Author Topic: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...  (Read 39748 times)

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Offline susan

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #240 on: October 27, 2013, 05:23:PM »
tyler good observation and I am inclined to agree with you.  Susanxx

Offline Patti

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #241 on: October 27, 2013, 05:23:PM »
I think it the mark looks to wide to have been caused by a silencer? Possibly an abrasion ring due to the wound having been contact or near contact? If any expert believed this to have been a silencer mark,surely this would have been raised in court? Instead,none of them could assertain whether a silencer had been used or not in the murders,hence the prosecutions reliance on the blood from inside the silencer.

That's just what I said Tyler  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline mike tesko

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #242 on: October 27, 2013, 05:26:PM »
Hi Mike :)

Are you saying that the mark around the wound to Sheila was made with the silencer fitted? If so then are you saying that Jeremy is guilty?   :) :) :) :)

I am saying that after a lengthy investigation conducted on Jeremy's behalf, at the back end of 2003, and the beginning of 2004, tests / experiments were carried out at Birdwell armory, Barnsley, to try and establish if with the end of a silencer in contact with the surface of the skin, it would leave a distinctive mark there? Tests carried out at that stage confirmed that direct contact between the end of a sound moderator and the skin produced such a mark. Once this was confirmed, a check was made of all photographs showing the two bullet entry wounds upon Sheila Caffells throat, and it was noted that a circular mark existed around the lower non fatal wound, but was absent from around the upper wound, close by...

Discovery of this circular mark around the lower bullet entry wound, was inconsistent with the prosecutions ballistic expert's conclusions, which stated that the lower entry wound had been non contact in nature, whilst the upper wound was contact in nature. Between Mssrs, Smith, Mallinson and myself, we came to the conclusion that based on a presence or absence of such a circular mark around both of these two entry wounds, that the lower of the two wounds must have been contact in nature, whilst the upper wound had to have been non contact in nature (the opposite way round to the view expressed by Fletcher)...

We discovered that for some reason, the original bullet (PV/20) associated with the lower bullet entry wound, which had been removed during autopsy by the pathologist, Peter Venezis, on 7th August 1985, which had been badly fragmented, had by the 20th September 1985, mysteriously become transformed into a whole bullet, which  Fletcher was able to associate to the semi-automatic anshulz rifle. It therefore became apparent that the police were guilty of tampering with the evidence as far as that lower wound to the victims neck is concerned, since, there was a distinctive circular mark upon the neck which had very similar characteristics to the end of a sound moderator, and how could a badly fragmented bullet (PV/20) grow into a whole bullet, in time for the police to prosecute Jeremy for the murders?

This made us think twice about what the trial judge said to the jury, where he told the jury that in so far as them coming to the conclusion that the blood found inside the silencer belonged or originated from a mixture of the parents bloods, he told them not to concern themselves with how the bloodstained silencer with the parents blood inside, had found its way back into the cupboard, before Sheila had gone on to take her own life. Well, if the presence of a corresponding circular mark around the lower bullet entry wound site was made by a sound moderator having been in a contact position with the surface of the neck, with no such mark around the upper fatal bullet wound beneath the chin  becomes suggestive that at the time of that shot, there had been no such contact between the end of a sound moderator and the surface of the skin, it remained possible for the sound moderator to have been removed from the barrel of the gun in between both shots occurring, and on this basis in keeping with the judges directions about it not being necessary for the jury to establish how the silencer had found its way into the downstairs office cupboard, it provides a legitimate explanation for how Sheila's blood could have got into the sound moderator, before she was killed by the upper fatal shot under the chin...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 05:34:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Patti

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #243 on: October 27, 2013, 05:30:PM »
Hi Patti

See your post #178.  LCN DNA was not even envisaged '85/'86 so the necessary precautions to prevent contamination would not have been taken.

Jurors were told to wear gloves but I believe this was for their own protection rather than protection of exhibits.

Maybe there are less sensitive ways of DNA profiling than LCN which might yield results.  I believe LCN was used with silencer as the blood had been swabbed to death in '85/'86 for standard blood groupings.

Just think even if EP hadn't destroyed other exhibits defence and prosecution would have claimed contamination.

yes and different methods.... :) :) :) :)

Offline tyler

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #244 on: October 27, 2013, 05:36:PM »
That's just what I said Tyler  ;D ;D ;D ;D
sorry Patti,have only been skim reading  :-[

Offline Patti

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #245 on: October 27, 2013, 05:37:PM »
sorry Patti,have only been skim reading  :-[

Tis alright Tyler. I was in total agreement with you as I am at most of your posts.... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline killingeve

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #246 on: October 27, 2013, 05:42:PM »
yes and different methods.... :) :) :) :)

Hi Patti

From my limited research it appears DNA profiling used to solve crimes came into being in 1985  :-\ Therefore I just don't know if contamination could be ruled out to the degree that would be required to render it admissible as evidence in a court of law.  A bit ironic I know but there you go life's a bitch then you die.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 05:43:PM by Naughty Nun »

Offline Patti

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #247 on: October 27, 2013, 05:46:PM »
I am saying that after a lengthy investigation conducted on Jeremy's behalf, at the back end of 2003, and the beginning of 2004, tests / experiments were carried out at Birdwell armory, Barnsley, to try and establish if with the end of a silencer in contact with the surface of the skin, it would leave a distinctive mark there? Tests carried out at that stage confirmed that direct contact between the end of a sound moderator and the skin produced such a mark. Once this was confirmed, a check was made of all photographs showing the two bullet entry wounds upon Sheila Caffells throat, and it was noted that a circular mark existed around the lower non fatal wound, but was absent from around the upper wound, close by...

Discovery of this circular mark around the lower bullet entry wound, was inconsistent with the prosecutions ballistic expert's conclusions, which stated that the lower entry wound had been non contact in nature, whilst the upper wound was contact in nature. Between Mssrs, Smith, Mallinson and myself, we came to the conclusion that based on a presence or absence of such a circular mark around both of these two entry wounds, that the lower of the two wounds must have been contact in nature, whilst the upper wound had to have been non contact in nature (the opposite way round to the view expressed by Fletcher)...

We discovered that for some reason, the original bullet (PV/20) associated with the lower bullet entry wound, which had been removed during autopsy by the pathologist, Peter Venezis, on 7th August 1985, which had been badly fragmented, had by the 20th September 1985, mysteriously become transformed into a whole bullet, which  Fletcher was able to associate to the semi-automatic anshulz rifle. It therefore became apparent that the police were guilty of tampering with the evidence as far as that lower wound to the victims neck is concerned, since, there was a distinctive circular mark upon the neck which had very similar characteristics to the end of a sound moderator, and how could a badly fragmented bullet (PV/20) grow into a whole bullet, in time for the police to prosecute Jeremy for the murders?

This made us think twice about what the trial judge said to the jury, where he told the jury that in so far as them coming to the conclusion that the blood found inside the silencer belonged or originated from a mixture of the parents bloods, he told them not to concern themselves with how the bloodstained silencer with the parents blood inside, had found its way back into the cupboard, before Sheila had gone on to take her own life. Well, if the presence of a corresponding circular mark around the lower bullet entry wound site was made by a sound moderator having been in a contact position with the surface of the neck, with no such mark around the upper fatal bullet wound beneath the chin  becomes suggestive that at the time of that shot, there had been no such contact between the end of a sound moderator and the surface of the skin, it remained possible for the sound moderator to have been removed from the barrel of the gun in between both shots occurring, and on this basis in keeping with the judges directions about it not being necessary for the jury to establish how the silencer had found its way into the downstairs office cupboard, it provides a legitimate explanation for how Sheila's blood could have got into the sound moderator, before she was killed by the upper fatal shot under the chin...

Thank you for this Mike.  I understand about the fragmented bullet.  I just can't get my head around the first wound being made with a silencer fitted.  It does not make any sense to me at all.  If Nevill's burn marks on his back and marks on his arm were done without the silencer,, then what you are saying is that after NB died Sheila put the silencer back on, then took it off again....Maybe I need to digest what you are saying  ;) ;) ;) ;)

Offline tyler

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #248 on: October 27, 2013, 05:47:PM »
I am saying that after a lengthy investigation conducted on Jeremy's behalf, at the back end of 2003, and the beginning of 2004, tests / experiments were carried out at Birdwell armory, Barnsley, to try and establish if with the end of a silencer in contact with the surface of the skin, it would leave a distinctive mark there? Tests carried out at that stage confirmed that direct contact between the end of a sound moderator and the skin produced such a mark. Once this was confirmed, a check was made of all photographs showing the two bullet entry wounds upon Sheila Caffells throat, and it was noted that a circular mark existed around the lower non fatal wound, but was absent from around the upper wound, close by...

Discovery of this circular mark around the lower bullet entry wound, was inconsistent with the prosecutions ballistic expert's conclusions, which stated that the lower entry wound had been non contact in nature, whilst the upper wound was contact in nature. Between Mssrs, Smith, Mallinson and myself, we came to the conclusion that based on a presence or absence of such a circular mark around both of these two entry wounds, that the lower of the two wounds must have been contact in nature, whilst the upper wound had to have been non contact in nature (the opposite way round to the view expressed by Fletcher)...

We discovered that for some reason, the original bullet (PV/20) associated with the lower bullet entry wound, which had been removed during autopsy by the pathologist, Peter Venezis, on 7th August 1985, which had been badly fragmented, had by the 20th September 1985, mysteriously become transformed into a whole bullet, which  Fletcher was able to associate to the semi-automatic anshulz rifle. It therefore became apparent that the police were guilty of tampering with the evidence as far as that lower wound to the victims neck is concerned, since, there was a distinctive circular mark upon the neck which had very similar characteristics to the end of a sound moderator, and how could a badly fragmented bullet (PV/20) grow into a whole bullet, in time for the police to prosecute Jeremy for the murders?

This made us think twice about what the trial judge said to the jury, where he told the jury that in so far as them coming to the conclusion that the blood found inside the silencer belonged or originated from a mixture of the parents bloods, he told them not to concern themselves with how the bloodstained silencer with the parents blood inside, had found its way back into the cupboard, before Sheila had gone on to take her own life. Well, if the presence of a corresponding circular mark around the lower bullet entry wound site was made by a sound moderator having been in a contact position with the surface of the neck, with no such mark around the upper fatal bullet wound beneath the chin  becomes suggestive that at the time of that shot, there had been no such contact between the end of a sound moderator and the surface of the skin, it remained possible for the sound moderator to have been removed from the barrel of the gun in between both shots occurring, and on this basis in keeping with the judges directions about it not being necessary for the jury to establish how the silencer had found its way into the downstairs office cupboard, it provides a legitimate explanation for how Sheila's blood could have got into the sound moderator, before she was killed by the upper fatal shot under the chin...
But if Sheila could indeed manage to shoot herself once with the moderator on,then why would she remove it for the second shot?

Offline susan

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #249 on: October 27, 2013, 05:51:PM »
Hi Girlies tyler/Patti great minds think alike ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Patti

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #250 on: October 27, 2013, 05:53:PM »
Hi Girlies tyler/Patti great minds think alike ;D ;D ;D ;D

I bet we're related lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline mike tesko

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #251 on: October 27, 2013, 05:55:PM »
At the beginning of 2004, Smith and myself went to Birmingham to see Ewen Smith in his office, about the markt around the lower bullet entry wound upon Sheila's neck, pointing out that it suggested in the strongest possible terms that a sound moderator had been in contact with the skin at the time the non fatal shot across the throat had been inflicted. When we spoke to Ewen Smith about this at his office in Birmingham, he said that if the mark we were referring to had been made by a sound moderator being in a contact position with the surface of Sheila's throat, then he said it was curtains for Jeremy having any chance of winning an appeal based on the silencer evidence, because that circular mark tended to show that a sound moderator had been used in her shootings...

I did not personally believe it meant what Ewen was saying, as far as I was concerned, it only tended to provide an explanation for how Sheila's blood may have got into the sound moderator, and more crucially, it provided a basis for undermining the evidence given during the trial by the prosecutions ballistic expert, who stated that there had only been one opportunity for Sheila's blood to get into the sound moderator, and that was at the time she was fatally shot beneath the chin, which caused death immediately, and that somebody else must have removed the sound moderator and hidden it away after Sheila was already dead...

This led us to look into the possibility of a delay between the infliction of both shots to Sheila's throat...

We found evidence in the form of logs, to suggest that at one stage, police had got Sheila as having been found dead, downstairs in the kitchen (7.37am / 7.38am), a request sent out from the scene at 7.42am, for the police surgeon and coroners officer to be notified regarding two bodies, followed by "Linda" in the control room contacting SOC at home asking them to come on duty because police at whf were dealing with a murder and a suicide (7.45am)...

Of course, we now know that Sheila had blood stains on the soles of her feet, consistent with her having walked around after other victims had been shot...

« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 05:56:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Alias

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #252 on: October 27, 2013, 05:58:PM »
In my opinion, if a sound moderator was used for the first shot and no sound moderator for the second, then I have to change sides to the guilty camp.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #253 on: October 27, 2013, 06:01:PM »
Thank you for this Mike.  I understand about the fragmented bullet.  I just can't get my head around the first wound being made with a silencer fitted.  It does not make any sense to me at all.  If Nevill's burn marks on his back and marks on his arm were done without the silencer,, then what you are saying is that after NB died Sheila put the silencer back on, then took it off again....Maybe I need to digest what you are saying  ;) ;) ;) ;)

Hi Patti,

We considered this matter long and hard, and came to the inevitable conclusion that the sound moderator was not removed from the barrel of the gun it was fitted to, which caused us to think about the possible use of two different guns in the shootings, one fitted with a sound moderator, and the other without one...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Patti

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Re: I have managed to retrieve some documents, from my 2004 drive...
« Reply #254 on: October 27, 2013, 06:03:PM »
In my opinion, if a sound moderator was used for the first shot and no sound moderator for the second, then I have to change sides to the guilty camp.

Me too Alias....I don't know what to believe anymore. I think I will go and lay down and think about this.  No expert has provided us with any evidence to support that a silencer was used on Sheila and the mark could have easily come from the entry and not the silencer at all..... :(