Author Topic: 'Nothing really substantively new....'  (Read 17609 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline curiousessex

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1418
  • ROCH INDEX 70
'Nothing really substantively new....'
« on: April 07, 2013, 10:53:AM »
In Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano, Jeremy Bamber's then lawyer, admitted 'Nothing really substantively new' had been presented to the CCRC for Jeremy's CCRC application. As such and according to the CCRC guidelines for referral it would appear even Jeremy's lawyer at the time of submision was not surprised at the result of the initial provisional decision.

Since Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano has been charged and recently convicted on a number of counts of fraud and deception. He was sentenced to 14 years in prison.

Giovanni Di Stefano had been successful in historically masterminding the overturning of a number of high profile convictions. Primarily, the overturning of these convictions appear to have been based on identifying some failures in the following of correct due process as opposed to any uncovering or presentation of new evidence.

Since Feb 2011 the CCRC had allowed Jeremy extended time to respond to their provisional decision whilst also allowing the submission of additional content for consideration - Pig skin burn marks etc.

Given Di Stefano's historical successes in exploiting failures in due process and his Feb 2011 admission that nothing substantially new was presented to the CCRC on behalf of Jeremy then maybe time is slowly revealing the CCRC were very lenient in giving Jeremy Bamber the benefit of the doubt when considering his application to refer the case to the Court of Appeal.

Maybe there is no surprise the failure of Jeremy's CCRC submission was eventually followed by failure in the Judicial Review to overturn the CCRC decision. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 11:06:AM by curiousessex »

Offline Alias

  • Editor
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9435
  • What is in those 200 boxes?
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 10:40:PM »
Nothing substantially new, no. A man has spent the better part of his life in prison on very flimsy evidence, that is not new, he´s been at it for 28 years.
On that ground alone, the case should be reopened. The whole police misconduct, including the unlawful destruction of all physical evidence in 1996 - right around the time DNA evidence was gaining ground.
The way this case was handled was/is a sham through and through.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 01:26:AM »
In Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano, Jeremy Bamber's then lawyer, admitted 'Nothing really substantively new' had been presented to the CCRC for Jeremy's CCRC application. As such and according to the CCRC guidelines for referral it would appear even Jeremy's lawyer at the time of submision was not surprised at the result of the initial provisional decision.

Since Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano has been charged and recently convicted on a number of counts of fraud and deception. He was sentenced to 14 years in prison.

Giovanni Di Stefano had been successful in historically masterminding the overturning of a number of high profile convictions. Primarily, the overturning of these convictions appear to have been based on identifying some failures in the following of correct due process as opposed to any uncovering or presentation of new
evidence.

Since Feb 2011 the CCRC had allowed Jeremy extended time to respond to their provisional decision whilst also allowing the submission of additional content for consideration - Pig skin burn marks etc.

Given Di Stefano's historical successes in exploiting failures in due process and his Feb 2011 admission that nothing substantially new was presented to the CCRC on behalf of Jeremy then maybe time is slowly revealing the CCRC were very lenient in giving Jeremy Bamber the benefit of the doubt when considering his application to refer the case to the Court of Appeal.

Maybe there is no surprise the failure of Jeremy's CCRC submission was eventually followed by failure in the Judicial Review to overturn the CCRC decision.

Hi Curiousessex

My personal view, for what it's worth, is that Jeremy was badly let down at trial.  Geoffrey Rivlin QC chose to go down the route of the silencer being used and returned to the gun cupboard before Sheila shot herself  :(. This, in my humble opinion, was a fatal mistake.  I believe the jury should have been presented with the more likely scenario of the silencer not being used in the tragedy and having been contaminated, either innocently or deliberately.  The jury then were misled into thinking that the blood in the silencer was a "perfect match" for Sheila's.  They were unaware that the blood type/group found in the silencer matched RB's and around 10% of the population.  No audit trail exists from manufacture to FSS.  This exhibit would never get near a court today.

Also nothing was made of the freakish stats re the Bamber family ie June mental illness '59 and '82 requiring in-patient psychiatric care. And the same for Sheila '83 and '85.  If Jeremy is guilty then imo he must also have been mentally ill/personality disordered.  3/4 members of an adoptive family, ie no genetic component,  mentally ill or personality disordered?  Statistically unlikely.

As I'm sure you know once a jury return a verdict it is then very, very challenging to overturn.  However I remain optimistic that if Jeremy is innocent, as I believe him to be, then justice will eventually be served.  Society is far less deferential now than in '86.  And this along with the internet ie exchange of information, will I believe pave the way for justice. 

There is very liitle information on the internet regarding Geoffrey Rivlin.  Perhaps due to him more recently being a judge?  However, there's lots about the late Edmund Lawson who I am sure was extremely able despite  getting lost en route from Jeremy's trial to the shooting range and missing the opportunity to observe the jurors' questions, responses etc.

I'll add a link later which shows that Mr Lawson is described by his peers in glowing terms "Can turn water to wine",  analogies with rock stars, humourous, intelligent etc, etc.  I've no doubt this is true but I would prefer to see something measurable eg his success rate compared with peers.  A low % of cases referred to ccrc, CoA, miscarriage of justices.  It strikes me that QC's and judges are completely unaccountable.  A flick through one of the directories and you will see they all big one another up.  As far as I'm aware nothing exists that is measurable.

Are QC's monitored?  Heart surgeons are now measured against patient outcome?  Teachers are monitored against pupil attainment.  Investment fund managers are measured against investment returns and peer group etc, etc.

Are verdicts that are not unanimous indicative of potential miscarriages of justice?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 01:30:AM by Naughty Nun »

Offline nugnug

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17252
    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2013, 01:35:AM »
i know a lot of qcs have reputations they don't really deserve

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2013, 01:47:AM »
Interestingly I note many posters criticise the police, ccrc etc and accuse the relatives and JM of wrongdoing.  Some or all of this may be true but imo overall criticism should rest with Geoffrey Rivlin.  He had JB's get out of jail card in his pocket and chose not to play it.  He picked the wrong card. 

I would also go as far as saying his attitude was all wrong.  Shortly before the trial, like day before, he and others met with an 'eminent' psychologist.  This psychologist said Jeremy showed all the classic signs of psychopathy in that Jeremy was able to push things out his mind.  Although it is not clear if the 'eminent' psychologist ever met with Jeremy.  Even less clear whether he thought the family stats on mental illness were a liitle of the richter scale, made any reference to adoption psychology or Sheila suffering from an attachment disorder.  Geoffrey Rivlin and others then poured whiskies to cheer themselves up.  Smacks a little of defeatism.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 02:03:AM »
i know a lot of qcs have reputations they don't really deserve

Too right nugnug. 

We need something that measures outcomes along with accountability. 

I bet no data exists about which QC's/chambers have the highest referrals to ccrc, CoA, and MoJ's.

Do correlations exist between verdicts that are not unanimous and ccrc applications, referrals to CoA and MoJ's?  Surely data must be collected?


Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 02:17:AM »
http://www.clothfairchambers.com/members_profiles/edmund_lawson_qc.html

Here is the info regarding the late Mr Lawson who I am sure was a first rate QC but I would just prefer to see something a little more objective and measurable.

Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 11:05:AM »
Bearing in mind that barristers have to comply with the 'cab rank rule', how would you weight any rating system to reflect the fact that a barrister must take on any case in which he is instructed, including those with little or no chance of success?
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline curiousessex

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1418
  • ROCH INDEX 70
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2013, 11:10:AM »
Hi Curiousessex

My personal view, for what it's worth, is that Jeremy was badly let down at trial.  Geoffrey Rivlin QC chose to go down the route of the silencer being used and returned to the gun cupboard before Sheila shot herself  :(. This, in my humble opinion, was a fatal mistake.  I believe the jury should have been presented with the more likely scenario of the silencer not being used in the tragedy and having been contaminated, either innocently or deliberately.  The jury then were misled into thinking that the blood in the silencer was a "perfect match" for Sheila's.  They were unaware that the blood type/group found in the silencer matched RB's and around 10% of the population.  No audit trail exists from manufacture to FSS.  This exhibit would never get near a court today.

Also nothing was made of the freakish stats re the Bamber family ie June mental illness '59 and '82 requiring in-patient psychiatric care. And the same for Sheila '83 and '85.  If Jeremy is guilty then imo he must also have been mentally ill/personality disordered.  3/4 members of an adoptive family, ie no genetic component,  mentally ill or personality disordered?  Statistically unlikely.

As I'm sure you know once a jury return a verdict it is then very, very challenging to overturn.  However I remain optimistic that if Jeremy is innocent, as I believe him to be, then justice will eventually be served.  Society is far less deferential now than in '86.  And this along with the internet ie exchange of information, will I believe pave the way for justice. 

There is very liitle information on the internet regarding Geoffrey Rivlin.  Perhaps due to him more recently being a judge?  However, there's lots about the late Edmund Lawson who I am sure was extremely able despite  getting lost en route from Jeremy's trial to the shooting range and missing the opportunity to observe the jurors' questions, responses etc.

I'll add a link later which shows that Mr Lawson is described by his peers in glowing terms "Can turn water to wine",  analogies with rock stars, humourous, intelligent etc, etc.  I've no doubt this is true but I would prefer to see something measurable eg his success rate compared with peers.  A low % of cases referred to ccrc, CoA, miscarriage of justices.  It strikes me that QC's and judges are completely unaccountable.  A flick through one of the directories and you will see they all big one another up.  As far as I'm aware nothing exists that is measurable.

Are QC's monitored?  Heart surgeons are now measured against patient outcome?  Teachers are monitored against pupil attainment.  Investment fund managers are measured against investment returns and peer group etc, etc.

Are verdicts that are not unanimous indicative of potential miscarriages of justice?

NN

As far as I am aware Rivlin was the lawyer who Jeremy appointed in order to put Jeremy's best defence forward on behalf of Jeremy before the jury.

Jeremy was and appears to have been a willingly participant in playing the game that is our legal system.............Jeremy provided the following reply when questioned in the witness box 'That is what you have got to prove...............'

Unfortunately for Jeremy within the game being played the prosecution won before the jury and subsequently proved their case.

Hence, according to the rules of the game that is our legal system Jeremy became the loser and was subsequently found guilty as charged. Jeremy, having been found guilty, was then sentenced by the Judge who had presided over the hearing at the original trial.

So far Jeremy has failed, despite numerous attempts, to have his conviction overturned.

The game that is our legal system is still being played and Jeremy still appears to be a willing participant with various historical legal actions and CCRC submissions.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 11:13:AM by curiousessex »

Offline vidvic

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
  • R.i 99.9
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2013, 11:11:AM »
In Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano, Jeremy Bamber's then lawyer, admitted 'Nothing really substantively new' had been presented to the CCRC for Jeremy's CCRC application. As such and according to the CCRC guidelines for referral it would appear even Jeremy's lawyer at the time of submision was not surprised at the result of the initial provisional decision.

Since Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano has been charged and recently convicted on a number of counts of fraud and deception. He was sentenced to 14 years in prison.

Giovanni Di Stefano had been successful in historically masterminding the overturning of a number of high profile convictions. Primarily, the overturning of these convictions appear to have been based on identifying some failures in the following of correct due process as opposed to any uncovering or presentation of new evidence.

Since Feb 2011 the CCRC had allowed Jeremy extended time to respond to their provisional decision whilst also allowing the submission of additional content for consideration - Pig skin burn marks etc.

Given Di Stefano's historical successes in exploiting failures in due process and his Feb 2011 admission that nothing substantially new was presented to the CCRC on behalf of Jeremy then maybe time is slowly revealing the CCRC were very lenient in giving Jeremy Bamber the benefit of the doubt when considering his application to refer the case to the Court of Appeal.

Maybe there is no surprise the failure of Jeremy's CCRC submission was eventually followed by failure in the Judicial Review to overturn the CCRC decision.

What a good sense posting! Apparently he was 'genius', GDS....
rumor vagatus stulti et acceptantur a Idiotae

Lugg

  • Guest
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2013, 01:12:PM »
In Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano, Jeremy Bamber's then lawyer, admitted 'Nothing really substantively new' had been presented to the CCRC for Jeremy's CCRC application. As such and according to the CCRC guidelines for referral it would appear even Jeremy's lawyer at the time of submision was not surprised at the result of the initial provisional decision.

Since Feb 2011 Giovanni Di Stefano has been charged and recently convicted on a number of counts of fraud and deception. He was sentenced to 14 years in prison.

Giovanni Di Stefano had been successful in historically masterminding the overturning of a number of high profile convictions. Primarily, the overturning of these convictions appear to have been based on identifying some failures in the following of correct due process as opposed to any uncovering or presentation of new evidence.

Since Feb 2011 the CCRC had allowed Jeremy extended time to respond to their provisional decision whilst also allowing the submission of additional content for consideration - Pig skin burn marks etc.

Given Di Stefano's historical successes in exploiting failures in due process and his Feb 2011 admission that nothing substantially new was presented to the CCRC on behalf of Jeremy then maybe time is slowly revealing the CCRC were very lenient in giving Jeremy Bamber the benefit of the doubt when considering his application to refer the case to the Court of Appeal.

Maybe there is no surprise the failure of Jeremy's CCRC submission was eventually followed by failure in the Judicial Review to overturn the CCRC decision.
Well its a good thing JB had the good sense to see this before anyone else isn't it and sacked him.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2013, 12:02:PM »
Bearing in mind that barristers have to comply with the 'cab rank rule', how would you weight any rating system to reflect the fact that a barrister must take on any case in which he is instructed, including those with little or no chance of success?

Yes I appreciate it would need some thinking about  :-\

Still have difficulty that one man or woman can potentially get it wrong and an individual's liberty is at stake!  This then goes largely undetected unlike say a surgeon who cocks up.   For example I believe Geoffrey Rivlin's strategy re the silencer being used and returned to the gun cupboard too far fetched.  Geoffrey Rivlin was a prosecutor rather than defense counsel.  Had say George Carmen QC taken the case on (JB's first choice but didn't take on legal aid work) he may have taken a different approach eg the silencer not being used but contaminated either deliberatley or innocently and the trial outcome MAY have been different. 


Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 12:16:PM »
NN

As far as I am aware Rivlin was the lawyer who Jeremy appointed in order to put Jeremy's best defence forward on behalf of Jeremy before the jury.

Jeremy was and appears to have been a willingly participant in playing the game that is our legal system.............Jeremy provided the following reply when questioned in the witness box 'That is what you have got to prove...............'

Unfortunately for Jeremy within the game being played the prosecution won before the jury and subsequently proved their case.

Hence, according to the rules of the game that is our legal system Jeremy became the loser and was subsequently found guilty as charged. Jeremy, having been found guilty, was then sentenced by the Judge who had presided over the hearing at the original trial.

So far Jeremy has failed, despite numerous attempts, to have his conviction overturned.

The game that is our legal system is still being played and Jeremy still appears to be a willing participant with various historical legal actions and CCRC submissions.

Hi Curiousessex

Please see my previous post to Bridget. 

I agree Jeremy saying "That's what you've got to prove" or similar was a silly thing to say. 
But had I have been 24 yoa I may well have said similar had I have been innocent.  If Jeremy is innocent, as I believe him to be, then I am sure he would have been somewhat bemused by the whole trial process, putting aside the tradgedy.  Jeremy thought all you had to be was innocent to be found innocent and I would probably have thought the same.  Bearing in mind also there were far fewer well publicised MoJ's around that time too.

Wrongdoing often takes years, decades even, to eventually come to light eg Hillsborough, financial crisis, Stephen Lawrence, Jimmy Savill, IRA MoJ's, child abuse, Irish Launderies, child abuse within church etc, etc.  As Nevill said "It will all come out in the wash" and I believe this to be true with what on at WHF on 6th/7th Aug '85.

Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2013, 12:18:PM »
Yes I appreciate it would need some thinking about  :-\

Still have difficulty that one man or woman can potentially get it wrong and an individual's liberty is at stake!  This then goes largely undetected unlike say a surgeon who cocks up.   For example I believe Geoffrey Rivlin's strategy re the silencer being used and returned to the gun cupboard too far fetched.  Geoffrey Rivlin was a prosecutor rather than defense counsel.  Had say George Carmen QC taken the case on (JB's first choice but didn't take on legal aid work) he may have taken a different approach eg the silencer not being used but contaminated either deliberatley or innocently and the trial outcome MAY have been different.

Don't forget that whatever strategy Rivlin used, he was using it on JBs instruction. I'm not sure what the likely consequences would be for the defence had they have alleged deliberate contamination without evidence to support the allegation, maybe one of the lawyers here could comment. As for accidental contamination, I'm struggling to think of a credible explanation for how it would have happened.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline petey

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1309
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2013, 12:41:AM »
Don't forget that whatever strategy Rivlin used, he was using it on JBs instruction. I'm not sure what the likely consequences would be for the defence had they have alleged deliberate contamination without evidence to support the allegation, maybe one of the lawyers here could comment. As for accidental contamination, I'm struggling to think of a credible explanation for how it would have happened.

A very foolish move but protected by absolute priviledge in terms of libel.

Loss of credibility in the eyes of the judge and jury.