Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[Steve_uk]

I know what his views are now but I also know what he believed before Jeremy was arrested. If you are unable to see why it was easier for him to believe it was Jeremy in place of Sheila then you know little about psychology. He had no suspicions about Jeremy until after he was arrested, but Jeremy's  arrest freed Colin from his own guilt - it would have been a relief because now he had a target to project is anger at!!

Yet Colin is not castigated half as much as Julie who similarly was unsuspecting that someone who appeared to all intents and purposes as normal could in reality be capable of such bestiality.

[mike tesko]

I suppose, that is why, once the nature of the investigation altered from SC/688/85 into SC/786/85, DCI 'Terry' Gibbons was extracted from the role he played at the scene, when Sheila who was very much still alive, had been found in the kitchen upon entry by the raid team...

How could Jeremy or anybody lead Sheila to her death in the bedroom, if the raid team found her upon entry to the kitchen?

Why can't Gibbons speak for himself, about what he did at the scene, what he saw, what he was told, who told him, who he told, and so on and so forth...

Funny thing....

Not one senior officer testified during Jeremy Bambers trial about how the bodies were found at the time of entry by the original raid team...

[Jane]

I suppose, that is why, once the nature of the investigation altered from SC/688/85 into SC/786/85, DCI 'Terry' Gibbson was extracted from the role he played at the scene, when Sheila who was very much still alive, had been found in the kitchen upon entry by the raid team...

How could Jeremy or anybody lead Sheila to her death in the bedroom, if the raid team found her upon entry to the kitchen?

Why can't Gibbons speak for himself, about what he did at the scene, what hesaw, what he was told, who told him, who he told, and so on and so forth...

A very valid point, Mike. Could Steve please explain how, if Jeremy had ascertained Sheila's demise by shooting her, not once, but TWICE in the bedroom to which he had led her gently by the hand to a bible class (at that tme of night!!) with Mummy, could she then, dead or alive, have managed to get to the kitchen.

[maggie]

I always thought Sheila's behaviour was in predictable limits,even during her psychoses which is textbook schizophrenia,if mild. She had such limited horizons and was a gullible,easily-led girl which is why Jeremy reckoned upon being able to lead her to her death.

Steve, Sheila's schizophrenia was not mild. I think it was Dr Ferguson who stated the opposite. Sheila was very ill. Colin knew she was very ill and also feared for the safety of the twins while in her care.  I dont know if you wont admit the extent of Sheila's illness because it doesnt fit with your hatred of Jeremy or because you think she needs protecting. The tragedy is Sheila needing protecting when she was alive not now. At least she deserves to have the degree of her illness understood. Its not a disgrace to be mentally ill Steve, its no different from any other illness.

[Steve_uk]

The child killers Jeremy Bamber and Anders Behring Breivik: a messed up childhood,some greater purpose in mind,cowards at heart,they take central nervous system stimulants for a short time to give them gung-ho bravado,then as the drugs wear off they revert to what appears routine conventionality..

[Steve_uk]

A very valid point, Mike. Could Steve please explain how, if Jeremy had ascertained Sheila's demise by shooting her, not once, but TWICE in the bedroom to which he had led her gently by the hand to a bible class (at that tme of night!!) with Mummy, could she then, dead or alive, have managed to get to the kitchen.

She may have gone down for some food,we don't know the times exactly,but she then remained confined to her room as the forensic evidence implies,until Jeremy came into her room in the middle of the night provoking a startled reaction as anyone would be under similar circumstances.

[Jane]

Yet Colin is not castigated half as much as Julie who similarly was unsuspecting that someone who appeared to all intents and purposes as normal could in reality be capable of such bestiality.

But Colin was not living en famille with either Jeremy, the Bambers OR with Sheila who seemingly had only visited the farm once since her 1984 visit after her first breakdown. How could he have been expected to know what was going on. I don't imagine the Bambers went to great lengths to keep him informed.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, Sheila's schizophrenia was not mild. I think it was Dr Ferguson who stated the opposite. Sheila was very ill. Colin knew she was very ill and also feared for the safety of the twins while in her care.  I dont know if you wont admit the extent of Sheila's illness because it doesnt fit with your hatred of Jeremy or because you think she needs protecting. The tragedy is Sheila needing protecting when she was alive not now. At least she deserves to have the degree of her illness understood. Its not a disgrace to be mentally ill Steve, its no different from any other illness.

I don't read anywhere that Sheila heard voices though she may have had delusions about being the Virgin Mary or Joan of Arc. This is when the idea of burning her to death like Joan came to the mind of Jeremy and he speculated out loud to Charles Marsden. I also read that Sheila had no religious mania during her time with Colin,and of course in Nevill's company a miraculous transformation in her psychosis was evident,which is never mentioned by the Jeremy supporters,surprising given that Nevill decided he could not reason with his daughter on that one occasion of a Wednesday morning and had to call problem-solver Jeremy..

[maggie]

The child killers Jeremy Bamber and Anders Behring Breivik: a messed up childhood,some greater purpose in mind,cowards at heart,they take central nervous system stimulants for a short time to give them gung-ho bravado,then as the drugs wear off they revert to what appears routine conventionality..

Good try Steve but Anders Behring Breivek is a completely different kettle of fish. How can you compare...he has admitted taking central nervous system stimulants Jeremy Bamber has not there is also no proof he had taken anything that night. Your imagination runs riot at times. Please dont tell me his pupils were enlarged...exhaustion, lack of food and sleep....low blood sugar common cause of pupil dilation also shock. If AE looked in the mirror that morning she may have found her pupils were dilated as well.

[Jane]

I don't read anywhere that Sheila heard voices though she may have had delusions about being the Virgin Mary or Joan of Arc. This is when the idea of burning her to death like Joan came to the mind of Jeremy and he speculated out loud to Charles Marsden. I also read that Sheila had no religious mania during her time with Colin,and of course in Nevill's company a miraculous transformation in her psychosis was evident,which is never mentioned by the Jeremy supporters,surprising given that Nevill decided he could not reason with his daughter on that one occasion of a Wednesday morning and had to call problem-solver Jeremy..

As he couldn't on those occasions when she had to be taken into hospital because possibly on those occasions he wasn't there to witness the extremes of her condition as witnessed by Freddie, the electrician she may have attacked had it not been for the window between them, possibly Colin's mother when she ordered her out of the house, maybe at times, even Colin himself when she threw things at him. You seem to be doing your best to imply that her condition was so mild that meds were almost unnecessary and her hospital stays were simply to give her a break from a stressful life. You seem to forget that the last time an ambulance was called it took three people to calm her.

[maggie]

I don't read anywhere that Sheila heard voices though she may have had delusions about being the Virgin Mary or Joan of Arc. This is when the idea of burning her to death like Joan came to the mind of Jeremy and he speculated out loud to Charles Marsden. I also read that Sheila had no religious mania during her time with Colin,and of course in Nevill's company a miraculous transformation in her psychosis was evident,which is never mentioned by the Jeremy supporters,surprising given that Nevill decided he could not reason with his daughter on that one occasion of a Wednesday morning and had to call problem-solver Jeremy..

Not all p schizophrenics hear voices, we dont know all Sheila's symptoms. However her delusions and paranoa were real enough. Because she had reacted one way to Nevill before does not mean she always would due to the nature of her illness. Having a sheila with a gun may have caused Nevill to ask Jeremy for backup but no doubt he never believed she would actually use it as he didnt understand the dangers of sheila's illness. I would guess she shot and badly injured Nevill,, shortly after the phone call to Jeremy and before he had any idea she would do such a thing imo

[Steve_uk]

Funny thing....

Not one senior officer testified during Jeremy Bambers trial about how the bodies were found at the time of entry by the original raid team...

There was a suggestion I read somewhere that one of the twins may have been buried with bullets still inside him.

[maggie]

She may have gone down for some food,we don't know the times exactly,but she then remained confined to her room as the forensic evidence implies,until Jeremy came into her room in the middle of the night provoking a startled reaction as anyone would be under similar circumstances.

Why no bloodied footprints in Sheila's room? Why not one drop of blood if JB had shot and killed 4 people before going to her room.

[Steve_uk]

As he couldn't on those occasions when she had to be taken into hospital because possibly on those occasions he wasn't there to witness the extremes of her condition as witnessed by Freddie, the electrician she may have attacked had it not been for the window between them, possibly Colin's mother when she ordered her out of the house, maybe at times, even Colin himself when she threw things at him. You seem to be doing your best to imply that her condition was so mild that meds were almost unnecessary and her hospital stays were simply to give her a break from a stressful life. You seem to forget that the last time an ambulance was called it took three people to calm her.

Sheila never even took up a kitchen knife,let alone sprayed her sons' bodies with bullets in an arc pattern. Of course Sheila was ill,nobody is saying she wasn't,just the evidence points to her being incapable of executing these murders in the way it has been alleged.

[Steve_uk]

Not all p schizophrenics hear voices, we dont know all Sheila's symptoms. However her delusions and paranoa were real enough. Because she had reacted one way to Nevill before does not mean she always would due to the nature of her illness. Having a sheila with a gun may have caused Nevill to ask Jeremy for backup but no doubt he never believed she would actually use it as he didnt understand the dangers of sheila's illness. I would guess she shot and badly injured Nevill,, shortly after the phone call to Jeremy and before he had any idea she would do such a thing imo

But why did Nevill hang up his only lifeline if as Jeremy said "my father sounded terrified when he called". Why leave June and the twins alone upstairs and why use the kitchen phone when one of the others would have been nearer?