They denied seeing a figure at bedroom window, but forget about female body...

[Steve_uk]

Rubbish!! It's quite evident that JB's life had no future plans for Julie and she knew it. He was making arrangements to see other women  and made no secret of it! He told Liz Rimmington (who also slept with him) that all plans to marry Julie were off after the death of his family and I'm sure she broke her neck to tell Julie. And Brett's engagement announcement that ended up in embarrassment for Julie; were all shouts through a loud hailer that the relationship was doomed.

She must have been seething!! So, when she found out that Liz Rimmington had slept with him it was the last straw and what better way to get back at him than to implicate him in the deaths of his family!!

Julie was close to ending it on the trip to Pevensey,but Jeremy begged her to stay on at Goldhanger. Maybe Jeremy had feelings for her after all,but you're right that his real sexual excitement was going to come from Anji Greaves at the Maida Vale flat,which he had inherited as a direct result of Sheila and the twins' death.

Jeremy was a complex person who took different things from different people. With Suzette Ford it was "let's make babies",yet when the babies didn't come he started to be envious of Sheila and what she had. With Brett Collins it was a warmth that somebody cared about him and hugged him which he had so missed from his adoptive mother. Julie fussed around him and made him feel special,which was an approach which worked after the sombre years of lights out in an all male dormitory at Gresham's.

[Steve_uk]

What could members of the raid team say, to fool yhe occipants of CA07 into thinking that two bodies hsd been found ipon entry, and that one of those two bodies was a dead male, and the other a dead female? What could possibly have been said by members of the raid team to convince the occupants of CA07, and the control staff, that police were dealing with a murder, and a suicide. Police eould be hard pushed to describe Ralph Bambers death as a suicide, by anybodies standards, let slone speak in the terms that his death was a murder, and a suicide...

The problem with all this,of course,is that the official verdict from the Raid Team's boss DCI Taff Jones was four murders and a suicide,so why couldn't and didn't they just go along with this scenario..

[guest7363]

Ralph, hello. I thought how excellent was your very lengthy piece on your courtroom view of proceedings. Jeremy also talks about how private a man was his father, who didn't like involvement with "outside agencies", didn't like the NHS to the point that he paid for his mentally ill daughter to be treated in a clinic hundreds of miles from her home, when she possibly may have fared better under the NHS. I imagine that Jeremy had been part of a family who dealt with immediate problems, either "in house" or stretching a point, locally.

Ok i accept that April but this was his father sounding distressed and telling him to come over at once. 3.48 and he still was on his way? It was jeremy who involved the outside agencies and found time to phone and involve julie?

[lookout]

The problem with all this,of course,is that the official verdict from the Raid Team's boss DCI Taff Jones was four murders and a suicide,so why couldn't and didn't they just go along with this scenario..

They would have done if the chap hadn't died,Steve.

[Jane]

Ok i accept that April but this was his father sounding distressed and telling him to come over at once. 3.48 and he still was on his way? It was jeremy who involved the outside agencies and found time to phone and involve julie?

Ralph. I think the "in house" and local was about maintaining control of a situation, as in, if a situation can be contained, it can be handled. There's nothing sinister about it, any more than decorating a room yourself to make certain it's exactly how you want it. I think Jeremy was following what he believed were his father's dictates. He may have travelled to the other side of the world but I think the emotional hold Nevill had on him was not one whih was easily broken.

As for Jeremy phoning Julie. Who else was there? Anthony Pargeter implied Jeremy's guilt to the police within 48 hours of the murders. It seem to me that if the family was that willing to implicate him, their dislike of him was so long standing that he must have been aware of it.

[lookout]

I find it suspicious that so many were quick to blame Jeremy.

[guest7363]

Bews, Myall and Jeremy, all saw someone who was alive inside the main bedroom, which caused Bews to return to the patrol car parked up in Pages lane, where he passed a situation report about what he had just seen, requesting that the firearms be deployed to the scene, which is what occurred. The fireams team did not just turn out to investigate a trick of light, they attended because what Bews told the control room, warranted dealing with...

It doesn't matter who said what to whom on the telephone, what matters most is that at the time police told Jeremy that all his family had been killed, he automatically presumed police had shot them when they forced thier way into the farmhouse.He had evrry reason to believe that until police actually went into the premises, that everyone was still very much alive. He had been talking to his father on the phone and knew he was alive, and because his father had not said anyone had been shot, why on earth should he think everybody else must be dead? Futhermore,  tge behaviour of the police at the scene conditioned his mind to thonl that spmeone was alive inside the premises, becaise the police were negotiating with them by various means, and Jeremy must have thought that whatever was being spoken about was what was preventing the police from going into the premises...

What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”. When Bamber was finally charged with the murders, why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.

[Steve_uk]

Ralph. I think the "in house" and local was about maintaining control of a situation, as in, if a situation can be contained, it can be handled. There's nothing sinister about it, any more than decorating a room yourself to make certain it's exactly how you want it. I think Jeremy was following what he believed were his father's dictates. He may have travelled to the other side of the world but I think the emotional hold Nevill had on him was not one whih was easily broken.

As for Jeremy phoning Julie. Who else was there? Anthony Pargeter implied Jeremy's guilt to the police within 48 hours of the murders. It seem to me that if the family was that willing to implicate him, their dislike of him was so long standing that he must have been aware of it.

You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.

The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.

Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.

[lookout]

What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”. When Bamber was finally charged with the murders, why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.

Hi Ralph.
Unfortunately Jeremy was neither street-wise or prepared in any way for what was to happen. Any other guy would really have kicked up a fuss,ranting and raving,etc,,,but because Jeremy wasn't brought up like that he'd have been tootling along in his " gentlemanly " way.
If he'd have known what was going to befall him,he may have opened up a bit more,,but because of his respect for the law,,he'd have probably felt as though he was giving them lip.
This was alien to him,because of his sheltered life,,,and it's alright for people to say that they'd have done this that and the other,,,but for him to speak up to,or against the police he'd have probably felt uncomfortable,besides the fact he may have thought it would be worse for him if he dared to " backchat " them. People act differently when they're from different environments.

It's only as the years have gone by that he's plucked up the courage to have a voice. I doubt if he even heard a swear word in the family. If only he'd have had the nouse to have argued the toss with the law.
He was too timid and an easy target,,,and I don't like that.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Ralph.
Unfortunately Jeremy was neither street-wise or prepared in any way for what was to happen. Any other guy would really have kicked up a fuss,ranting and raving,etc,,,but because Jeremy wasn't brought up like that he'd have been tootling along in his " gentlemanly " way.
If he'd have known what was going to befall him,he may have opened up a bit more,,but because of his respect for the law,,he'd have probably felt as though he was giving them lip.
This was alien to him,because of his sheltered life,,,and it's alright for people to say that they'd have done this that and the other,,,but for him to speak up to,or against the police he'd have probably felt uncomfortable,besides the fact he may have thought it would be worse for him if he dared to " backchat " them. People act differently when they're from different environments.

It's only as the years have gone by that he's plucked up the courage to have a voice. I doubt if he even heard a swear word in the family. If only he'd have had the nouse to have argued the toss with the law.
He was too timid and an easy target,,,and I don't like that.

..or he was a lazy good-for-nothing,institutionalized in Gresham's and who now continues to be institutionalized in a different location, who only in the last year of his life settled down to regular labour and who in his own words to Police may have been suffering from manic depression.

[lookout]

..or he was a lazy good-for-nothing,institutionalized in Gresham's and who now continues to be institutionalized in a different location, who only in the last year of his life settled down to regular labour and who in his own words to Police may have been suffering from manic depression.

Not at all,Steve. He wasn't/isn't a manic depressive either. Where does it state that.?

[Steve_uk]

Not at all,Steve. He wasn't/isn't a manic depressive either. Where does it state that.?

It's in his testimony to DS Jones on 10 September 1985.

[lookout]

It's in his testimony to DS Jones on 10 September 1985.

It still doesn't make him a murderer though. There are hundreds of manic depressives,,diagnosed and undiagnosed.

[guest7363]

It's funny how we all think of Jeremy lookout, I think he was someone who was very streetwise travelled a lot even after the murders, no respect for the law having stolen and dealing in drugs. Here was a good chance for him and his defence the one defining piece of evidence, look how could it possibly be me when you were talking to someone who was alive in whf when I am outside with you. He never used it because it never happened.

[lookout]

It's funny how we all think of Jeremy lookout, I think he was someone who was very streetwise travelled a lot even after the murders, no respect for the law having stolen and dealing in drugs. Here was a good chance for him and his defence the one defining piece of evidence, look how could it possibly be me when you were talking to someone who was alive in whf when I am outside with you. He never used it because it never happened.

Ralph,,,I can appreciate your way of thinking,,but I tend to put myself in his shoes as I'd have kicked up a stink and certainly wouldn't have been calm. My language would have been choice,,and I'd have continued in the same vain while being locked up. There's no right or wrong way of pleading innocence,,it rests upon the type of person you are to start with,and people act differently.
I'd have just been hopping mad. Even inside,,I'd be leading a merry dance,,,but my own actions would not last the same as Jeremys' have,and continue to do so,as he's calm and collected,,,so therefore,, comparing two sets of behaviour it would  be me who'd appear to be the guilty one more so than someone who takes it in their stride.
He has focussed on his writing to pass the time,,,and to also,I'm sure,,try and make head and tail of the case.
I still don't think he expected what he got though. His past thieving wasn't done alone and was instigated by others. That didn't bode well at the trial,,but I didn't see anyone else taking the wrap either,,nor did Jeremy name names. He was a patsy in the making,,soft lad that he was.
The man has no anger or bitterness in him at all. He's fit and healthy. Look at the way other lifers have gone who are/were guilty.
There's something keeping Jeremy going,,and that's his thought of freedom from a terrible mistake that's been made.