Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[Jane]

Exactly, so why didn't she go to the police? Was she that selfish that she would put herself before justice for 5 human beings? Or was she simply a cold hearted, jealous woman seeking revenge on someone who she had set her sights on but who she would never have? I'll go with the, latter!!

Caroline, that post of Steve's to which you are responding certainly portrays her as being the personality we believed her to be at the time!!!!! You ask why she didn't go to the police? I have suggested, that by supposedly knowing for a full year of his plans but doing/saying nothing, not only does her silence make her complicit, it suggests encouragement and the giving of permission. I'm convinced that her motive was greed. I believe she had her heart set on becoming Mrs Bamber with all the goodies she imagined went with it and when she realized it wasn't going to happen she took steps to ensure that nobody else would have Jeremy and line her own pockets while she was doing it.

[susan]

Hello april

I think with the money Patti saves from ciggies she should buy crates of wine to compensate

[killingeve]

Yes but when Jeremy wanted children of his own Suzette either genuinely had miscarriages or was not pregnant in the first place. This was another turning point as Jeremy drifted into a vacuum at an age where many men would be frightened of being tied down.

There seem to be a lot of ulterior motives involved in this whole affair: Jeremy going through the motions of farming to please his parents,Jeremy attending the party to discover when the twins would be arriving at the Farm,Colin inviting Jeremy to the party so Jeremy might bring up with his parents a different treatment for Sheila,and Sheila herself going to White House reluctantly again out of monetary considerations.

I know there's not one model for families but this one did seem particularly dysfunctional.

Hi Steve_uk

I was not aware of CC asking JB to broach the subject of SC's mental health treatment with NB and June?  According to CC's book he states that he and SC thought her treatment needed changing (although he doesn't elaborate how) and that he was to raise the matter with NB and June when dropping SC and the twins off at WHF for what was sadly to be the last time    However he does not follow through on his promise to SC and devotes quite a few words describing how guilty he felt about yet again letting SC down.  It strikes me that CC was perhaps a little intimidated by NB and June?  For example he drafted a letter intended for NB but for whatever reason(s) didn't send it and didn't follow through on the above either? 

CC's letter intended for NB but not sent

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

Excerpt From Colin Caffell's Book

"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam.  Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden.  Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it?  I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence.  They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong.  These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".

I think the way in which 'closed' adoptions were socially engineered during the so-called 'Baby Scoop Era' put these families at risk of dysfuntion.  Imo June's mental illness and religious mania put the Bamber family at additional risk.

[Steve_uk]

OK Daniel, do you mind if I ask you a few questions about the crime scene evidence? 

1, Were there any fiber evidence that belonged to Jeremy found in the main bedroom?

2, Were there any fiber evidence that belonged to Jeremy found anywhere at the crime?

3, Were there any fingerprints that belonged to Jeremy on the inside and outside windows of WHF?

4, Were there any hair evidence that belonged to Jeremy found on any of the victims or anywhere else at WHF?

I will answer my own questions, because there are none and if there are none then how do you suppose he was there, when there is no forensic evidence to put him there?  Sorry, that was a sneaky likkle question at the end of that...

Oh and lets not forget the silencer....that was found several days later, placed in the vicinity of the crime scene, chucked in the back of the boot alongside other guns, handled by various people, placed into a bag, then placed into a kitchen towel holder with a surviving hair that was finally lost in transit...oh and inside the silencer MAY HAVE HAD Sheila's DNA inside of it.  Not very conclusive is it?

So what have we got then Daniel as regards forensic evidence, not a lot is there?

I tell you what we have got....We have amended documents as well as incomplete ones and sheer incompetence of a police force handling a crime scene, whether they believed it to murder/suicide or not and lets not forget the gross misconduct of destroying evidence in 1996.....  I didn't make up that up Daniel it is the truth and none of it is hearsay or from a novel...

Hello btw

Hi Patti with respect Jeremy's defence team could always have argued that some fibre or other got into the master bedroom on a previous occasion as it was Jeremy's second home with part of Jeremy's wetsuit hanging in the wardrobe in a room with a placard marked "Jeremy's Room" on the door,another reason why I think Jeremy began to resent the twins as usurpers when he was expected to finally settle down and do the hard grafting whilst Sheila was living a subsidized life in London. Of course we don't know for sure that there was no forensic evidence linking Jeremy to the crime as he was only examined weeks later when tiny specks of blood were found on one of Jeremy's shirts,though the Prosecution were unable to link it to the crime due to the passage of those intervening weeks when Jeremy was at liberty.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve_uk

I was not aware of CC asking JB to broach the subject of SC's mental health treatment with NB and June?  According to CC's book he states that he and SC thought her treatment needed changing (although he doesn't elaborate how) and that he was to raise the matter with NB and June when dropping SC and the twins off at WHF for what was sadly to be the last time    However he does not follow through on his promise to SC and devotes quite a few words describing how guilty he felt about yet again letting SC down.  It strikes me that CC was perhaps a little intimidated by NB and June?  For example he drafted a letter intended for NB but for whatever reason(s) didn't send it and didn't follow through on the above either? 

CC's letter intended for NB but not sent

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

Excerpt From Colin Caffell's Book

"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam.  Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden.  Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it?  I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence.  They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong.  These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".

I think the way in which 'closed' adoptions were socially engineered during the so-called 'Baby Scoop Era' put these families at risk of dysfuntion.  Imo June's mental illness and religious mania put the Bamber family at additional risk.

It's in one of Colin's statements to Police I think that he was going to ask Jeremy if he would have a word with his parents about changing Sheila's treatment;whether he meant doctor or medication I'm not sure. It's unfair to blame Colin for Sheila's plight as schizophrenics can be arduous to live with to say the least,and I'm sure many people look back on people who have passed away with regrets and the thought that they could have done more-I know I have.

[Jane]

Hi Patti with respect Jeremy's defence team could always have argued that some fibre or other got into the master bedroom on a previous occasion as it was Jeremy's second home with part of Jeremy's wetsuit hanging in the wardrobe in a room with a placard marked "Jeremy's Room" on the door,another reason why I think Jeremy began to resent the twins as usurpers when he was expected to finally settle down and do the hard grafting whilst Sheila was living a subsidized life in London. Of course we don't know for sure that there was no forensic evidence linking Jeremy to the crime as he was only examined weeks later when tiny specks of blood were found on one of Jeremy's shirts,though the Prosecution were unable to link it to the crime due to the passage of those intervening weeks when Jeremy was at liberty.

Usurpers? Steve, those little boys can hardly be said to have taken up residence at WHF. The last time Sheila had visited was the September of the previous year. Is there evidence to say they visited without her?

[killingeve]

It's in one of Colin's statements to Police I think that he was going to ask Jeremy if he would have a word with his parents about changing Sheila's treatment;whether he meant doctor or medication I'm not sure. It's unfair to blame Colin for Sheila's plight as schizophrenics can be arduous to live with to say the least,and I'm sure many people look back on people who have passed away with regrets and the thought that they could have done more-I know I have.

I don't think I've blamed CC for SC's plight?  If I have it certainly wasn't intended.  This may sound harsh but I blame the authorities for approving June as a suitable adopter as I don't believe she was.  Just because an adopter is married, middle class, law abiding etc does not mean that they will make a suitable adoptive parent.  The fact that June became mentally ill as a result of her decision to adopt SC and was allowed to go on and adopt a second child, JB, is imo scandalous.

[Steve_uk]

It does tally with Mike's because we are both saying that when she was jilted she started bad mouthing him, hinting that he killed his family. Possibly the story started small but then grew until she out right accused him and she was forced into going to the police NOT because she felt guilty, but because she had no choice. Her story had gone too far and as she had already lost Jeremy, she didn't want to lose face!!

That's possible but you have to remember the course of events whereby the crimes were regarded by the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones as four murders and a suicide and he had previously thrown the relatives out of his office as interfering busybodies for trying to suggest that Jeremy was involved. In the light of this it's hardly surprising that an outsider student teacher did not have the effrontery to challenge how the investigation was going.

[Steve_uk]

Usurpers? Steve, those little boys can hardly be said to have taken up residence at WHF. The last time Sheila had visited was the September of the previous year. Is there evidence to say they visited without her?

They were heirs to the estate of the Bambers which is all Jeremy cared about by that stage. As Julie enquired when Jeremy was on one his vitriolic rants:"Why don't you just walk away?" Jeremy replied:"Because I've got too much to lose."

[Steve_uk]

Caroline, that post of Steve's to which you are responding certainly portrays her as being the personality we believed her to be at the time!!!!! You ask why she didn't go to the police? I have suggested, that by supposedly knowing for a full year of his plans but doing/saying nothing, not only does her silence make her complicit, it suggests encouragement and the giving of permission. I'm convinced that her motive was greed. I believe she had her heart set on becoming Mrs Bamber with all the goodies she imagined went with it and when she realized it wasn't going to happen she took steps to ensure that nobody else would have Jeremy and line her own pockets while she was doing it.

Of course no blame whatsoever is attached to Jeremy in this scenario for devising his monstrous scheme in the first place..

[Jane]

Steve, not for a moment do I think that Julie ever lost sight of who she thought she was and where she intended getting to. Her problem was getting there without losing out.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, not for a moment do I think that Julie ever lost sight of who she thought she was and where she intended getting to. Her problem was getting there without losing out.

Julie was driven to achieve and maybe many people underestimated her just as people underestimated Margaret Thatcher. It's impossible to know whether Julie sacrificed five victims on the altar of perceived future wealth,just as I'm unsure as to whether Margaret Thatcher ever loved Denis or his money,but they both worked hard throughout their careers and just don't fit the profile of someone looking to make a fast buck and damn the consequences. A personality flaw in both of them not to see the bigger picture or are we judging with hindsight-impossible to know definitively.

[Jane]

Of course no blame whatsoever is attached to Jeremy in this scenario for devising his monstrous scheme in the first place..

As I said yesterday, what we have  is a few soundbites taken out of context, a relative who admits to detesting him, and a money mad woman who said, after she's been jilted, that he'd told her what he's planned. Other than that, there's a dodgy silencer, or maybe three, conveniently found by the very people who stood to gain from his conviction. Apart from that Steve, there is NOTHING which points to Jeremy.

[Steve_uk]

As I said yesterday, what we have  is a few soundbites taken out of context, a relative who admits to detesting him, and a money mad woman who said, after she's been jilted, that he'd told her what he's planned. Other than that, there's a dodgy silencer, or maybe three, conveniently found by the very people who stood to gain from his conviction. Apart from that Steve, there is NOTHING which points to Jeremy.

But why does Jeremy deny ever saying these soundbites out of context? Why not give an explanation for all of them:Charles Marsden's,James Richards',Doris Foakes',Robert Boutflour's,Barbara Wilson's angst let alone Julie's evidence. They all have to be lying-why? I can only intimate that Jeremy can't think of any rational explanation to cover himself.

[Caroline R]

Of course no blame whatsoever is attached to Jeremy in this scenario for devising his monstrous scheme in the first place..

The scenario is yours, not ours!!