If Sheila Did It

[mb1]

The barking dog could be heard on the open line - it was discovered upstairs, under the main bed.
I'm assuming whoever was listening in - BT alone or accompanied by officers sent to the exchange? - was really listening.
The phone was feet away from the bucket with soaking underwear. Wouldn't they have heard that being carried and placed on the floor?

Dr Pal - by washing, do you mean SC showering and dressing, laundering her blood-spattered clothes and gloves, or both?

Dog was found in a cupboard in the main bedroom,and it was removed quickly  so as to not disturb the scene.

Read elsewhere - possibly this forum - that it was under the bed.

Cupboard 'says' something different to me.

Also occurs to me - why not shoot the dog?

[Paul]

Where does Bamber say she was unconscious in the kitchen ?

On his own website http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/defence-case

"I put it that Sheila had shot herself once and was unconscious in the kitchen when the firearms officers broke into the kitchen. They somehow missed the fact that she was still alive and continued to search the house."

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Possible i suppose but if Neville phoned Jeremy sometime around  3.30am (ish) and said sheila had a gun (no mention that she had shot anyone at this point ) and then police arrived before 4am i dont see she would have time to shoot her whole family, clean up the guns and then wash and change. Yeh the police didnt enter the house till 7am but if my hiuse was surrounded by armed police i wouldnt bother having a wash iz be watching exactly what was going off and not getti g distracted for even a second.

The police didn't enter the house until 7.35am. That gives Sheila 4 hours to finish the murders, wash, change and then kill herself.

There was an open phone line being monitured and no sounds were heard.
They would have head two shotds dont you think.

There was an open phone line being monitored and no sounds were heard.
They would have head two shots don't you think as well.

We've established that shot with the silencer are incredibly quiet, without, would be unlikely to be heard if the shots where upstairs and the phone in the kitchen.

It was impossible to shoot herself with the silencer on and they would have heard her rushing around the house on the phone with all the washing going on i think.

It was not impossible to shoot herself with the silencer on - just as technical point there.
The police undertook, and photographed a series of shots demonstrating that it was possible... they are available on the forum.
I don't believe the silencer was used... but just saying.. it WAS possible if a little awkward

[chelmsey]

The barking dog could be heard on the open line - it was discovered upstairs, under the main bed.
I'm assuming whoever was listening in - BT alone or accompanied by officers sent to the exchange? - was really listening.
The phone was feet away from the bucket with soaking underwear. Wouldn't they have heard that being carried and placed on the floor?

Dr Pal - by washing, do you mean SC showering and dressing, laundering her blood-spattered clothes and gloves, or both?

Dog was found in a cupboard in the main bedroom,and it was removed quickly  so as to not disturb the scene.

Read elsewhere - possibly this forum - that it was under the bed.

Cupboard 'says' something different to me.

Also occurs to me - why not shoot the dog?

If you go to the thread titled "trial evidence of PC Myall and DI Cook,......DI Cook testifies that the dog was found in a bedroom cupboard,

[Paul]

Are you sure the police "undertook, and photographed a series of shots demonstrating that it was possible"?

Seems a strange thing for the police to be doing in 2003.

[Dr Pal]

Sheila was also wearing a petticoat which became heavily bloodstained, according to Mike Tesko. There is a thread on this forum with a link to a photograph of this petticoat but unfortunately the link no longer works. I have asked Mike at least three times if he could repost the photograph but I have had no response.

Aside from that, I would like to submit a further theory from a women's point of view lol. Maybe Sheila was fully clothed whilst committing the four murders but then washed and changed into her nightdress before committing suicide. I have read that sufferers of paranoid schizophrenia do undertake such ritualistic behaviour. This could also account for the lack of forensic evidence found upon her body.

She must have manicured all her nails too and done all this to frame Bamber..All this is nonsense I'm afraid.
Remember Bamber says she was unconscious in the Kitchen, so all this she must have done behind the backs of a house full of Police and not one of them Knowing or hearing anything.

Where does Bamber say she was unconscious in the kitchen ?

he says one male and one dead woman were in the kichen when the Police broke in and then she made her way upstaires without them knowing.

[mb1]

From the TFG description of entry, it appears they were employing a clear/secure.forward tactic. They opened windows to create exits for officers should they need to retreat.

If SC was alive in the kitchen her only opportunity to move unseen would have been when the TFG began moving upstairs. If she used the kitchen stairs, they would have seen her on the landing. Put frankly, they would have shot her and it wouldn't have been an uppercut to the chin.
Why would they lie if this occurred?
TFUs/TFGs kill people waving chair legs and toy guns without feeling the need to lie.
Why hide the fact that they had shot a woman who had just slaughtered her children and parents?

If Sheila managed to evade them and get to the bedroom, the TFG would have returned to siege mode whether or not they heard a shot. Once again, WHF would have been a no-go area for some considerable time.
Again, why would they lie if this occurred?

Simply cannot see any strand of logic in this line of reasoning.
 

[mb1]

Possible i suppose but if Neville phoned Jeremy sometime around  3.30am (ish) and said sheila had a gun (no mention that she had shot anyone at this point ) and then police arrived before 4am i dont see she would have time to shoot her whole family, clean up the guns and then wash and change. Yeh the police didnt enter the house till 7am but if my hiuse was surrounded by armed police i wouldnt bother having a wash iz be watching exactly what was going off and not getti g distracted for even a second.

The police didn't enter the house until 7.35am. That gives Sheila 4 hours to finish the murders, wash, change and then kill herself.

There was an open phone line being monitured and no sounds were heard.
They would have head two shotds dont you think.

There was an open phone line being monitored and no sounds were heard.
They would have head two shots don't you think as well.

We've established that shot with the silencer are incredibly quiet, without, would be unlikely to be heard if the shots where upstairs and the phone in the kitchen.

It was impossible to shoot herself with the silencer on and they would have heard her rushing around the house on the phone with all the washing going on i think.

It was not impossible to shoot herself with the silencer on - just as technical point there.
The police undertook, and photographed a series of shots demonstrating that it was possible... they are available on the forum.
I don't believe the silencer was used... but just saying.. it WAS possible if a little awkward

The photographs on this site are from defence sources.

They do not state the height or arm reach of the model used, or depict measurements of these.

Mike Tesko will recall if it is exactly the same Anschutz gun (longer than most .22s) and moderator.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

The photographs were taken at Birdwell Armoury in 2003 using a duplicate rifle / silencer and model of similar proportion to Sheila.

But I must correct my earlier statement - the instigator of these photos isn't known (to me) and therefore likely NOT to have been the police themselves.

[Dr Pal]

The photographs were taken at Birdwell Armoury in 2003 using a duplicate rifle / silencer and model of similar proportion to Sheila.

But I must correct my earlier statement - the instigator of these photos isn't known (to me) and therefore likely NOT to have been the police themselves.

to be honest...if she did shoot herself, after the first shot i don't think she would have had the strength to do a second one!

[Dr Pal]

From the TFG description of entry, it appears they were employing a clear/secure.forward tactic. They opened windows to create exits for officers should they need to retreat.

If SC was alive in the kitchen her only opportunity to move unseen would have been when the TFG began moving upstairs. If she used the kitchen stairs, they would have seen her on the landing. Put frankly, they would have shot her and it wouldn't have been an uppercut to the chin.
Why would they lie if this occurred?
TFUs/TFGs kill people waving chair legs and toy guns without feeling the need to lie.
Why hide the fact that they had shot a woman who had just slaughtered her children and parents?

If Sheila managed to evade them and get to the bedroom, the TFG would have returned to siege mode whether or not they heard a shot. Once again, WHF would have been a no-go area for some considerable time.
Again, why would they lie if this occurred?

Simply cannot see any strand of logic in this line of reasoning.

The problem Bamber has now....  he has come up with that many different stories to say what happened with every little new evidence, he has now lost any little credibility he had.
He has attacked everybody saying they are lying from the farm hands, police and prosecution etc that I'm sure that nothing new released would ever change matters for him now, as why would they if it was only going to drop them in it.
He's tried to dig himself out of a massive hole since day one with his arrogance and all the legal experts who matter in this case can see it.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Possible i suppose but if Neville phoned Jeremy sometime around  3.30am (ish) and said sheila had a gun (no mention that she had shot anyone at this point ) and then police arrived before 4am i dont see she would have time to shoot her whole family, clean up the guns and then wash and change. Yeh the police didnt enter the house till 7am but if my hiuse was surrounded by armed police i wouldnt bother having a wash iz be watching exactly what was going off and not getti g distracted for even a second.

The police didn't enter the house until 7.35am. That gives Sheila 4 hours to finish the murders, wash, change and then kill herself.

There was an open phone line being monitured and no sounds were heard.
They would have head two shotds dont you think.

There was an open phone line being monitored and no sounds were heard.
They would have head two shots don't you think as well.

We've established that shot with the silencer are incredibly quiet, without, would be unlikely to be heard if the shots where upstairs and the phone in the kitchen.

It was impossible to shoot herself with the silencer on and they would have heard her rushing around the house on the phone with all the washing going on i think.

It was not impossible to shoot herself with the silencer on - just as technical point there.
The police undertook, and photographed a series of shots demonstrating that it was possible... they are available on the forum.
I don't believe the silencer was used... but just saying.. it WAS possible if a little awkward

The photographs on this site are from defence sources.

They do not state the height or arm reach of the model used, or depict measurements of these.

Mike Tesko will recall if it is exactly the same Anschutz gun (longer than most .22s) and moderator.

The problem Bamber has now,  is that he has come up with that many different stories to say what happened with every little new evidence, he has now lost any little credibility he had.
He has attacked everybody saying they are lying from the farm hands, police and prosecution etc that I'm sure that nothing new released would ever change matters for him now, as why would they if it was only going to drop them in it.
He's tried to dig himself out of a massive hole since day one with his arrogance and all the legal experts who matter in this case can see it.

Well, I'm more reasonably heavily on the guilty side but.....
In his defence:

1) Not all the claims are his - see Mike Tesko about that!!
2) IF you've been stitched up, then to be fair, the evidence to prove your innocence isn't going to be particularly forthcoming, and so you would clutch at every possible straw you could.
3) IF he didn't do it, then he's no wiser than us lot (well not much) - so HE has to work out how sheila did it too!... no mean feat. Can't blame him if he goes down a number of paths.... I've done that too!

On the prosecution side:

1) He was arrogant then, and thought he could get away with it, and he still is, and will try anything to get out of it.
2) His attempts at discrediting virtually everyone but himself go from the sublime to the ridiculous
3) He's been repeatedly 'proven' wrong - and why should the British justice system continuously pander to his follow and self promotion?

[jon]

From the TFG description of entry, it appears they were employing a clear/secure.forward tactic. They opened windows to create exits for officers should they need to retreat.

If SC was alive in the kitchen her only opportunity to move unseen would have been when the TFG began moving upstairs. If she used the kitchen stairs, they would have seen her on the landing. Put frankly, they would have shot her and it wouldn't have been an uppercut to the chin.
Why would they lie if this occurred?
TFUs/TFGs kill people waving chair legs and toy guns without feeling the need to lie.
Why hide the fact that they had shot a woman who had just slaughtered her children and parents?

If Sheila managed to evade them and get to the bedroom, the TFG would have returned to siege mode whether or not they heard a shot. Once again, WHF would have been a no-go area for some considerable time.
Again, why would they lie if this occurred?

Simply cannot see any strand of logic in this line of reasoning.

The problem Bamber has now....  he has come up with that many different stories to say what happened with every little new evidence, he has now lost any little credibility he had.
He has attacked everybody saying they are lying from the farm hands, police and prosecution etc that I'm sure that nothing new released would ever change matters for him now, as why would they if it was only going to drop them in it.
He's tried to dig himself out of a massive hole since day one with his arrogance and all the legal experts who matter in this case can see it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-officers-charged-over-cardiff-three-miscarriage-of-justice-1636833.html Sometimes it takes a long time !!

[Reader]

The photograph doesn't show that Amy could reach the rifle's trigger, as her raised leg blocks the view. However, mike tesko has claimed that the video that was also made gives a clearer view.

If SC was alive in the kitchen her only opportunity to move unseen would have been when the TFG began moving upstairs. If she used the kitchen stairs, they would have seen her on the landing. Put frankly, they would have shot her and it wouldn't have been an uppercut to the chin.
Why would they lie if this occurred?

As you say, Sheila had an opportunity to go upstairs before the TFG got there. The defence theory is that the police decided to conceal their own blunders, so any lying would have occurred some time later, on orders from their superiors.

if she did shoot herself, after the first shot i don't think she would have had the strength to do a second one!

You don't know how much loss of blood the first wound caused, or how much pain it caused. Whether she felt too faint to shoot herself again is therefore completely unknowable on that basis.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Sheila did well to get past the Armed Response Team though...

These guys would be listening for every noise they could... since nobody fancies being shot at... and of course, she's not on top form... having just aroused (from shooting herself) and carrying a weapon of that size.

No wonder her feet were clean, she was exceptionally light on them.