his statements to others after the murders that he might dabble in Buddhism in India for awhile and then run a wine bar in Dorset. The tragedy was that his plans for the future fell on deaf ears whilst his parents were alive because their whole raison d'etre was the farm,and Jeremy was de facto tied to the farm during the lifetime of his parents.There was even a clause in Nevill's will about the trustees having to be satisfied which would have frightened Jeremy(we know he snooped into the safe from Barbara Wilson's evidence)into giving the outward appearance of farming those last few months. The truth about Jeremy's real persona had been very different as he worked in bars where he originally met Julie,and of course on his return from the Antipodes he chose not to work on the farm but obtain employment at the Little Chef off the A12.

You will of course, recall that the will to which you refer was drawn up whilst Jeremy was still a minor so very naturally trustees would have been appointed.

There is much to me about Jeremy's utterances, which for the most part are just hearsay anyway, that says "Hot air." Possibly, in the beginning, Julie may have believed him to be as driven as herself.

The eldest son of my farming friends did nothing very different, until he was in his early twenties, from what you berate Jeremy for doing. I imagine that had you been born into that world you would have done exactly the same.

[lookout]

Did anyone notice the build of Jeremy in 1985/6.? Not exactly a Mr Universe against his father. Sheila had more strength in her little finger during one of her " bouts ",than Jeremy had in the whole of his body. One backhander from his father would have sent Jeremy to the floor,,the size and strength of Nevilles' hands.

[Steve_uk]

You will of course, recall that the will to which you refer was drawn up whilst Jeremy was still a minor so very naturally trustees would have been appointed.

There is much to me about Jeremy's utterances, which for the most part are just hearsay anyway, that says "Hot air." Possibly, in the beginning, Julie may have believed him to be as driven as herself.

The eldest son of my farming friends did nothing very different, until he was in his early twenties, from what you berate Jeremy for doing. I imagine that had you been born into that world you would have done exactly the same.

But the Prodigal Son got tired of waiting for his inheritance.he got tired of his boring old parents and goading and insulting them wasn't enough for him. What started out as a sensitive callow boy learned the ropes very quickly and realized on which side his bread was buttered. He could only see a lifetime stretching out before him of the 24/7 farming culture sitting on the tractor surveying that drab Essex countryside when he longed for the bright lights of London. With all five dead it became a reality for five weeks at least.