Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[mike tesko]

DCI 'Terry Gibbons, arrived at the scene at 7:10am, and carried out duties to ensure the safety and preservation ofd the scene, as outlined in page 1 of his witness statement:-

[Steve_uk]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,184.msg485.html#msg485

[Steve_uk]

There are five stages of grief as Elizabeth Kubler Ross tells us here:http://www.businessballs.com/elisabeth_kubler_ross_five_stages_of_grief.htm

Colin discusses the murders here:https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=204511019644030&id=187953254568881

Did Jeremy ever go through any of these stages,or did he just never have any grief in the first place,turning on the water works for the cameras but smirking before he even left by the lychgate when he thought the cameras had gone?

[lookout]

There are five stages of grief as Elizabeth Kubler Ross tells us here:http://www.businessballs.com/elisabeth_kubler_ross_five_stages_of_grief.htm

Colin discusses the murders here:https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=204511019644030&id=187953254568881

Did Jeremy ever go through any of these stages,or did he just never have any grief in the first place,turning on the water works for the caneras but smirking before he even left by the lychgate when he thought the cameras had gone?

That's strange,Steve,,Julie did the same. Handkerchief at the ready in court,,then straight to collect her £25,000 ( pre-arranged ) smiling all over her face. Selective emotions.
Emotionless at the mortuary. Not a tear. What do you make of that.? Jeremy couldn't bring himself to go.

[Jane]

There are five stages of grief as Elizabeth Kubler Ross tells us here:http://www.businessballs.com/elisabeth_kubler_ross_five_stages_of_grief.htm

Colin discusses the murders here:https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=204511019644030&id=187953254568881

Did Jeremy ever go through any of these stages,or did he just never have any grief in the first place,turning on the water works for the cameras but smirking before he even left by the lychgate when he thought the cameras had gone?

Steve, you will of course know that the five stages of grief don't conveniently run one through five to a given time scale for each and every person, so it may not be immediately obvious to some that the grieving process has started.

I was convinced that I wouldn't miss my mother but I was assured that I would and I did. Who would have believed that I would miss all that disapproval and spitefullness, the sheer lack of motherliness, but I did. I missed its absence.................not that I wished for its return once I was freed from it.

The Cruse organization is not recognized by therapists because it wont "befriend" where police are involved, which means that a mother who stands accused of murdering her child is not deemed to be in need of "befriending". I can only hope that Jeremy has been able to talk with someone about his loss, because he HAS suffered a loss whether you think so or not. He has also had to come to terms with learning about what the rest of the family felt about him, which means that if he ever walks free he still has nobody he can call "Family."

[Patti]

Steve, you will of course know that the five stages of grief don't conveniently run one through five to a given time scale for each and every person, so it may not be immediately obvious to some that the grieving process has started.

I was convinced that I wouldn't miss my mother but I was assured that I would and I did. Who would have believed that I would miss all that disapproval and spitefullness, the sheer lack of motherliness, but I did. I missed its absence.................not that I wished for its return once I was freed from it.

The Cruse organization is not recognized by therapists because it wont "befriend" where police are involved, which means that a mother who stands accused of murdering her child is not deemed to be in need of "befriending". I can only hope that Jeremy has been able to talk with someone about his loss, because he HAS suffered a loss whether you think so or not. He has also had to come to terms with learning about what the rest of the family felt about him, which means that if he ever walks free he still has nobody he can call "Family."

[/color]

This makes me feel numb inside.  When a child is born, we are under the delusion that that child will be loved throughout its natural days on this earth.  But in Jeremy's case he was given away when he was born, to a well to do family and well respected one at that.  I feel sure that during Jeremy's life at home, he had some warmth and love from his adopted parents.  Not to have this would have been cruel and I doubt NB and JB were like that in real life.  They were quiet people, maybe they were none mixing people who liked to stay private....therefore kept their children private in a sense they never had friends round for parties and did not attend local school....But, we know Jeremy did take friends home when he got older.... McDonald, Julie and Suzette...did not Jeremy invite his parents for a meal with his girlfriend Mrs Ford....So not all was bad at home.  From what I have picked up, it was a more controlling situation from home than anything else....The young Jeremy and even Sheila both left home at a young age and did the complete opposite to what their parents requested of them...I assume this in a normal thing to do....Having had two children of my own, they do rebel at some point in their lives...both mine were in their late teens....but once in their 20's they started to more adult like and rebelled less...

I had an awful time with my son...when he was 15 to 16 I could have easily given up on him, things got so bad that I kicked him out after he had gone for me with his fist...but did not hurt me, but that was enough for me to pack his stuff and throw him out.  It was an awful time, because all though I wanted to contact him, I didn't....I left the ball in his court and told him when he had left that he needed to be more responsible and that I would not have him back on his terms, but on mine.  A week later he phoned me up to ask me how I was....the call was strained and we hardly spoke to each other....but at least he had taken the steps to ring me, but still I had no apology for what he had done...Then he rang me again and asked me if he could come to see me....He came we had tears, he was sorry and we talked and talked about what had happened....for the first time I understood what he was going through.  Then the I started to blame my self.  I had become selfish, I only thought about how I was feeling and not about how he was feeling...I was grieving for my parents and had no time for anyone only me....but my poor children were grieving to....and I had overlooked this...and this is why my son did what he did...

I had also deprived him of a home with a father....and he was hurting. He didn't understand why my two of my marriages had failed....Now he knows why, he is a much better person and has come to terms with it all....He does not have anything to do with his father even though we have tried to get this to happen, its one of those things at the end of the day...my son has no feelings for him and his father has none for him....

My 2nd husband who is not my children's father my son still talks too, and so do I even though we divorced 10 years ago, we all remain friends....and that is how it should be. It could never have been this way with my 1st husband.....why I am rattling on and on I do not know....I suppose we all have to get things off our chests and it does you good to talk...about things that are build up inside of you.....Gawd! my post is nearly as long as NN's lol  :D :D :D :D

[lookout]

If I started,Patti,,there'd be no room on the forum for Jeremy.  
Still,,it goes to prove that there are NO perfect families,,and I defy anyone who says otherwise.

[Patti]

If I started,Patti,,there'd be no room on the forum for Jeremy.  
Still,,it goes to prove that there are NO perfect families,,and I defy anyone who says otherwise.

Hi lookout

We are not trained to parents nor are we perfect at being parents. Its a true saying the older you get the wiser you get....

I was scared stiff when my daughter was born, I honestly did not know how to change her nappy or how to feed her. I tell you I was so worried about that side of it. No wonder we get this PND when we have children because we are not prepared for it. I was frightened to death of bathing her for the first time, in case she slipped or I broke her arm by holding her.  They say parenthood is based on instinct, but I had not got a clue what to do...and when my dear Gran explained things to me it made me worse...lol It sounded like I had to tie knots and throttle her while changing her nappy...no disposables then....we had Zorbit....washed by hand with Lux flakes that made your hands bleed....oh and napisan...Those were the days..I remember looking at her all the time and the slightest cry I used to pick her up...then came the floor pacing during the night and the daytime, the cries were horrendous...I knew something was wrong...yep trapped wind!!!! and the more she cried the more it became trapped...until one almighty burp and then fast asleep she was...bless...

[lookout]

Hi lookout

We are not trained to parents nor are we perfect at being parents. Its a true saying the older you get the wiser you get....

I was scared stiff when my daughter was born, I honestly did not know how to change her nappy or how to feed her. I tell you I was so worried about that side of it. No wonder we get this PND when we have children because we are not prepared for it. I was frightened to death of bathing her for the first time, in case she slipped or I broke her arm by holding her.  They say parenthood is based on instinct, but I had not got a clue what to do...and when my dear Gran explained things to me it made me worse...lol It sounded like I had to tie knots and throttle her while changing her nappy...no disposables then....we had Zorbit....washed by hand with Lux flakes that made your hands bleed....oh and napisan...Those were the days..I remember looking at her all the time and the slightest cry I used to pick her up...then came the floor pacing during the night and the daytime, the cries were horrendous...I knew something was wrong...yep trapped wind!!!! and the more she cried the more it became trapped...until one almighty burp and then fast asleep she was...bless...

Yes,,Patti,,difficult times.There's no handbook supplied with a child. I was okay,because I had my nurse's training under my belt,,though you're still not prepared for their individualities and differences in characteristics when bringing them up the same.
I had no trouble with the children,,even the " ready-made " ones when my own came along because they all blended. Probably because I didn't show any difference in the two which weren't my biological ones.
I was strict,but fair,,and they were all well behaved.
 However,,I changed my stance with the g/children,,,and what a difference that made.  They did exactly what they liked,and I couldn't do a thing about it because they weren't mine. An entirely different set of rules were cobbled up by their parents. Instead of me being used to " landing out " when they threw tantrums,,they were left to their own devices to act out their aggression which invariably led to the destruction of a toy,or worse,,a kick in the shins of the parents. Ye Gods,,I used to be mortified.
How they've all grown up to be well-balanced individuals mystifies me to this day.

[maggie]

Hi lookout

We are not trained to parents nor are we perfect at being parents. Its a true saying the older you get the wiser you get....

I was scared stiff when my daughter was born, I honestly did not know how to change her nappy or how to feed her. I tell you I was so worried about that side of it. No wonder we get this PND when we have children because we are not prepared for it. I was frightened to death of bathing her for the first time, in case she slipped or I broke her arm by holding her.  They say parenthood is based on instinct, but I had not got a clue what to do...and when my dear Gran explained things to me it made me worse...lol It sounded like I had to tie knots and throttle her while changing her nappy...no disposables then....we had Zorbit....washed by hand with Lux flakes that made your hands bleed....oh and napisan...Those were the days..I remember looking at her all the time and the slightest cry I used to pick her up...then came the floor pacing during the night and the daytime, the cries were horrendous...I knew something was wrong...yep trapped wind!!!! and the more she cried the more it became trapped...until one almighty burp and then fast asleep she was...bless...

Hi Patti, I had am interesting introduction to motherhood.    All that and more, as she was really sick in an hotel halfway around the world, never knew a baby could shriek so much and sleep so little   Amazing how we survive stuff and now she's 27. 8)xxx

[Caroline R]

Yet Colin is not castigated half as much as Julie who similarly was unsuspecting that someone who appeared to all intents and purposes as normal could in reality be capable of such bestiality.

Unsuspecting? He 'supposedly' told her of his plans a year before the deaths and if she is using the weak excuse of 'I didn't think he was serious' she could have been left in no doubt 'after' the event but still didn't nothing. The ONLY reason she brought this 'story' to the fore was because she was jealous and not just of the females in Jeremy's life but also his friends. I don't think you will ever find much sympathy for Julie here - even among the guilty supporters!!

[Jane]

[/color]

This makes me feel numb inside.  When a child is born, we are under the delusion that that child will be loved throughout its natural days on this earth.  But in Jeremy's case he was given away when he was born, to a well to do family and well respected one at that.  I feel sure that during Jeremy's life at home, he had some warmth and love from his adopted parents.  Not to have this would have been cruel and I doubt NB and JB were like that in real life.  They were quiet people, maybe they were none mixing people who liked to stay private....therefore kept their children private in a sense they never had friends round for parties and did not attend local school....But, we know Jeremy did take friends home when he got older.... McDonald, Julie and Suzette...did not Jeremy invite his parents for a meal with his girlfriend Mrs Ford....So not all was bad at home.  From what I have picked up, it was a more controlling situation from home than anything else....The young Jeremy and even Sheila both left home at a young age and did the complete opposite to what their parents requested of them...I assume this in a normal thing to do....Having had two children of my own, they do rebel at some point in their lives...both mine were in their late teens....but once in their 20's they started to more adult like and rebelled less...

I had an awful time with my son...when he was 15 to 16 I could have easily given up on him, things got so bad that I kicked him out after he had gone for me with his fist...but did not hurt me, but that was enough for me to pack his stuff and throw him out.  It was an awful time, because all though I wanted to contact him, I didn't....I left the ball in his court and told him when he had left that he needed to be more responsible and that I would not have him back on his terms, but on mine.  A week later he phoned me up to ask me how I was....the call was strained and we hardly spoke to each other....but at least he had taken the steps to ring me, but still I had no apology for what he had done...Then he rang me again and asked me if he could come to see me....He came we had tears, he was sorry and we talked and talked about what had happened....for the first time I understood what he was going through.  Then the I started to blame my self.  I had become selfish, I only thought about how I was feeling and not about how he was feeling...I was grieving for my parents and had no time for anyone only me....but my poor children were grieving to....and I had overlooked this...and this is why my son did what he did...

I had also deprived him of a home with a father....and he was hurting. He didn't understand why my two of my marriages had failed....Now he knows why, he is a much better person and has come to terms with it all....He does not have anything to do with his father even though we have tried to get this to happen, its one of those things at the end of the day...my son has no feelings for him and his father has none for him....

My 2nd husband who is not my children's father my son still talks too, and so do I even though we divorced 10 years ago, we all remain friends....and that is how it should be. It could never have been this way with my 1st husband.....why I am rattling on and on I do not know....I suppose we all have to get things off our chests and it does you good to talk...about things that are build up inside of you.....Gawd! my post is nearly as long as NN's lol  :D :D :D :D

Patti HI. I hope when and if Steve reads your anguished and very honest post, he'll realize that children rebel. To me, he seems to expect something other from Jeremy. It often seems as if he expects that Jeremy should have followed parental rules without question and should have put aside any and all desires of his own, knuckle down and do what had been planned for him, take over the farm. In other words, he should have been grateful because he'd been adopted. I REALLY hope I'm wrong in that.

[maggie]

Unsuspecting? He 'supposedly' told her of his plans a year before the deaths and if she is using the weak excuse of 'I didn't think he was serious' she could have been left in no doubt 'after' the event but still didn't nothing. The ONLY reason she brought this 'story' to the fore was because she was jealous and not just of the females in Jeremy's life but also his friends. I don't think you will ever find much sympathy for Julie here - even among the guilty supporters!!

Excellent post Caroline. Either way she ruined lives.  Unbelievable.  Don't think a spot of charity work will bring back June, Neville, Sheila and the twins or give Jeremy his life back.

[maggie]

Patti HI. I hope when and if Steve reads your anguished and very honest post, he'll realize that children rebel. To me, he seems to expect something other from Jeremy. It often seems as if he expects that Jeremy should have followed parental rules without question and should have put aside any and all desires of his own, knuckle down and do what had been planned for him, take over the farm. In other words, he should have been grateful because he'd been adopted. I REALLY hope I'm wrong in that.

Hi april, both my children have spent time working and travelling abroad.  I must say one of them went on a tad longer than hoped for.....5 years    but they are better more compassionate adults because of all they've seen. imo.  We are supposed to push the boundaries and if our parents don't like it well in most cases that just has to be tough luck for the parents.  I agree, Jeremy's behaviour was quite normal imo 

[Jane]

Hi april, both my children have spent time working and travelling abroad.  I must say one of them went on a tad longer than hoped for.....5 years    but they are better more compassionate adults because of all they've seen. imo.  We are supposed to push the boundaries and if our parents don't like it well in most cases that just has to be tough luck for the parents. 

Maggie, we are only allowed to push boundries if our paren ts are wise, generous and confident enough to allow us space to do it. For some adoptees, where money and property is up for grabs, it's as if they have to earn it by working hard to prove to their parents and wider family that their adoption was justified.