Is this how it's going to work then?

[susan]

Hello Daniel

do you actually think Jeremy Bamber was a psychopath I thought he had been assessed 27 times and concluded he was not.  So the polygraph test could have been correct if the assessment was correct.

[Daniel_day]

i see now evidence that sheila was uncoordinated other than the rather dubious word of the relatives.

he husband never mentioned this and he was the one that really knew her.

her illness would not of made her uncoordinated.

No but her medication certainly would. Did you actually read my last statement? Just because Colin didn't mention it is not proof that she wasnt uncoordinated.  May I ask why you use the word 'dubious' when speaking of the word of the relatives? I am intrigued.
Please point me to the evidence that makes their word 'dubious, as opposed to a self-confessed thief, drug peddler and convicted mass murderer? I would like to see it. Thanks

[nugnug]

the word of anyone with a vested financial interest in the outcome of a criminal trial is dubious.

i as i said her husband never mentioned it.

her medication would not necessarily of affected her coordination.

[lookout]

the word of anyone with a vested financial interest in the outcome of a criminal trial is dubious.

i as i said her husband never mentioned it.

her medication would not necessarily of affected her coordination.

How right you are,nugs.

[Lugg]

An interesting debate, but one that is, in my opinion way off the mark.  I have researched this and found that Psychopathy is a VERY different condition to mental illness. Psychopathy is a personality trait NOT a mental illness. Someone with schizophenia who has become psychotic, does not know the difference between right and wrong. A psychopath KNOWS the difference between right and wrong, but simply does not care. Psychopaths are rarely psychotic.
Psychopathy is a personality disorder whereas schizophrenia is a brain disorder with a distinct medical cause and they are NOT the same thing at all and therefore have to be treated and judged differently.
A schizophrenic is a mental illness. They have emotional blunting, intellectual deterioration, social isolation, disorganized speech and behavior, delusions, etc. This can be treated with medication.
A psychopath however, cannot be treated. There is no cure for psychopathy, the condition can only best be contained and managed if possible. Psychopathy, unlike untreated schizophenic individuals can function in polite society extremely well. They can appear charming, full of life and attractive to many. However, under the surface they are callous, superficial and totally without conscience, empathy or remorse. They rarely, if ever admit culpability for their crimes and are considered generally incapable of accepting responsibility for their own actions unless it further their own ends.
In short the two are NOT the same, and it is morally and scientifically incorrect to judge them as such.

Hi Daniel. Does this mean that a psychopath is to be blamed for his/her own condition. Or is it something that he/she cannot control?

[killingeve]

No but her medication certainly would. Did you actually read my last statement? Just because Colin didn't mention it is not proof that she wasnt uncoordinated.  May I ask why you use the word 'dubious' when speaking of the word of the relatives? I am intrigued.
Please point me to the evidence that makes their word 'dubious, as opposed to a self-confessed thief, drug peddler and convicted mass murderer? I would like to see it. Thanks

Hi DD

According to Dr F he states "The drug has no noticeable effects ie slow movement, speech difficulties".  Had SC's prescribed drugs have caused uncoordination I would have expected Dr F to have stated so.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6196

[maggie]

An incorrect statement Maggie. Many psychopaths have taken and passed lie detector tests. Famously serial killer and psychopath Ted Bundy took and passed with flying colours several lie detector tests. The lie detector relies on reactions and emotions (i.e. stress from lying, fear, increases skin conductivity and heart rate) and as psychopaths have flattened affect (less strong emotions, especially less guilt/shame) then they have a far, far better chance of fooling a lie detector. Mind you, non-psychopaths have been known to easily pass them, they are not very reliable.
In short, the responses that psychopaths with exhib during a polygraph test are minimal compared to a non-psychopath. Normal responses to guilt, shame and embarassment are usually not present as the psychopath does not feel them in the first place.

Daniel, I do know about psychopaths, have read quite a lot about the subject and I know I hve read my statement that such tests have to be abandoned because of no reaction with a psychopath.  I shall try and find the relevant link.

[Lugg]

I know they are not the same, i wasnt saying they were Daniel. My point about Sheila is that she has been almost denied the right to be ill because of the stigma attached.
To all intents and purposes however the guilty brigade want him to be Jeremy Bamber is not a pdychopath and has no other personality didorder. He passed a polygraph test you cannot take such a test if you're a psychpath. The test would have been abandoned.

I have known two schitzophrenics and unfortunately I find it very difficult not to hold them responsible for their actions. The two that I have known were entirely selfish, self centred and did not care one iota about others. Also they were frequently violent as their medication became ineffective. We can of course read books about the subject. But take it from me that you will never understand the people who have schitzophrenia until you have lived with them. They can be sometimes very frightening and you cannot rely upon their honesty and good humour at all. It gives an entirely false impression of schitzophenia to say that they are continually away with the fairies. They, at least the ones I knew/know were very cold and calculating at times. They certainly do not walk around in a daze.

[nugnug]

the illness affect's different people in different ways its very hard to genralise some are away with the fairy's some arnt.

weather there selfish or unselsish has nothing to do with illness.

it would depend what they were like before were ill.

[lookout]

I have known two schitzophrenics and unfortunately I find it very difficult not to hold them responsible for their actions. The two that I have known were entirely selfish, self centred and did not care one iota about others. Also they were frequently violent as their medication became ineffective. We can of course read books about the subject. But take it from me that you will never understand the people who have schitzophrenia until you have lived with them. They can be sometimes very frightening and you cannot rely upon their honesty and good humour at all. It gives an entirely false impression of schitzophenia to say that they are continually away with the fairies. They, at least the ones I knew/know were very cold and calculating at times. They certainly do not walk around in a daze.

Lugg,,I actually know one of what you've described. Calculating is right.

[Daniel_day]

Hello Daniel

do you actually think Jeremy Bamber was a psychopath I thought he had been assessed 27 times and concluded he was not.  So the polygraph test could have been correct if the assessment was correct.

Thank you for your question Susan. A highly interesting one. I think it really depends on your viewpoint. If you take the view that he is guilty, then he is almost certainly a psychopath.
You mention that he has been 'assessed 27 times'. How do we know that the test was specifically for psychopathy? and not the normal battery of standard issue prison tests given out to most, if not all inmates that are Category A? or for any mental health issue? We must ask; who took the tests? what were they for specifically? who conducted them? Were they sanctioned by the prison or were they 'private tests'? was Dr Robert Hare's psychopathy check list (A useful diagnostic tool and now in general use) adhered to? Under what conditions were the tests undertaken?
The test for psychopathy is a very structured examination conducted over a series of interviews. The psychologist must ask a series of questions relating to emotional  responses Were you aware that at his orginal trial, his own defense called in a psychologist to examine Bamber in the hope that he would show Bamber to be a perfectly normal individual and were somewhat proturbed to find out that the psychologist whom they had hired had actually thought Bamber was a textbook psychopath? According to Roger Wilkes in his book 'Blood Relations' a book on the case, the eminent psychologist went on record as saying "If ever there was a psychopath, Jeremy Bamber is it"
Now read into that what you will, but it is the only examination by a non-prison psychologist that I know about. The others may have been conducted by prison councillors or run-of-the-mill young, untrained prison psychologists. We do not know what conditions these 'tests were carried out and for what criteria. These prison psychologists in assuming to be ‘expert witnesses’ in their preparation of risk assessment reports there are often so many references to, ‘it seems’, ‘what seems’, ‘I think’, ‘it appears’, ‘he appears to be’, ‘if’, ‘but’, ‘should he feel this or that’, ‘in the long term’, ‘research has shown’ (without reference to what that research is), ‘in the opinion of’, ‘in my opinion’ and so forth that one could be forgiven for thinking that many reports could well have been written by a clairvoyant or astrologer and at worst a betting man. These are NOT scientific tests, but merely an opinion. Psychopathy is extremely difficult to diagnose, due to the very nature of the individual under question. Psychopaths are extremely adept at manipulation, cunning and deceipt. Young, well-meaning or even hardened psychologists I would argue are often fooled by them.
Maggie I do believe that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath.I do not say this from a psychological standpoint as I am not qualified and would not like to guess, but merely from a criminal one. If he is guility, and my interpretation of the evidence leads me tot hsi conclusion, I believe he is, then it stands to reason that he is also psychopathic.

[Daniel_day]

the word of anyone with a vested financial interest in the outcome of a criminal trial is dubious.

i as i said her husband never mentioned it.

her medication would not necessarily of affected her coordination.

Wait a minute, lets turn that on it's head. Didnt Bamber have a vested financial interest too?
Just because someone may have financial interests int he outcome does NOT question their validity nugnug. Many such examples can be found in any trial of what you are referring to if you examine it close enough. Just because they can profit, doesnt mean they want to profit - dont confuse the two.

[maggie]

An incorrect statement Maggie. Many psychopaths have taken and passed lie detector tests. Famously serial killer and psychopath Ted Bundy took and passed with flying colours several lie detector tests. The lie detector relies on reactions and emotions (i.e. stress from lying, fear, increases skin conductivity and heart rate) and as psychopaths have flattened affect (less strong emotions, especially less guilt/shame) then they have a far, far better chance of fooling a lie detector. Mind you, non-psychopaths have been known to easily pass them, they are not very reliable.
In short, the responses that psychopaths with exhib during a polygraph test are minimal compared to a non-psychopath. Normal responses to guilt, shame and embarassment are usually not present as the psychopath does not feel them in the first place.

http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/lie-detector

Particularly paras 4 and 12 up from notes at bottom of page.

[nugnug]

it still means there word should not be excepted on its own unless there is evidence to confirm it.

and in the case of what they said about sheila there is not.

[Daniel_day]

Hi DD

According to Dr F he states "The drug has no noticeable effects ie slow movement, speech difficulties".  Had SC's prescribed drugs have caused uncoordination I would have expected Dr F to have stated so.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6196

Thank you for that NN, but you failed conveniently to include the paragraph directly written underneath. Sheila had smoked marijuana sometime before her death and she may of taken sedation medication; this would have made her slow, deliberate and uncoordinated. In fact Pamela Boutflour who spoke with Sheila on the phone the evening before certainly thought she was.