Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?

[Patti]

This doesn't follow,because the Raid Team stormed the house at 7:34am or 7:54am depending on which source you consult,and rigor mortis can take six hours to start,so Jeremy could have committed the murders around 3:00am,cycled home to Goldhanger and called Police and then Julie around 3:15am. It's also possible that rigor had not set into Sheila's beautiful hands because it starts first in the eyelids,neck and jaw and can take another four to six hours before spreading to other bodyparts and organs.

2 to 3 hours I believe....but it depend on age and temperature. I don't know where you get 6 hours from....

[Steve_uk]

2 to 3 hours I believe....but it depend on age and temperature. I don't know where you get 6 hours from....

From Wikipedia Patti:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

[Martin]

I thought dead people don't bleed......At what time do they stop bleeding??

I think that Mike means that pooled blood started to spill out when the body was disturbed. Of course, bleeding would have stopped long before rigor mortis had set in.

The one thing I think is certain is that, whoever put the body in that position, did it hours after Nevill's death.

[nugnug]

theres no way he had time to do it at 3 am.

kill 5 people then cycle back to phone back to phone someone all in 15 minutes

not mention in those h has got to have a fight with his father and carefully place the gun in his sisters hands theres no way on earth he could of done that in 15 minutes.

[Patti]

I think that Mike means that pooled blood started to spill out when the body was disturbed. Of course, bleeding would have stopped long before rigor mortis had set in.

The one thing I think is certain is that, whoever put the body in that position, did it hours after Nevill's death.

I don't know what to believe...have you ever seen the photo's of the Essex Boy's in the lab? There is blood everywhere....Does movement cause bleeding when you have been dead for ex number of hours....

Take a look at the photo of June she had a shot between the eyes but there is no blood coming from that wound....Anyway, its good night from me....Sleep well X

[Steve_uk]

theres no way he had time to do it at 3 am.

kill 5 people then cycle back to phone back to phone someone all in 15 minutes

not mention in those h has got to have a fight with his father and carefully place the gun in his sisters hands theres no way on earth he could of done that in 15 minutes.

DI Wilkinson cycled the murder route in six minutes.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle

[nugnug]

yes but theres also the strugell with ralph and the shooting of 5 people and the placeing the gun in shielas hand in the 9 spare minutes,

he also has to get indoors and pick up the phone and dial it.

oh i forgot to mention he would of also had to have reloaded.

[nugnug]

also cycling at 3 am in the countryside is not tha same as cycling at other times.

[Steve_uk]

He doesn't have to shoot them all and cycle back within 15 minutes.

[mertol22]

im no M.E.  but a few things come to mind, i have removed deceased people in this position that Nevill was found in, its possible he was still alive while in the chair and was left to die, his age , would have speeded up rm, its not always possible to flex limbs not all the time, if he was left to die jeremy must be innocent sheila could have used the last few hours to check from time to time , remember she could have tested for death , there was no need to confirm it because she would die also, a killer could not afford to wait,the gamble would be too great , lastly, because if jeremy was inside he would not have the outside on his mind, all it would take is unknown to him someone could have called the police because car theivs were on his land one knock on the door and its over think that over.

[Steve_uk]

im no M.E.  but a few things come to mind, i have removed deceased people in this position that Nevill was found in, its possible he was still alive while in the chair and was left to die, his age , would have speeded up rm, its not always possible to flex limbs not all the time, if he was left to die jeremy must be innocent sheila could have used the last few hours to check from time to time , remember she could have tested for death , there was no need to confirm it because she would die also, a killer could not afford to wait,the gamble would be too great , lastly, because if jeremy was inside he would not have the outside on his mind, all it would take is unknown to him someone could have called the police because car theivs were on his land one knock on the door and its over think that over.

The Jeremy supporters ascribe far too much to a Sheila in psychosis for my liking.

[mike tesko]

I can't see that the door behind Nevill would overturn the chair....it would shove it??????????

Hi Patti, The crime scene photographs taken, showing Ralphs body staged with his head in the coal hod, do not depict the scene pre-entry into the kitchen by the raid team. For a start, there was only one chair against the door through which the raid team eventually managed to gain access to the kitchen. Sat in this chair was the body of Ralph Bamber slumped forward, with his arms resting on the wooden arm rests iof the chair - he was clearly sitting down in this position before his body was displaced by the police when they got into the kitchen area. The edited parts of PS Paul Woodcocks witness statement which deal with entry into the kitchen through that kitchen door, have been altered to remove the detail of how police had to nudge open the door, and which toppled Ralphs body onto the kitchen floor. I am not saying that as soon as police officers started to exert pressure against the door, on the opposite side to where Ralph was sitting, that this pressure immediately toppled over the chair and Ralphs body, because I believe that what took place was that the chair with Ralph sat in it, simply slid so far on the floor, creating a gap big enough for a police officer to reach around and physically shove Ralphs body from the chair, taking the chair with him, and this was why the chair upon which he was sat, ended up at the angle shown in the following crime scene photograph...

[mike tesko]

Forget the second upright chair at the back pushed up against the internal door through which the raid team must have entered the kitchen for a moment, since that second chair could not possibly have been there when or after the raid team got into the kitchen at around 7:30 - 7:34am, otherwise how could the raid team have opened the door against which it is thus positioned as shown in this crime scene photograph, fact is, the second chair has been added into the scene at some stage after the raid team forced thier way into the kitchen, and the time PC Bird started to take his crime scene photographs in the kitchen, from 10 O'clock, onwards...

[mike tesko]

Now focus on the position of the first char, the toppled over one, and picture in your minds eye, the body of Ralph Bamber sat in it before it got toppled over, sat slumped with his arms resting on the wooden arm rests of the chair. Then propel his body forwards, so that his body falls onto the kitchen floor in keeping with the angle and position of the overturned chair - what you end up with, is Ralphs head sent crashing onto the kitchen floor in the area where all that additional blood is, which somebody has tried to conceal or control by placing a pair of cotton trousers and a towel, and seat cushions upon...

[mike tesko]

Distance from victims backside to his head, matches the distance from the seat of the chair, to the pooled blood on the kitchen floor, which is evidence that Ralph Bamber was toppled from the wooden chair as I describe, and his head sent crashing against the kitchen floor and distributing his blood there (as depicted by the two yellow coloured lines in the following image:-