Resurrected Thread - Curtains, Lights, and a figure at a window

[Hartley]

This is a thread which mysteriously went missing at some point during or after the switch over of the forum.
Here are the posts from that thread retrieved as best I can from cached pages.

PAGE 1

POST BY KALDIN

I just want to clarify some points as I've read conflicting reports about the above.Normally when people retire for the night they draw the curtains in their bedroom. Perhaps they don't in the country - I don't know, but I would think that most people do.In the picture of the main bedroom which was in the papers, the curtains were not drawn, so were they pulled back or were they not drawn by the Bambers when they went to bed?Lights - it's not clear to me which lights were on, but I would have thought that the killer would have needed to put the light on in the main bedroom to see what he or she was shooting at. The same with the boys' bedroom and the kitchen.The alleged figure at the window. There are conflicting reports about this. Bews said in a video that it was Myall who thought he saw something move, and that he pointed to a window at the back of the house - the window upstairs on the right. Bews also said there was no light on.  Bews said he didn't see anything himself and then he decided it was a trick of the light. I'm not sure what room that would be. In other reports it says that Bews, Myall, and Jeremy saw a figure at the main bedroom window walking from right to left. That is a completely different story, so which is it?If it was a trick of the light, I assume that means the light from the moon. Where would the moon be in relation to the house? [/color]

POST BY CURIOUSESSEX

Kaldin

In my opinion the alledged figure at the window could only have been Sheila, if it was anyone.

POST BY NEWBURY1

Hi kaldin - good new post.Bews in a TV interview stated that it was a bright moonlit night. This may have allowed the killer to operate without lights on if the curtains were left open (or had opened them prior to shooting). In August it would have presumably been warm and curtains / windows could have been left open for the breeze?It would be intertesting to know if there is a report indicating, in detail, which curtains were open and which were closed closed, and what lights if any were on, when police first encountered the scene?However it has also been reported, I think, that police at the scene reported lights on in the house. I have also read somewhere that the polices reports seemed to conflict as to which lights were on leading to an assumption that the killer (Sheila) was still moving around the house switching different lights on.Sadly, as we know, what the police reported and documented about that night was vague (bordering on useless)! I would also like confirmation of the window the alleged figure was meant to have been seen in? 

POST BY HARTLEY

I can't quite work out where the moon was exactly at what time. But doing a bit of searching on the web it would seem that there was a full moon on 02/08/85 and a last quarter moon on 10/08/85, so the moon would have been somewhere between the two.Source: http://www.lunarium.co.uk/calendar/universal.jsp?calendarYear=1985&calendarMonth=6Also Sunset for 07/08/85 was at: 20:37And Sunrise for 08/08/85 was at: 05:59The moon rise was at 23:00 on 07/08/85The moon set was at 12:46 on 08/08/85Source: http://www.thetimeandplace.info/suntimes/sunmapThe moon rises in the East and sets in the West within 5 degrees of where the sun rises and sets, so from what I can work out the moon would have been on the East side (Pages Ln side) of White House until approx 6:30 in the morning when it would be directly overhead and then continue to move to the West. As sunrise was at 5:59 the moon would have been on the East side of White House all night.For clarity the front door (front of the house) of White House faces South and the rear yard door of White House (where the police entered) faces West.The above is as best as I can interpret but feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong.

[Hartley]

PAGE 2

POST BY MB1

From the photos, it's a very cluttered house.

Difficult to navigate in darkness even if you knew it well. Very difficult for a stranger.

I had thought the lights were off.

If one 'small' dog was under the bed in main room, where was the second?

POST BY KALDIN

Yes - nobody seems to know if the lights were on or off, or if some were on and some were off.

POST BY MB1

The David Shaw manuscript says the house was in darkness.

Even if she grew up in it, Sheila now only stayed in the house from time to time. How could she have roamed that cluttered house in darkness? Playing that scene out in my head, with all those stairs etc, it's really quite creepy.

The last person to leave...

POST BY MIKE TESKO

Police statements say the kitchen light was switched on...

POST BY MIKE TESKO

Second dog was found inside one of the outbuildings...

POST BY MB1

Where the bullet was found?

Assume the second dog is the labrador.

Didn't Neville routinely walk the dogs before turning in at night? Also, I'm playing to a stereotype here,  but was it Neville who secured the house at night?

POST BY MIKE TESKO

Yep, second dog was Labrador, kept at night in outbuilding...

And yes...

From what I have been told, Ralph used to walk both dogs late at night, and often did not go to sleep in the bed in the main bedroom. He used to fall asleep |I am told in the lounge, or sometimes in his upstairs office

POST BY ALEX

So when the shooting started, he could have been in either of those places rather than upstairs in the main bedroom.

POST BY KALDIN

There was a phone in the upstairs office apparently so why not phone from there?

Also, there were too many bullets in the main bedroom to account for June and Sheila, and the prosecution said he was shot in there.

POST BY ALEX

There was his blood on a wall near a kitchen door as well.  I don't know which door.  I wasn't suggesting he might not have been upstairs at one point (after all his blood type was find on the stair well wall) but it struck me that if he had been asleep upstairs then as the duvet was not left pulled down on his side of the bed, he may have been disturbed by something before the killer entered the room.  Of course if he were asleep downstairs Jeremy would have been taking an somewhat bigger risk perhaps trying to enter the house undetected.

POST BY KALDIN

The blood was on the wallpaper in the hall just outside the kitchen. I think it was the blood of a male person so they assumed it was Neville's.

I didn't know that blood had been found on a stairwell wall though.

I think if it could be worked out what Neville was doing and how he came to be in the kitchen, there would be a lot more clarity about what happened generally. Nobody can really work it out though.

POST BY ALEX

The blood spatter analyst (his name escapes me right now, but he worked on the OJ Simpson case) said he had some ideas about what Nevill was doing.  The doc is on here somewhere . . .  A shame he didn't provide them.

I hope I'm not mistaken about the blood on the stair well wall.  I was posting from memory.

POST BY MB1

Wasn't the chair he was found it known as 'Neville's' within the family i.e. the one he habitually used? Unless I've read so much, I'm now adding my own evidence...

In which case, was he placed/forced there as a final act by someone who knew him - a kind of symbolic 'and now you can die there'? or just coincidence? Or an attempt to block the door?

Could Sheila have dragged him into that chair?

POST BY ANDREA

the chair was laid on its side, and neville was perched on the chairs arm, a really strange position he was found in.im not sure sheila would have had the strenght to lift him up and place him there, i could be wrong,im wrong about most things these days

POST BY MIKE TESKO

That is precisely it, yes...

[Hartley]

PAGE 3


POST BY MIKE TESKO

If you look at the position of Ralph's body in Pc Birds photographs, it appears that he fell into that general posture, from a position behind the internal door through which the armed police officers entered the kitchen. Indeed, the chair upon which Ralph's body appears to be precariously balanced, also could have been toppled over from that same general s]=direction...

In my opinion...

POST BY ANDREA

there was a pair of socks next to shielas body, ralph wasnt wearing socks when he was found. maybe ralph was in the bedroom getting ready for bed when the shooting started?

POST BY MIKE TESKO

Ralph's day clothes were not found to be present in the main bedroom, only the day clothes and under garments of June Bamber, and Sheila Caffell...

I believe police gathered enough evidence as part of the original investigation to show or prove that Sheila slept in same bed as June before shootings commenced...

PS Adams,(Commander of firearms operation) made a statement saying that he and other officers believed that June and Sheila had been sat up reading the bible before the shootings commenced...

Why would PS Adams, say that?

POST BY SHONAPUGS

Hi, Andrea - I agree, I don't think that Sheila could have manhandled Ralph's body into a chair. And he was so badly injured that surely she would have been covered in his blood?

POST BY ANDREA

mike colin caffell was actually told by the police that june was found on the bed......

POST BY MB1

Based on the photos etc, I also guesstimate that Sheila was sleeping in the main bedroom.

Where were Neville's discarded clothes found? Were there socks with them?

POST BY MIKE TESKO

Yes, Ann Eaton was initially told by a police officer, that both Sheila and June were originally found on the but Ann Eaton refused to identify who that police officer was?

POST BY SHONAPUGS

Unless PS Adams was channeling Doris Stokes, there was no way that he could presume that June and Sheila were cosied up in bed, sharing a bible. Pure,silly supposition.

POST BY ANDREA

i will have a look in my book tomorrow mike and see if i can shed more light on that one. It was also mentioned in one of the tabloids in the days after the murders that shiela and june were found on the bed with the rifle in between them.

POST BY AJAX

I had no idea this was the case. I'd wondered what Sheila had been doing to be found on the far side of the bed in the main bedroom. The information that the bed in the spare room hadn't been slept in (if it was Sheila's) had always encouraged visions of a psychotic woman pacing about unable to rest before finally snapping and fetching the gun. If she was sleeping in the main bedroom, on the left side of the bed with June (which would make sense as that side was closest to the door that led through to the twin's room) she might never have even left the bedroom at all.

POST BY KALDIN

I read that one of the beds in Sheila's room had been used - I think it was in a statement somewhere.

However, the fact that Sheila was in the main bedroom at all is quite odd. It also bothers me that Neville was in the kitchen when he was shot dead. It was said that he was shot in the main bedroom first but then why did he go down to the kitchen?

POST BY AJAX

Perhaps killer was expecting to find Neville and June in the same room? Perhaps Neville had been in the bed in the spare room, came out to find June shot (while killer was down the hall shooting the boys?) and ran downstairs to get to a telephone, or was shot and injured on the landing/near June and then ran downstairs, leaving blood smears on walls as he did so, pursued by killer to kitchen, fight, fatal shots? Impossible to know of course.

POST BY KALDIN

It's possible. Neville being in the bedroom doesn't really add up. I just can't see him leaving June there and going down to the kitchen.

POST BY AJAX

If you assume the killer isn't Sheila and the bedroom phone was now in kitchen (never been satisfactorily explained why either, that one), if it was me and I woke to find there was a gunman in my house who'd already shot my wife and grandchildren but overlooked me, I think I would probably try and get to the nearest phone and or the nearest weapon, be they knives or guns, which at WHF would mean the kitchen.

POST BY KALDIN

Yes, I see that. That's why Neville being in the main bedroom doesn't really add up. If he was there in bed when June was shot he wouldn't wake up to find her shot - he'd know about it as it was happening. Would he then really push past the killer to go down to the kitchen?

I agree that he would try to arm himself as well - he was a sitting duck in the kitchen.

There was a phone upstairs in the office but perhaps the killer was blocking the path to the office.

[Hartley]

PAGE 4


POST BY SIMONG

I see Sheila being forced at gunpoint into the main bedroom. The killer would want all the adults together. I feel Nevills 4 left side bullet wounds happen in the main bedroom as he tries to get out of bed. The Killer runs out of ammunition and Nevill heads downstairs to try and disarm/overpower them.

POST BY KALDIN

This phone call business is absurd.

If Sheila had shot June before Neville phone Jeremy, Neville wouldn't mess about phoning Jeremy surely. The only way I can imagine Neville phoning Jeremy is if Sheila hadn't shot anyone yet and Neville didn't really think she would - he just wanted some help to calm her down. In that case how on earth did he get shot in the bedroom (there were 13 bullet cases in there remember)?

If Jeremy did it, then Neville didn't phone him obviously so did he go down to the kitchen to arm himself and Jeremy caught up with him before he did so?

POST BY AJAX

I haven't seen many of the photographs, but in the ones I have there doesn't seem to be much/any blood on the sheets on Neville/Sheila's side of the bed, whilst there are plenty on June's side. Was any of Neville's blood found in the bedroom? or just the extra bullet casings which suggested he had to have been shot there?

POST BY SIMONG

The Police took five blood samples from the bedroom and they were all Junes, Sheila is definately dead in there so it wasn't that thorough. Nevills left side wounds are to the elbow, shoulder, left of the lip and lower jaw. He will no doubt be bleeding, it is not necessarily goint to be pouring everywhere and even with those wounds he could still have got out of bed quickly.

POST BY KALDIN

If Sheila was forced into the main bedroom after June was shot then there would be blood on the bottom of her feet - she would have had to walk right past June and over the blood stained carpet.

The only way Neville and June could be shot in the bedroom from the same load of bullets is if there were 11 bullets in the gun - that's possible of course. Then the killer runs out of ammo and Neville goes right past him and down to the kitchen where he's overpowered? Possible, but I'd expect there to be more blood on the stairs. Also, the killer had to reload at that point so what was Neville doing whilst that was happening?

POST BY KALDIN

Perhaps the killer didn't follow Neville down to the kitchen - perhaps Neville followed the killer downstairs to try to overpower him or her.

POST BY SIMONG

I think Sheila was forced in there before anyone is shot. I think she was woken up at gunpoint and taken into the main bedroom, forced to kneel or sit on the far side of the bedroom. She is shot in the neck first, four shots at Nevill (left side injuries) three at June (2 to the right side of the chest, 1 to the neck) and then the killer needs to reload. Yes only 8 bullets in the magazine. 3x8 =24 and 1 extra for Sheila to make it look like a suicide.

POST BY KALDIN

It's really bad that they didn't check the bedroom thoroughly. Even if they assumed that Sheila had done it, surely they would still want to know the sequence of events and who was where when they were shot. There's no way to know now as they burned the carpet a few days afterwards. It really was shoddy.

POST BY KALDIN

So you think that Neville and June were in bed asleep and Sheila was forced into there and shot first? I would have thought they would have woken up before that happened.

POST BY BB2010

Re: Sheila being forced anywhere: does there appear to be any evidence of that other than the marks on her arm? Do we need to look at whether Sheila had taken sedatives to sleep? Would that have made it easier to move her around? I had read (sorry can't remember where) that Sheila was very hard to wake in the mornings (ref children and school etc)

POST BY MB1

Hadn't thought in terms of looking for a weapon to defend yourself - that does make some sense of the kitchen (in addition to the phone being there) plus access to the gun cupboard.


What if Sheila was forced through the interconnecting door on Neville's side of the bed. No blood there, apart from her own. I had wondered about her being semi-sedated, but the only drugs found in her were the monthly anti-psychotic drug and cannabis - could they date the cannabis use? Recent use could have left her cloudy.

Look at the fight Neville put up. If he were upstairs and his family still alive (apart from the killer) I can't visualise him leaving them.

Getting this order right is very difficult, but may hold answers. If only we could go back with today's blood analysis techniques - and unburnt carpets, wallpapers and linen...

POST BY SIMONG

Oh yeah they are woken up, hence June being shot sitting up. Sheila is taken in there at gunpoint, Nevill and June wake up. Everyone is threatened not to make a noise or move or else. Sheila is forced to sit or kneel with the gun levied at her neck. Awkward moments where there is probably a bit of talking and then Sheila is shot in the neck, Nevill shot four times attempting to get out of the bed and June three times. The killer heads downstairs to reload, Nevill follows to disarm/struggle with the murderer.

POST BY AJAX

I can't believe that four bullet wounds in total and two to the face specifically, if fired in the bedroom and with Neville then making it all the way down to the kitchen, would not leave some if not large amounts of Neville's blood to be found there.

POST BY SIMONG

Wherever he is shot there should be a lot of blood but save for some blood found on the wallpaper in the hallway leading to the kitchen, there isn't a lot of Nevills blood and yet he has been shot 8 times and only 3 cartridge cases in the kitchen so mathmatically he shot was somewhere else. You need to understand that the police have not investigated thoroughly, especially on blood samples.

POST BY KALDIN

There was a lot of blood around Sheila's body - drips of blood. I don't think they came from her. It's been said it came from June, but then what was June doing round that side of the bed? If Sheila had been shot first I suppose June might have made it round that side of the bed to try to save her. I can't think of any other reason why June would go round that side of the bed and then go back towards the door.

[Hartley]

PAGE 5

POST BY KALDIN

In the picture taken of the bedroom of the bed, the door on Neville's side of the bed was open. What was through there? The stairs to the kitchen?

POST BY MB1

Would this explain the cartridge on the stairs? Neville thinks this is a good opportunity to attack?
So where did the bullet go? Into Neville?

But there's only a smear of blood by the door.

Did the police check for any signs of struggle OUTSIDE the house? (Sorry to muddy waters...)

POST BY MB1

So June is alive after Sheila...
I asked about this door being open before.
I thought it connected to other bedrooms.
No blood drips in adjoining room?

POST BY AJAX

Doesn't that door lead to a small room/cupboard which has another door through to the room the twins were in? That's why Sheila sleeping on that side of the bed with June is such a good fit.

POST BY KALDIN

It's not clear if the drips of blood around Sheila's body are also underneath her body, but I just can't see that it's Sheila's blood. It might be I suppose - I'm not sure about blood spatter patterns (sounds gruesome I know).  It could be Neville's blood of course but the police didn't test the blood thoroughly enough to know whose it was.

Re the door on Neville's side of the bed, I'm really not sure where that went. The plan seems to indicate some stairs in that room, or another door into the boys' room.

POST BY KALDIN

Where did the stairs from the kitchen come out upstairs? The plan definitely implies that there were stairs in that room.

POST BY AJAX

I don't know which thread to look in for the plans of the house, but from memory the kitchen stairs came up down the landing on the opposite side of the house to the main bedroom and twins room.

POST BY SIMONG

It would also make sense from the shell casings found (13 in the bedroom) June (7) Sheila (2) that Nevill would have been shot four times in there.

POST BY AJAX

Thanks for the plan, the kitchen stairs are those at the bottom left of the picture, I think.

POST BY SIMONG

what are those stairs going down from the bedroom adjoining the main bedroom, surely they must lead down to the kitchen as well?

POST BY KALDIN

I think you're right. Maybe there's just a step down into the twin's room.

So if Sheila went to the main bedroom via that little room on Neville's side of the bed she wouldn't have to walk past June and step in the blood.

That house is like a maze. 

POST BY KALDIN

That's what I was wondering too. It has an arrow and it says "dn" - meaning down.

POST BY AJAX

On floorplans "down" doesn't mean literally downstairs, just the direction of travel indicated by the arrow, so I think that just means a single step down into the next room.

POST BY KALDIN

There's a window in that room off the main bedroom. I wonder if that's where PC Myall saw something move.

[Hartley]

PAGE 6

POST BY SIMONG

On every other stair case on that map is dn and up

POST BY MB1

Additions to the house could result in different levels, thus stairs but not staircases. (I grew up in one!) Otherwise, you would have to use a specific staircase depending on which room you wanted upstairs, as the stairs prevent passage across the landing. Unless you use the boys room/main bedroom as a rat run...

Which bedroom became the upstairs office?

POST BY SIMONG

ok that makes sense

POST BY ALEX

I understand that Sheila did have blood on the soles of her feet, contrary to what was said at the trial.  But what I don't understand is the assumption that the killer (or anyone wandering around the house) would have bloody feet and yet as far as I am aware there is no mention of any bloody footprints.  Have I got that wrong?  Does anyone know of a mention of bloody footprints somewhere?

POST BY KALDIN

No. In fact, there's remarkably little information about blood generally. Whoever fought with Neville must surely have stepped in blood unless the fight happened before he was shot at all.

POST BY MB1

Whoever fought with Neville must surely have stepped in blood unless the fight happened before he was shot at all

Someone here has just said that!

Could the socks by Sheila have been used to cover shoes/feet? Take them off, out through the adjoining door, through the adjoining bedrooms (no major floor blood from the boys) to the main stairs then out the downstairs bathroom window. No blood trail.

POST BY KALDIN

You'd still expect there to be bloody footprints of some sort though, and you'd expect there to be blood on the soles of the socks. It's just so frustrating that nobody bothered to check half of this stuff at the time. 

This business about the adjoining room is interesting - it's been overlooked until today.

POST BY

POST BY MB1

A list of questions - please supply answers if you know!

NOTHING disturbed on Nevill's bedside cabinet?

What about June's?

Upstairs office - a bed or sofa?

Again - mention of other rooms checked for blood spatter/signs of disturbance? Specifically the upstairs office and sitting room.

Given how long SOCOs were recently in that Bristol house, can you imagine how long they would be at WHF today...

POST BY MIKE TESKO

In upstairs office,  a large comfortable chair, at his desk,  that Ralph used to fall a sleep in...

THE END

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Regarding movement from the window...


Could the dog not have brushed the curtains? - at least formed some semblance of movement that was then assumed to be a person by the window? Seems as plausible as 'moonlight'.

Trouble with the moonlight idea is that on the surface, it would unlikely to fool anybody, but what sometimes happens is this:

Someone seems a 'shadow' of some description, caused by a trick of light.
it's 50/50 as to whether is really was something.
The person who saw it, is entirely honest and isn't sure.
They sit for a moment and 'run it through' again <--- this is where the mind plays tricks.
They convince themselves there was someone.
He tells someone else
etc etc
Now the imagination is reinforced by others saying "a sighting by the window"

It's quite a subliminal thing, but that initial 'maybe I saw something' becomes 'I DID see something'. (it's not too dissimilar to scary shadows as a child, only a little more complex)

[Hartley]

I suppose it's possible, but if it was the master bedroom window that PC Myall said he thought he saw a male figure then the curtains don't go to the ground, I'm not sure how big the dog was.

Unfortunately this seems to be one of those unprovable events, I'm not sure it could ever be established that there was a figure or a dog or a trick of the light.

[andrea]

were scene of crime ordered to take finger prints around the window in which the figure was seen?

if so, they must have been sure at the time they did see something for them to order fingerprints

as we know a trick of light wouldnt leave a print

[Reader]

Could the dog not have brushed the curtains? - at least formed some semblance of movement that was then assumed to be a person by the window?

Crispy was a Shih Tzu.

[Alex]

Could the dog not have brushed the curtains? - at least formed some semblance of movement that was then assumed to be a person by the window?

Crispy was a Shih Tzu.

Yes, the dog and curtains were too short for that - I suppose it could have jumped up at them, but I would guess there is some other explanation for the movement/figure seen.  I don't know how a movement which appeared to be figure standing at the window and then crossing from one side to the other could have been a trick of the light, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that someone was mistaken about their interpretation of a figure at the window, as in the way TBM describes.  Of course, this isn't something that will prove JB's innocence.  If there is evidence to prove that it will only explain (presumably) the account of a figure at the window!

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

Yes but indeed if there was a figure at the window that would mean that somebody was still alive inside the farmhouse after 3.00am. It was accepted at the trial that if Bamber had committed the murders he had done so between 12.30 and 3.00am.

[Hartley]

Yes but it was accepted at court that it was a trick of the light. So without evidence that can't be revisited.

It does reignite the third party involvement theory though.

What I do find suspicious is that police officers are trained in perception, for Myall to even extend that further by saying it was a male figure, not just a figure, seems too descriptive to be a 'trick of the light'.

I guess the mind is a funny thing though.

[mike tesko]

I suppose it's possible, but if it was the master bedroom window that PC Myall said he thought he saw a male figure then the curtains don't go to the ground, I'm not sure how big the dog was.

Unfortunately this seems to be one of those unprovable events, I'm not sure it could ever be established that there was a figure or a dog or a trick of the light.

---------------------------------

What EP need to do, is provde a copy of the mesaage that was passed from the scene, via police radio, after the figure was seen at the bedroom window, by the police - that way we would get a much better idea, of what the police actually saw, at the material time...

But, like most other things, which would tend to weaken the case, against Jeremy Bamber, this material is being withheld under pii rules...