Main Bedroom

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

No, Chelmsey, I don't think that Sheila did shoot herself. I think that by the time the killer got to her, she was so paralysed with fear, she did as she was told. What else could she do?

Try to run? Attack her killer? I am not too sure about this "paralysed with fear" idea. I mean what was the worst the killer could do if she refused to kill herself? Kill her presumably. What did she have to loose?

[mb1]

No, Chelmsey, I don't think that Sheila did shoot herself. I think that by the time the killer got to her, she was so paralysed with fear, she did as she was told. What else could she do?

Try to run? Attack her killer? I am not too sure about this "paralysed with fear" idea. I mean what was the worst the killer could do if she refused to kill herself? Kill her presumably. What did she have to loose?

The first shot to her throat would have been fatal, just not immediately so.
Speculate that it's location would have caused difficulty breathing.
Plus fear does different things to people, even if they are not fatally injured.

Don't think anyone forced her to kill herself.
She either committed suicide of her own volition or was killed.

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

Don't think anyone forced her to kill herself.
She either committed suicide of her own volition or was killed.

I agree! This is becoming a bit of a habit 

[chelmsey]

MB1.............If you should spy this post,going back to your supposed theory  on mostly with which I agree,I have been trying to fill in the rest of it as in what clothes the killer would wear,how they would gain entry and exit etc.Im quite happy with my theories regarding these issues but just cannot come up with any explanation as to how Ralph sustained the gouge marks on his arms bearing in mind that my killer is wearing gloves!Do you have an idea or thoughts on this.?Also,the unexplained circle burn-type marks on Ralphs back.I think that you wrote somewhere that there were no corresponding marks on his pyjama top.Would you happen to know if there were any holes caused by bullets on his pyjama top? Trying to establish whether he was actually wearing it at the time or if it was "added" later.

[mb1]

MB1.............If you should spy this post,going back to your supposed theory  on mostly with which I agree,I have been trying to fill in the rest of it as in what clothes the killer would wear,how they would gain entry and exit etc.Im quite happy with my theories regarding these issues but just cannot come up with any explanation as to how Ralph sustained the gouge marks on his arms bearing in mind that my killer is wearing gloves!Do you have an idea or thoughts on this.?Also,the unexplained circle burn-type marks on Ralphs back.I think that you wrote somewhere that there were no corresponding marks on his pyjama top.Would you happen to know if there were any holes caused by bullets on his pyjama top? Trying to establish whether he was actually wearing it at the time or if it was "added" later.

Hi Chelmsey, I'm off for a flight so can't respond properly now. Sure others will!

Have you seen the photos of the marks on Nevill's arms? Recall them as the kind of lines you get when scratching rather than gouges, but could be wrong. Speculation, but if he was on his front and dragged up to the chair, could they have occurred then, his PJ top 'rucking' up? His PJ bottoms were certainly down. Just such an undignified end for a chap who comes across as having been fair minded and decent.

Wasn't it implied that Sheila's nails were too long to have made the marks and stayed intact? Assuming here that they are her own nails - does anyone know for sure? Can't remember many people having false nails around that time, but as a model it may have been something she was used to.

SimonG made interesting posts regarding the three 'burn' marks - they are on the forum somewhere.

Have you stayed up all night? You must be shattered!

[lebaleb]

The scatch marks could have been caused by Shiela having an episode earlier in the night, the broken dishes in the rubbish bin, before someone else did the shootings.

[lebaleb]

I don't really buy this theory that the cartridge on the stairs got stuck on someone's shoe and then left on the stairs. On the other hand, if that's where a shot happened, one would expect it to be to Nevill's back and he wasn't shot from behind at any point.
[/quote]

Two of Ralphs wounds seem to have been from behind. [See 'Bullet wounds to Ralph Bamber' thread]The wound to his shoulder and the grazing wound on his arm. They also seem to have a trajectory from above. One [or both] of them could have been fired by someone above behind him as he was going down the stairs. All of the other wounds seem to be pairs. I would guess two of the pairs in the main bedroom, arm and shoulder on the stairs [or one the kitchen], final pair in the kitchen.
I have a problem with the first two shots to RB being so close. You would expect Ralph to move between the shots unless he'd been knocked out or was lying down flat. Maybe the killer hid in the wardrobe after the first shots to June?
I can't understand the diagram for the bullet casings. 2002 appeal says 13 casings in or just outside the bedroom, so what are DRH 35,35,9 and 5; all associated with June? Why 2x no.7 &35?

[Hartley]

Also the main stairs turn 180 degrees, it would be conceivable that RB could have been shot on the stairs and hit on his front by the shooter leaning over the top landing balustrade.

[Kaldin]

Two of Ralphs wounds seem to have been from behind. [See 'Bullet wounds to Ralph Bamber' thread]The wound to his shoulder and the grazing wound on his arm. They also seem to have a trajectory from above. One [or both] of them could have been fired by someone above behind him as he was going down the stairs. All of the other wounds seem to be pairs. I would guess two of the pairs in the main bedroom, arm and shoulder on the stairs [or one the kitchen], final pair in the kitchen.
I have a problem with the first two shots to RB being so close. You would expect Ralph to move between the shots unless he'd been knocked out or was lying down flat. Maybe the killer hid in the wardrobe after the first shots to June?
I can't understand the diagram for the bullet casings. 2002 appeal says 13 casings in or just outside the bedroom, so what are DRH 35,35,9 and 5; all associated with June? Why 2x no.7 &35?

Yes, I think Nevill could have been shot at as he went down the stairs to the kitchen. That leaves three shots in the kitchen though rather than four, and as you say, the four shots to his head do seem to be in pairs and possibly at the same time.

I still think it's possible that Nevill was shot in bed or close to the bed. There are eight cartridges clustered on the right side of the bed, so at least one of them must have been a shot at Nevill - probably three of them if June was shot again twice near the door.

I agree with you about the diagram. There appears to be four loose bullets in the room - three on the bed and one near the chair. I don't know why two of them are called DRH35.

DRH7 is an empty cartridge and there are two of those.

[lebaleb]

[/quote]

The stairs in this diagram are different to the one in the floor plan
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,540.msg9873.html#msg9873
Was the bullet casing DRH14 actually found upstairs?

[Hartley]

Yes the stairs shown in that diagram are incorrect, there are a couple of steps down to a quarter landing, then the stairs turn right to go down stairs, or you carry on forward up another step to get to the rest of the upstairs.

I think the bullet case was found on the stairs.

[lebaleb]

The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.

[Kaldin]

The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.

Yes, that case on the stairs is a mystery. It's not certain that any of the four shots to his head would have killed him outright, only that the four together were fatal. There was an opinion somewhere that the four head shots were done at the same time, but perhaps that's not so. I would say that if he'd been shot in the head as well as sustaining four other shots he would have a lot of trouble getting to the kitchen, never mind fighting with anyone, but that's just my opinion

[grahameb]

I've been looking at the diagram and notice that Sheila is lying on the floor? This would probably mean that if she shot herself she was in the sitting position. I was wondering that if she was on the floor sitting up wouldn't the rifle be too long to get underneath her chin? It would be difficult for someone else to shoot her in that position also? Anyone else got any answers for that one? As it has been pointed out to me that I am no expert on murder. 

[mike tesko]

The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.

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Your views about this  interest me - thanks for posting them...