Spent bullet cases in the bedroom

[mike tesko]

To both Mike and Kaldin - Which direction do you both think blood flows from the first wound (the lower wound). I can see blood inside the lower wound and cannot beleive that this wound did not bleed. If Sheila committed suicide she must have been still been alive before the second fatal wound (the upper wound).

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Blood from lower wound ran in a totally different direction than blood from the upper entry wound, as can be seen by examination of this particular enlarged photograph, blood from the lower wound ran slightly off vertical:-

I will re-post a better picture to illustrate the direction, at which the lower non fatal wound bled...

Both wounds have blood flow in the general direction to the right hand side of Sheila's neck. There is no blood flow in the general direction of directly down the body (which would occur if one is in the upright position for a period of time (whether standing or sitting). There is no blood flow to the left hand side of Sheila's neck. So, in my opinion, this, whilst not being a direct point to point exact replication of the two independent blood flows they share similar direction. This, to me, would indicate the wounds were inflicted within a short period of one another (maybe a couple or few seconds).

How did the blood get onto her nightdress though? It would have to go uphill if she was lying down.

When blood is in contact with fabrics there is the matter of absorbtion as well as gravity. All fluids will flow in a path of least resistance. Once a path is established fluids will then flow in that directionuntil, gravity, absorption or surface tension takes over.

In the book 'Blood Relations' it is mentioned that blood had collected inbetween Sheila's resting arm and body and then was released when the body was moved. The book also provides an explanation re the nightdress shape / folds in material under the body.

But it can't go uphill surely. If she had been lying down when both shots occurred, the blood would have run to the side of her neck and onto the carpet.

There is digression.

Kaldin..... Try putting a string of absorbent fabric into a half full glass of water and have one end of the string of fabric over the lip of the glass........over time water will drip outside the glass.

The point I was trying to establish is given the general directional flow of blood from the wounds, it would indicate to me, that both of the wounds occured within a short period of time (a few seconds rather than minutes) whether it be a suicide or a murder.

.......

How do you account for the blood which ran almost vertically from the lower wound, which has features to indicate that it had dried a long time beforehand?

[curiousessex]

Re differentilal in initial flow of blood from the non fatal wound........The non fatal wound occurs before the fatal wound.

[Kaldin]

One of the firearms officers described seeing Sheila's head as leaning up against the bedside cabinet?

But if her head was leaning up against the bedside cabinet she could not have been shot under the chin, because of the path and trajectory taken by the fatal bullet, and the need or requirement to position the rifle, with or without a silencer into a position so as to inflict that fatal wound under the chin - whilst her head was lent against the bedside cabinet...

Impossible scenario in my opinion...

She could have been sitting up when she got both shots of course. Her head might have hit the cabinet when she fall back after the second one and gone to the right.

[mike tesko]

Re differentilal in initial flow of blood from the non fatal wound........The non fatal wound occurs before the fatal wound.

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Yes, but why has blood from lower wound dried, whilst blood from upper wound appears still to be wet and fresh looking?

[curiousessex]

Besides having taken a decision to pull the trigger I cannot understand why anyone would wait a good few minutes before pulling the trigger again once someone realised they had not been successful in what they wanted to achieved. Hence, in my opion, and given the general flow of blood from the two wounds, it appears the two wounds were inflicted within a few seconds of each other. Kaldin's explanation, as detailed above, has a logic to it.

[curiousessex]

Re differentilal in initial flow of blood from the non fatal wound........The non fatal wound occurs before the fatal wound.

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Yes, but why has blood from lower wound dried, whilst blood from upper wound appears still to be wet and fresh looking?

In my opinion, I do not think it can be categoricaally stated blood from the lower wound has dried or is wet. As for blood appearing to be wet in both flows this could be for a number of factors, light reflection from flash photography (there is light reflection from Sheila's necklace). Besides the edges of a blood flow where there is less blood would naturally dry first.

[Kaldin]

Those smudge marks on the upper fatal wound are odd though. Any ideas about those?

[mike tesko]

Besides having taken a decision to pull the trigger I cannot understand why anyone would wait a good few minutes before pulling the trigger again once someone realised they had not been successful in what they wanted to achieved. Hence, in my opion, and given the general flow of blood from the two wounds, it appears the two wounds were inflicted within a few seconds of each other. Kaldin's explanation, as detailed above, has a logic to it.

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But it does not go any way towards explaining the flow of blood in the opposite direction from the lower wound, which has dried before the blood from the upper wound exits the upper wound. You cannot simply ignore that other flow of dried blood, which came from the lower wound - and which ran in a totally different direction...

in my opinion...

Additionally, you do not appear to take into account for the fact that the bloodied finger-marks around the upper entry wound, have been displaced, and form around the lower entry wound, which can be seen if you look closely enough, and which confirms that the head of the victims was lent forward so that the upper part of the neck / throat, was resting against or upon the lower part of the same?

In addition to these features, there is the large bloodstain on the back of Sheila's nightdress, which was not replicated on the bedroom carpet beneath where her body was photographed by DC Bird (SOC) from 10 am, onward...

[curiousessex]

Besides having taken a decision to pull the trigger I cannot understand why anyone would wait a good few minutes before pulling the trigger again once someone realised they had not been successful in what they wanted to achieved. Hence, in my opion, and given the general flow of blood from the two wounds, it appears the two wounds were inflicted within a few seconds of each other. Kaldin's explanation, as detailed above, has a logic to it.

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But it does not go any way towards explaining the flow of blood in the opposite direction from the lower wound, which has dried before the blood from the upper wound exits the upper wound. You cannot simply ignore that other flow of dried blood, which came from the lower wound - and which ran in a totally different direction...

in my opinion...

Additionally, you do not appear to take into account for the fact that the bloodied finger-marks around the upper entry wound, have been displaced, and form around the lower entry wound, which can be seen if you look closely enough, and which confirms that the head of the victims was lent forward so that the upper part of the neck / throat, was resting against or upon the lower part of the same?

In addition to these features, there is the large bloodstain on the back of Sheila's nightdress, which was not replicated on the bedroom carpet beneath where her body was photographed by DC Bird (SOC) from 10 am, onward...

Mike, Can you put arrows on the pictures of blood flow to indicate the 'other direction' flow of blood from the non fatal wound to help me try and see what is being stated.

[curiousessex]

Besides having taken a decision to pull the trigger I cannot understand why anyone would wait a good few minutes before pulling the trigger again once someone realised they had not been successful in what they wanted to achieved. Hence, in my opion, and given the general flow of blood from the two wounds, it appears the two wounds were inflicted within a few seconds of each other. Kaldin's explanation, as detailed above, has a logic to it.

--------------------------------

But it does not go any way towards explaining the flow of blood in the opposite direction from the lower wound, which has dried before the blood from the upper wound exits the upper wound. You cannot simply ignore that other flow of dried blood, which came from the lower wound - and which ran in a totally different direction...

in my opinion...

Additionally, you do not appear to take into account for the fact that the bloodied finger-marks around the upper entry wound, have been displaced, and form around the lower entry wound, which can be seen if you look closely enough, and which confirms that the head of the victims was lent forward so that the upper part of the neck / throat, was resting against or upon the lower part of the same?

In addition to these features, there is the large bloodstain on the back of Sheila's nightdress, which was not replicated on the bedroom carpet beneath where her body was photographed by DC Bird (SOC) from 10 am, onward...

Re the finger marks I could relate to someone pulling  atrigger then realising they had not been succesful and then touching there neck with there fingers, looking at there fingers to see if there was any blood and then wiping them on there clothes before pulling the trigger. This of course is all speculation.

The point I was trying to establish was the time delay between the two wounds given what is known from the photographs....... ie the blood flow that can be seen. In my opinion this would be a few seconds which would be consistant with someone having taken a decision to pull the trigger if they intended on commiting suicide.

[Kaldin]

Re the finger marks I could relate to someone pulling  atrigger then realising they had not been succesful and then touching there neck with there fingers, looking at there fingers to see if there was any blood and then wiping them on there clothes before pulling the trigger. This of course is all speculation.

The point I was trying to establish was the time delay between the two wounds given what is known from the photographs....... ie the blood flow that can be seen. In my opinion this would be a few seconds which would be consistant with someone having taken a decision to pull the trigger if they intended on commiting suicide.

The smudge marks are on the upper wound - the one which was immediately fatal.

[mike tesko]

Besides having taken a decision to pull the trigger I cannot understand why anyone would wait a good few minutes before pulling the trigger again once someone realised they had not been successful in what they wanted to achieved. Hence, in my opion, and given the general flow of blood from the two wounds, it appears the two wounds were inflicted within a few seconds of each other. Kaldin's explanation, as detailed above, has a logic to it.

--------------------------------

But it does not go any way towards explaining the flow of blood in the opposite direction from the lower wound, which has dried before the blood from the upper wound exits the upper wound. You cannot simply ignore that other flow of dried blood, which came from the lower wound - and which ran in a totally different direction...

in my opinion...

Additionally, you do not appear to take into account for the fact that the bloodied finger-marks around the upper entry wound, have been displaced, and form around the lower entry wound, which can be seen if you look closely enough, and which confirms that the head of the victims was lent forward so that the upper part of the neck / throat, was resting against or upon the lower part of the same?

In addition to these features, there is the large bloodstain on the back of Sheila's nightdress, which was not replicated on the bedroom carpet beneath where her body was photographed by DC Bird (SOC) from 10 am, onward...

Mike, Can you put arrows on the pictures of blood flow to indicate the 'other direction' flow of blood from the non fatal wound to help me try and see what is being stated.

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Here is edited photograph showing direction of blood flow, from lower, and upper, entry wounds - and large bloodstain on the back of Sheila's nightdress which was not replicated on carpet beneath where her body was photographed...

[mike tesko]

Re the finger marks I could relate to someone pulling  atrigger then realising they had not been succesful and then touching there neck with there fingers, looking at there fingers to see if there was any blood and then wiping them on there clothes before pulling the trigger. This of course is all speculation.

The point I was trying to establish was the time delay between the two wounds given what is known from the photographs....... ie the blood flow that can be seen. In my opinion this would be a few seconds which would be consistant with someone having taken a decision to pull the trigger if they intended on commiting suicide.

The smudge marks are on the upper wound - the one which was immediately fatal.

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Yes, you have then got fresh blood running and leaking over the top of these marks, which suggests that someone put their fingers there in that general area with a view of trying to prevent the wound from leaking blood - this could have been done at the time the body was moved from the bed to the carpet...

[Kaldin]

How do you know it was not on the carpet? She appeared to be lying on some kind of rug by the way.

I wonder how the blood on the bottom of the nightdress got there.

[Kaldin]

Re the finger marks I could relate to someone pulling  atrigger then realising they had not been succesful and then touching there neck with there fingers, looking at there fingers to see if there was any blood and then wiping them on there clothes before pulling the trigger. This of course is all speculation.

The point I was trying to establish was the time delay between the two wounds given what is known from the photographs....... ie the blood flow that can be seen. In my opinion this would be a few seconds which would be consistant with someone having taken a decision to pull the trigger if they intended on commiting suicide.

The smudge marks are on the upper wound - the one which was immediately fatal.

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Yes, you have then got fresh blood running and leaking over the top of these marks, which suggests that someone put their fingers there in that general area with a view of trying to prevent the wound from leaking blood - this could have been done at the time the body was moved from the bed to the carpet...

I agree that something smudged the blood and then more ran over the top of it. McDonnell suggested that Sheila's hand fell upon the wound when she was shot and that's what smudged it. If not, then it could have been someone else who did that, but the reason is not clear.