She's got the gun

[Bridget]

There are those that believe that he might have been forced to make the call (not me though  )

Me neither

[Lugg]

JM's evidence was as to what JB had told her, not what had actually happened.

We only have her word for that. Why should we believe a lie? The antis still acknowledge that there may have been a third person though, when it is suggested that Jeremy had to deal with three adults when Sheila only had to contend with two.

[Alias]

We only have her word for that. Why should we believe a lie? The antis still acknowledge that there may have been a third person though, when it is suggested that Jeremy had to deal with three adults when Sheila only had to contend with two.

In my opinion, that is a massive difference, and I have a problem placing Sheila in the house while the murders took place, where was she??? I can only see Jeremy being the killer IF he had an accomplice.

[Jane]

In my opinion, that is a massive difference, and I have a problem placing Sheila in the house while the murders took place, where was she??? I can only see Jeremy being the killer IF he had an accomplice.

Alias, I find it enormously difficult to position Sheila anywhere whilst these murders are happening. I can't imagine she would have stood and watched her parents killed and as a mother she would have fought like a tigress to protect her boys. After all that, we have been asked to believe that she was led to a bedroom and instructed to lay down. Please forgive the flippancy, but what was she told? "This won't hurt." "Can you lift your head a little?"and given the trajectory of the fatal bullet the shooter would either have needed to be a contortionist OR have had to ask that question.

[Bridget]

We only have her word for that. Why should we believe a lie? The antis still acknowledge that there may have been a third person though, when it is suggested that Jeremy had to deal with three adults when Sheila only had to contend with two.

You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.

Alias, I find it enormously difficult to position Sheila anywhere whilst these murders are happening. I can't imagine she would have stood and watched her parents killed and as a mother she would have fought like a tigress to protect her boys. After all that, we have been asked to believe that she was led to a bedroom and instructed to lay down. Please forgive the flippancy, but what was she told? "This won't hurt." "Can you lift your head a little?"and given the trajectory of the fatal bullet the shooter would either have needed to be a contortionist OR have had to ask that question.

There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something

[Alias]

You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.
There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something

There must have been a lot of noise in that house that night. Not only the shots, but screams and moaning (hard to write this), dogs barking. Why would she be awoken by the commotion downstairs, when there had been so much going on upsstairs right beside her bedroom?
Did she hear all this horror, and then partially make her bed before stepping out of her room, because that bed does not quite look like someone slept in it, rather it looks like someone had lied on top of it, but not under the covers.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this - that seems a little bold??

[Patti]

You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.
There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something

Sit where Bridget?  If she was sat on the bed then their would be traces of blood evidence on the bed.  If she was sat on the floor then it would mean that the killer must have laid down in order to have delivered the first shot, for it was an upward shot...... Are you saying that she just sat there and allowed this to happen to her without a fight?   

[Bridget]

There must have been a lot of noise in that house that night. Not only the shots, but screams and moaning (hard to write this), dogs barking. Why would she be awoken by the commotion downstairs, when there had been so much going on upsstairs right beside her bedroom?
Did she hear all this horror, and then partially make her bed before stepping out of her room, because that bed does not quite look like someone slept in it, rather it looks like someone had lied on top of it, but not under the covers.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this - that seems a little bold??

The gun had a silencer fitted and it's my belief that the boys were killed first, still in their sleep. I wouldn't think there was much in the way of noise until he reached his parents bedroom, and then I guess things happened quickly. The bed certainly looks slept in to me, if you were going to lay on top why would you pull the cover back?

[Bridget]

Sit where Bridget?  If she was sat on the bed then their would be traces of blood evidence on the bed.  If she was sat on the floor then it would mean that the killer must have laid down in order to have delivered the first shot, for it was an upward shot...... Are you saying that she just sat there and allowed this to happen to her without a fight?   

No, I'm saying she was sitting, standing, whatever, terrified because she was on the wrong end of a rifle. Whichever it was doubtless she was leaning back away from it which would make a slightly upwards trajectory not only possible but likely.

[Alias]

The gun had a silencer fitted and it's my belief that the boys were killed first, still in their sleep. I wouldn't think there was much in the way of noise until he reached his parents bedroom, and then I guess things happened quickly. The bed certainly looks slept in to me, if you were going to lay on top why would you pull the cover back?

It looks partially pulled back, true, but also partially made.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this? Rather a daunting task to enter a large house with the intent to kill two children and THREE adults!

[Bridget]

It looks partially pulled back, true, but also partially made.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this? Rather a daunting task to enter a large house with the intent to kill two children and THREE adults!

Oh I agree, but if I had to choose between the likely success of him killing two kids and three adults, or Sheila killing two kids and two adults my money would still be on him.

[Jane]

No, I'm saying she was sitting, standing, whatever, terrified because she was on the wrong end of a rifle. Whichever it was doubtless she was leaning back away from it which would make a slightly upwards trajectory not only possible but likely.

Bridget, I cannot see how she slept through that mayhem. Mothers are alert to the smallest sound their children make, not to mention built in radar to alert them to danger. I'm convinced the bible passage wasn't coincidental and even more convinced that Jeremy knew too little of the bible to find it. The more I make myself think about the utter devastation and carnage, the more convinced I am that he didn't do it. I think at some point his nerve would have failed.

[Patti]

No, I'm saying she was sitting, standing, whatever, terrified because she was on the wrong end of a rifle. Whichever it was doubtless she was leaning back away from it which would make a slightly upwards trajectory not only possible but likely.

So now you are saying she may have been stood up and leaning back. It's likely! But, here you have a rifle barrel at close range to your neck...surely one would could have grabbed that barrel and fought....what the length of that rifle....49 inches.  I'd have grabbed it.

Anyway, even if she was stood up, the killer would have to have bent down...I just can't go with it..Force me? 

[Bridget]

So now you are saying she may have been stood up and leaning back. It's likely! But, here you have a rifle barrel at close range to your neck...surely one would could have grabbed that barrel and fought....what the length of that rifle....49 inches.  I'd have grabbed it.

Anyway, even if she was stood up, the killer would have to have bent down...I just can't go with it..Force me? 

Of course he wouldn't, why would he?

[Lugg]

You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.
There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something

Well there's anti Jane and anti beryl for starters. I personally do not believe in any third party. Strange that JB had no injuries or forensic evidence on him or at his place though? I also think that had he killed his whole family who would have had to contend with a wild womam who had either just watched her two sons murdered. This in itself would pose a great problem for JB as well as having to withstand both June and Ralph, who we are reminded constantly that he was a big 6 foot strapping strong man. Also I just cannot picture Sheila just calmly laying dound after all that mayhem inviting JB to shoot her. Plus the other bodies were a mess. Hers was not.