The case of Madeleine McCann

[lookout]

If true, where might Maddie's body have been concealed?

Well, behind the sofa as signalled by the cadaver dog, either there, or one or other of the parents had moved her body into their bedroom by the side of their bed, or in the wardrobe, again as signalled by the cadaver dog...

Mike,if the cadaver dogs had signalled the presence of a body,they certainly couldn't have said of whose or what. It could even have been meat/food products of some sort.

[mike tesko]

The Smith sighting of Gerry McCann carrying the body of Maddie down toward the beach fits in snugly with Him being the person who removed the body from apartment 5a, Maddie would not have been sleeping at that time, but would have already died, or been dead...

The Smith contingent would not have been able to tell that the child being carried was either sleeping or dead...

[mike tesko]

Mike,if the cadaver dogs had signalled the presence of a body,they certainly couldn't have said of whose or what. It could even have been meat/food products of some sort.

Yes, that might be true, but the dogs were there to provide leads in connection with Maddie's demise and her disappearence, just like the dogs had done in 200 more police investigations! By all accounts the signalling by these dogs had resulted in all these other cases being brought to a successful conclusion. Why would it potentially be any different in Maddie's case? I believe it's a nailed on certainty that the front roadside door, the steel shutter at the bedroom window, and the window itself were not forced open, but had been opened by Kate herself...

Her own fingerprints were found on the open window, so she certainly opened it...

[mike tesko]

I am more inclined to believe that Maddie might have already died or been killed before the McCanns left apartment 5a to go to the tapas bar from drinks and food! I believe this to be true because of the cadaver scent left in the apartment, having said this, how long does a body have to have been dead before it's gives off sufficient cadaver odour? I believe there might not have been sufficient amount of time for Maddie's body to leave enough cadaver odour behind the sofa, or in the parents wardrobe if she had died or had been killed in apartment 5a say between Gerry's 9.10pm check, Matt Oldfield's 9.30pm check, and Kate's 10pm check! If that proves to be the case, for example if there's a minimum period of time after a person dies, say two to three, or even four hours, then the parents can't have left all three of the children alive in the bedroom of their apartment (5a) when leaving to go to the tapas bar! Maddie would already have been dead by that stage! Same applies regarding Gerry's 9.10pm check, and Matt. Oldfields 9.30pm, check...

More research needs to be done into the rates at which cadaver odours are generated in different environments...

[mike tesko]

I am more inclined to believe that Maddie might have already died or been killed before the McCanns left apartment 5a to go to the tapas bar from drinks and food! I believe this to be true because of the cadaver scent left in the apartment, having said this, how long does a body have to have been dead before it's gives off sufficient cadaver odour? I believe there might not have been sufficient amount of time for Maddie's body to leave enough cadaver odour behind the sofa, or in the parents wardrobe if she had died or had been killed in apartment 5a say between Gerry's 9.10pm check, Matt Oldfield's 9.30pm check, and Kate's 10pm check! If that proves to be the case, for example if there's a minimum period of time after a person dies, say two to three, or even four hours, then the parents can't have left all three of the children alive in the bedroom of their apartment (5a) when leaving to go to the tapas bar! Maddie would already have been dead by that stage! Same applies regarding Gerry's 9.10pm check, and Matt. Oldfields 9.30pm, check...

More research needs to be done into the rates at which cadaver odours are generated in different environments...

(1) - http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/

Detection Dogs

A vital aspect of a forensic investigation may be to detect and locate specific people or substances of interest, ranging from illegal drugs to missing people to clandestine graves. Sophisticated detection equipment does exist, however this technology can often be expensive, have unsuitable portability, and may even prove useless when searching vast areas. Fortunately for investigators, there is an ideal tool available.

Dogs, sometimes known as K9s or sniffer dogs by law enforcement professionals, have played an important role in legal investigations for decades, with their keen sense of smell being harnessed to aid investigations. The average human being has roughly five million sensitive cells within the nose to aid in scent detection. This appears to be a large number, until compared with the 200 million cells in the average dog’s nose. Further increasing the canine’s sense of smell is an organ in the roof of the mouth that is not present in humans. This organ essentially allows the dog to ‘taste’ a smell, thus strengthening its ability to detect odours. Canines detect odours directly from the source or residual scents; odours which persist in an area after the original source is no longer present.

Dogs 1

Obviously the air is full of a vast variety of different odours, many of which will be powerfully clear to the dog. Fortunately they are able to distinguish between different odours, even if one smell overpowers another, and trace a specific scent to its source.

Drug Detection

The police commonly train canines to detect the presence of illicit substances to the extent that they are capable of locating even the tiniest trace of a drug. Such dogs are frequently trailed through train stations, airports, country borders, workplaces, and even schools to allow police to locate individuals who are carrying these illegal substances. The dog may be moved near pieces of luggage, near groups of people, or generally kept in the vicinity to react if he or she picks up on an odour of interest. An average stop and search conducted by officers may yield nothing, especially if the subject has hidden the drugs somewhere on his person. However properly trained canines are usually able to detect the scent of illegal narcotics, regardless of where the suspect has concealed them.

Explosives Detection

Perhaps used more in recent years due to the increased focus on terrorism, canines have also been trained in the detection of explosive materials. The dogs are trained to detect the odours of specific substances such as sulphur, nitroglycerin, and any other compound commonly used in the production of gunpowder and explosive devices. Such specially trained dogs may be used in airports to detect or at least deter terrorism, or in the homes of suspected bomb-makers to identify the presence of these substances on work surfaces and in storage areas. In these scenarios, it is particularly vital that the canine is trained not to touch any substances or devices it does locate, as many types of bomb can potentially explode if touched.

Arson Dogs

Similar to canines trained to detect explosives, arson dogs are instructed to detect the chemical traces of accelerants. During an arson investigation, one of the primary tasks is to determine what caused the fire and, if accelerants were used, establish where the accelerant was placed. Though the odour of most forms of accelerant is generally quite strong, a fire scene will often be engulfed by the smell of smoke and various burning materials. However dogs can be trained to pick out the specific odours of flammable substances and locate the source. Even if the accelerant is found in numerous locations, the dog can be trained to pinpoint the area in which the accelerant concentration is at its greatest.

Cadaver Dogs

Also known as decomposition or victim recovery dogs, these specially trained canines are trained to follow the scent of decomposing flesh in order to locate the bodies of deceased human beings. Whether the cadaver is on the surface, buried underground or under water, a dog’s nose is powerful enough to pick up the scent and trace it back to its source. Cadaver dogs can not only locate actual human remains, but also the location in which a corpse or body parts may have previously been stored by tracking down residual scents. Depending on the use of the cadaver dog, they will be trained to detect specific decomposition odours. For example, some may be trained to detect odours associated with the early stages of decomposition, whereas others may be required to locate older remains. Some dogs are specifically trained to detect dead bodies underwater, with the canine situated on a shoreline or boat. A newer concept is that of historical human remains detection dogs, which are trained to locate historical or archaeological graves.

Dogs 2

Search & Rescue Dogs

Like cadaver dogs, search and rescue canines are trained to specifically locate human beings. However in this instance, they are searching for living individuals, usually missing people, individuals lost in the wilderness, and those trapped during mass disasters. For example, trained dogs will be used in the case of an earthquake, where numerous people may be trapped inside crushed buildings or similar. The dogs follow the scent of each person, so that they may be located and finally rescued.

Tracking Dogs

Tracking dogs are trained for the same purpose as search and rescue dogs – they track down and locate living human beings. However in this case the dogs are trained and used to track down fugitives or suspected criminals. The scene of a recent crime may hold the scent of the perpetrator which, if investigators work quickly enough, may be tracked by a trained dog. Alternatively an object or a piece of clothing known to have belonged to or been touched by the suspect may be presented to the dog, hopefully allowing him or her to follow the scent and locate the suspect.

Training

Dogs are trained as trailing dogs and air-scenting dogs. Trailing dogs follow a scent on the ground, whereas air-scenting dogs must be able to pick an odour out of a breeze and follow it back to its source.

Training begins with repeatedly presenting particular odours to the dog whilst teaching him or her to display a particular alert when detecting the odour. The procedure essentially involves typical Pavlovian conditioning. The dog is motivated to perform a particular task and rewarded upon completion of this task. The canine will soon learn to associate a particular act, in this case locating a specific odour, with receiving a reward, generally in the form of food or a dog treat. Throughout the procedure, trainers may use actual samples of what the dogs are being trained to follow, or they may use chemicals which simulate the scent. Initially the dog may be trained in laboratory-like conditions, in which he or she is simply being taught to identify the odours. Once the dog is capable of doing this, scenario-based training may be given. Potentially distracting odours will also be introduced, generally scents that the dog is likely to encounter during a real search. The dog is trained to ignore these odours and focus on specific scents. Upon locating the desired odour, the canine is taught to situate the point at which the source is at its strongest, at which point it will give a specific indication to the handler.

Various breeds of canine are suitable for police work, though golden retrievers, Labrador retrievers, German shepherds, and border collies are all commonly used.

Fieldwork

During actual field work, the canine’s handler must aid the dog in any way possible. This includes utilising any known information plus his or her own experience to develop a search plan that will give the dog the best opportunity to locate the desired odours. Allowing a dog to randomly move around and sniff a huge area may yield no results or it will take an extremely long time for the dog to locate the target of the search. In outdoor areas, odours may drift and pool in lower areas or up against physical barriers, therefore these locations should especially be searched.

Every search area should be treated as a potential crime scene. Accurate records must be kept of the entire search, including the trainers and canines involved, the area covered by the search, and any findings. Dogs should be trained in such a way that, if they do locate, for example, a human cadaver, they do not actually touch or attempt to retrieve the remains, which would compromise potential evidence. If anything of interest is found, the appropriate professionals will enter the scene to take over. If nothing is found, the area is deemed as having been ‘cleared’ and the search team can move on.

[mike tesko]

TAPAS7 4 MAY 07

66 to 68 Witness statement of David Anthony Payne 2007.05.04

TRANSLATED BY ANNA/ALBYM
01-Processo - 01 Pages 66 to 68
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_66
 
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_67
 
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_68
 
David Payne's statements were taken the day after Madeleine's disappearance, May 4th 2007 at 2.45pm. As with all the others, David Payne was accompanied by a, "sworn," interpreter, A. Francisco M. The statement was recorded by inspector Patricia D.
The words at the beginning of an interview are invariably the same. They are mandatory type words. They form the legal basis of the document. Recited often, they are like:
"We, Patricia D., police inspector, in the service of the PJ, Portimao Section, note:"

On the subject we are recording it is shown:

That the interviewee made this statement voluntarily. That he has been on holiday in Portugal since April 28th 2007, staying at the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz. That he plans to return to England on May 5th 2007 (Saturday). That he has known Madeleine's parents for around 5 years. That he was on holiday with Madeleine and her parents. That he came with a group. That the group is composed of nine adults and eight children. The adults are: Diane, the interviewee and his wife (children: ***** and ***), Russell and Jane (children: **** and ****), Matthew and Rachael (child: ******), Gerry and Kate (children: Amelie, Sean and Madeleine).
That they came to Portugal via a tour operator. That it was the interviewee who booked the trip.

Concerning the days spent in Portugal, the interviewee describes them as being all very much the same. He states that his family, composed of his mother-in-law Diane, his wife Fiona and their two children, spent their days more independently than other members of the group. They were most often with the couple Russell and Jane.
Concerning the remaining members of the group, normally we met up with them in the morning and went for breakfast, together, at the, "Millennium," restaurant, after which they left their children at their respective mini-clubs and the adults went to do sports inside the tourist complex or they went to the beach.
The couple Gerry and Kate had breakfast in the apartment. It was usual to have dinner together every night. With the exception of Saturday, when they all dined at the, "Millennium," restaurant, every evening the group was to be found at the, "Tapas," restaurant at around 8.45 for dinner. While the adults were dining, the children were sleeping in their respective apartments.

In answer to our question, the interviewee states that during all the meals, he never went to his apartment or to any of the group's apartments, because he has an, "intercom," and the signal carries from the apartment to the restaurant. The other members of the group went, randomly, every 20 minutes, to their apartments to make sure their respective children were asleep.

Concerning yesterday evening, he states that he, his wife and his mother-in-law arrived at the restaurant at around 8.55pm. According to what he remembers, when they arrived, all the members of the group were present, apart from the children, who were in bed. During the evening, Gerry, Jane and Matthew went, alternately, to their children's bedrooms to check if they were sleeping. He thinks they physically went into the apartments. He no longer remembers in what order they went see their children.

Towards 10pm, Kate went to her apartment, and less than 5 minutes later, she came back to the restaurant, breaking down, reporting that Madeleine had disappeared. Then everybody went to the apartment occupied by Madeleine's family. He remembers comments concerning the fact that the window and the shutters were open, while they had remained closed throughout the week.

That the apartment occupied by Madeleine's family comprises two bedrooms, a small kitchen, a lounge and a bathroom. That the lounge has a door which gives outside access in the direction of the restaurant. He does not recall any more details of the apartment but he remembers that the bedroom occupied by the children has a window that looks onto the main road. That he never went into the said bedroom occupied by the children but he could see that there were two beds and two cots. The cots were placed in the middle of the bedroom. One of the beds was placed against the window and the other, the one occupied by Madeleine, was against the wall facing the one which has a window.

In answer to our question, the interviewee doesn't know how many times Madeleine left the tourist complex, but he knows she went, at least once, to the beach. That during the holiday, he saw nothing abnormal concerning the couple Gerry and Kate, neither with their children nor, notably, with Madeleine. In the context of the group, he noticed nothing abnormal. That during the whole holiday, and particularly during the day and the night yesterday, nothing unusual happened in the tourist complex, which attracted his attention, or which could be correlated with Madeleine's disappearance.

He describes Madeleine as being a communicative girl, happy, obedient and very well behaved. Madeleine's parents are very sociable people, known by lots of people, kind and affectionate. Madeleine is indeed the daughter of both elements of the couple. She was wanted and is the result of, "In Vitro," fertilisation. There was no difference in treatment between Madeleine and the twins. He doesn't know if Madeleine suffers from any illness, nor if she is on medication. He has nothing more to say that could help the progress of the investigation.

[mike tesko]

TAPAS7 FRIDAY 11 APRIL 2008 10:26
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No IM23A
TRANSCRIPT BY NICKED AND WHATEVER
PART ONE BY NICKED
 
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No IM23A
 Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 45
 Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
 Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
 Time Commenced: 1026 hours

 Time Concluded: 1154 hours Duration of Interview: 89 minutes
 Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
 Other Persons Present None
 
 Tape counter times Person speaking Text
 
 00:00:04 1485 "Okay, the interview is being video recorded, I'll make sure it is, yeah, the video, the interview is being video recorded and we are at Leicestershire Police Force, Force Headquarters alright.

The date is Friday the eleventh of April two thousand and eight, and I make the time by my watch ten twenty six. My name is DC Ivor MESSIAH and I'm a Detective in the Major Crime Department at Leicestershire Police, alright''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Could you tell me who you are please' Your name, date of birth and where you live.'

 Reply "Yes, my name's David PAYNE, my date of birth is fourteenth of the fourth, fifty six, I live in *********** ***
 , and I, do you want to know, sorry, what else''

1485 "What's your occupation''

 Reply "Err I work as a hospital Doctor in err at a Registrar in the Trent Region, currently working in Derby City General Hospital, where I've been there for just over a week and then prior to that I was at the Leicester General Hospital, where I've been there for err two years.'

1485 "Fine, okay. As we explained on the chat before we came into this interview room, this interview is being monitored. There is a colleague in another room that's watching what's happening here, he's acting as my second eyes if you like.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "And second ears, if there's anything I've missed you know it'll be brought to my attention. Equally the Detective Superintendent will also monitor during the course of today, alright''

 Reply "Right.'

 00:01:44 1485 "Are you happy to continue knowing that this interview is being recorded''

 Reply "I'm happy to continue.'

1485 "Okay, and subsequently at the end of this interview it may be that a statement is produced probably later on in the day regarding this interview, okay''

 Reply "That's alright, yes.'

1485 "As I say as I explained as well there may be lots of duplication during this interview, it may be quite tedious because you know you'll have answered it eleven months ago, equally your mind will be quite hazy I'm sure, the sequence of events you know you were interviewed by the Portuguese early doors.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Last May, and your answers may not be parallel to what you spoke to them about, don't worry about it, you know it's passage of time but all I'm asking you to do is to try and recall as much as you can, the days leading up to Madeleine MCCANN'S disappearance because that's what we're here to investigate and at the end of the day you are our witnesses, you're not a suspect you are our witnesses, do you understand that''

 Reply "I do, yes.' 00:02:52

1485 "Okay, David, just tell me a bit about yourself, a bit about your family, you're obviously married to Fiona PAYNE, you've told me where you live, just tell me a bit about yourself and her.'

 Reply "Okay, err as I say we have two children, err Lily and Scarlet, err Lily will be err four in August, Scarlet's nearly two. Err as I say we both work as hospital Doctors err we both, err myself and Fiona trained in Leicester err where we graduated from err we both, we met when we were at Medical School and err yeah on the whole we've worked in the Leicestershire err region. Err you know we're both very happy, err''

1485 "How old are your children sorry' Did you say''

 Reply "Err yes Scarlet will be two in May and Lily will be four in August.'

1485 "And how long you been married''

 Reply "Err we were married since two thousand and three.'

1485 "Two thousand and three''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Okay. Tell me about your social circle.'

 Reply "Okay, err you know, when we got married, we actually got married in Italy and the majority of friends of ours unfortunately, or fortunately, are in the medical profession, I think it's the way it works with the hours and err yeah the nature of the job and exams etcetera, like you tend to socialise quite a lot with medical people. Err obviously the, you know the group who went to Portugal, Russell, err who I knew through, he was in my year at medical school, err subsequently obviously I knew Jane through Russell. Err in terms of Kate and Gerry, we knew, Fiona had worked with Kate and that's how I got to know Kate and Gerry, err you know we have probably a, just a, not a tight band of friends but you know its generally the same people, so the people who went, you know a lot of people came our wedding in Italy, who we subsequently had perhaps been on holiday with but we still stay in touch with. Err and if we socialise with anyone then it tends to be the same, same groups of, same group of people, the majority of them medical, obviously apart from Jane and Rachael of course.'

00:05:31 1485 "Is everybody locally based''

 Reply "Err I mean, err obviously Kate and Gerry being in Leicestershire, Russell and Jane were in the Leicestershire region as well up until last year when they moved err to Exeter. Err and then Matt and Rachael, they also you know were originally in Leicestershire and they've moved down err working in London. Err but, you know, other friends we have, you know we have friends dotted around the country err but you know those are the main.'

1485 "The main.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

 1485 "Okay. Moving on to Portugal, the holiday last year, the holiday started twenty eighth of April and was due to finish the fifth of May I believe. It's my understanding that you did, you were instrumental really in the arranging.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "The co-ordination of the holiday.'

 Reply "That's correct.'

 00:06:37 1485 "What I want you to do now is, don't assume I know anything, okay.'

 Reply "Right.'

1485 "Just imagine that you haven't spoke to anybody in Portugal about this and tell me in the beginning how it all come to happen, in other words who first decided it was going to be Portugal, and then subsequently what happened up until the day that you went away.'

 Reply "Okay. Err it's a long winded answer.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "I mean when we first, err you know the first kind of concept of a group holiday if you like, was when you know we went to Italy for our wedding where we actually stayed, you know we had all of the guests staying there err for that weekend, and you know, I know they all say your wedding's the best, one of the best days in your life but it was just absolutely fantastic. We had children staying there and it was just such a great occasion with, with everyone around and you know everyone came and said what a fantastic, you know, time that they'd had err so you know that was the kind of, if you like, the beginnings of that, that concept of you know a group holiday err we then subsequently err you know we did have holidays with other people, you know we went away with Kate and Gerry and other friends err to Majorca and again you know although it was very hard, you know we'd had difficulties with you know with our child just sleeping wise and you know it's hard work but still you appreciated the fact that there's a group of you there and we subsequently had been away with err Russell, Jane, and Matt and Rachael err on another group holiday err the year after that, and then so we'd always been looking you know to do the same things, it is much easier when you have a group of children you know they interact together and you know it's great for the parents and you're all at a similar stage in life with the way that they're growing up and you know so we were always looking to continue that yearly err holiday, and you know we knew that Kate and Gerry had met Russell and Jane and so you know, like with the wedding, so all the people had you know a reasonable relationship before err we'd gone away to Portugal. So you know we were just looking to continue that err last year. Err we'd all, or certainly we'd been on a Mark Warner before, I think Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane had been on a Mark Warner type holiday and you know so we were looking to go on that type of holiday where we had err all the amenities that Mark Warner had to offer so they've got you know the sporting facilities, they've got the creche facilities for the children and you know so that, that kind of holiday was what we were looking for. Err I'm trying to remember when we first chatted about you know going on the holiday. I mean I can only remember really that we were trying to arrange it probably two or three months err prior to us actually booking the holiday and err but probably we'd been chatting it I'm sure before, it may well have been before Christmas. Err you know I'd looked on the internet at you know what the availability was in different err locations and Portugal was the only err Mark Warner holiday that would offer err you know a holiday at that time of the year. Err so you know we were hoping that the weather would be fine and Portugal was a reasonable distance for taking children on the plane so we, you know, we settled on, on t hat holiday. Err over the weeks there was quite a lot of discussion about going away, you know, on the Mark Warner holiday err the, you know we, it got to the stage of booking it and then there had been some questioning about the err you know the fact that it wasn't the kind of (inaudible) same holiday as you know other Mark Warner's err you know and you know could they guarantee that we would all be together in err you know the apartments and I'd had quite a discussion with Mark Warner you know email wise just to make, try and make sure that we were guaranteed err together.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:10:59 Reply "And the rationale for that was just that we would you know it's just easier if you are all in the same lot, you know you can go next door and you know, just from the children's point of view you know we would all be segregated if you like. Err and then obviously there was the discovery that that wasn't the same, it wasn't you know the same self contain but err yeah there was similar facilities available. Err I think, yeah so sorry as I was say just to reinforce you know I quite a lot of correspondence with Mark Warner regarding that and the rest of the group. Err I think when you, when you're booking a holiday like this you know I quite enjoy err sorting it out for everybody and err feel some, you know it makes me feel good about myself if I've managed to arrange it for everybody and taken the hard work out of it and you know I ended up organising our wedding because Fiona had got her exams, and it was the same thing you know a lot of people enjoyed themselves, I wanted to try and do the same thing, make it easier for everybody, and err yeah I know that err again there'd been some concern from Kate and Gerry that they wanted to go away on that, both err parties weren't a hundred percent you know sure on that type of holiday. I can't say exactly you know what the reasons, I can't remember and from that point of view but in the end you know we just thought oh it's a great holiday there's, everybody knows everybody and that we would have a very good time there. There was err you know some discussion about where we would fly from and who would fly with who and whether we take the Mark Warner flights and from that point of view we err originally, we eventually settled on that you know we would fly out from East Midlands with Kate and Gerry because the timing of the flights was, was perfect, it wasn't too early in the morning you know so we don't have to go at some ridiculous hour, we don't want to arrive there with kids err tired, and err so you know we, we, err myself, Fiona and Lily and Scarlet then flew out with err Kate and Gerry, Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, and err you know that was basically how we ended up booking the holiday and arriving there.'

 00:13:15 1485 "Okay. I'll just go back to a few things what you've said, who did you book the holiday with''

 Reply "Err the, I mean we booked it directly through Mark Warner.'

1485 "Right.'

 Reply "Err and the ladies that I dealt a lot with and I have, yeah I've got the email, I've actually got the document with all the err you know the email correspondence I had, I think it was, the main lady was a lady called Jasminder MING but you know there was other people that I dealt with booking it, but she was the central figure err that helped us in dealing with.'

 1485 "Right, and you say that Kate and Gerry initially weren't that keen because of, what is it they weren't keen about''

 Reply "Well, say from, you know, from recollections and obviously we have discussed you know the situation since.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err was that you know Kate had got an uneasy feeling, that's all you know, has come back to her and I remember you know again, whether this is something that's subsequently I feel has happened be, you know before the event, but you know Fiona had certainly mentioned it err that you know Kate wasn't quite you know, didn't feel quite easy about it but there was no explanation that I could give you or you know even subsequently err in discussions that you know there wasn't one thing. Kate, err I think Gerry's very, he's very enthusiastic and I think he's you know, you see the way that he's conducted himself you know over the last few months, he's a very sorted person, a very dynamic person you know he was all you know, don't worry you know it'll be fine and everything''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Will work its way out and you know whether it be the logistics of the situation that err Kate was more concerned about you know I really couldn't answer that question.'

1485 "Mm, so just so I've got it straight in my head, did the, the concern from Kate materialise with Fiona since or did it come out in the period that the holiday was booked''

 00:15:19 Reply "I, in my mind there was some concern before the holiday but I find it very difficult to separate whether this is just something which is implanted since we've discussed after err Madeleine's disappearance.'

1485 "Right.'

 Reply "I can't, I couldn't a hundred percent say that in certainty.'

1485 "Okay, and there was some discussion between yourself and Mark Warner regarding the rooms.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "You say you needed the rooms for together''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "What took, what sort of conversations took place''

 Reply "Err basically when, you know prior to the booking err Mark Warner had err he said oh yes it's, you know don't worry we can make sure that all the apartments are together and err then subsequently after booking I then you know, I, obviously it was just something that was very you know because we knew there was some difficulties geographically that you know you could be split out over quite a distance on the actual Mark Warner site. Well that would have impacted, we felt you know quite heavily on the holiday if we'd have you know one couple were, you know, completely out on the limb and everyone else was together so when I'd mentioned this again you know just to, just to err you know, confirm that that would be the situation, that we'd be all together they, the reply was I'm afraid we can't actually guarantee that you will all be together because this is not solely a Mark Warner err set up you know so unfortunately we are slightly err at the vagaries of the Ocean Club about where couples will be but we'll do our utmost to make sure that you are you know together. So err yeah so that's generally the way that the, err the conversation or the email correspondence went. Err I, you know there was other things that were slightly different you know obviously from the childcare you know point of view. They had the, you know they had the listening service that they have, you know at the other Mark Warner venues that we'd been on, and err you know that was part, you know that was the concept again that we were buying in to the Mark Warner and you know when we went out there that was partly, so again there was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as well, err Mark Warner's are generally I think half, you know half board and that wasn't on offer so there's some differences with Mark, that, that particular err venue compared with the other Mark Warner's that the, that the couples I've already mentioned had been on previously.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:18:00 Reply "And err you know just for the record, embarrassingly or as it turns out now in err retrospect you know it's a small change but you know the Mark Warner had also advertised that you know they were gonna discount the holiday by ten percent you know not long after we booked, which slightly irritated me, given the fact that we booked it and then he said well actually we don't have this, we don't have this, so I'd had correspondence probably being a bit cheeky just to say what, what, you know you can knock us ten percent off as well and they gave us some discount, which you know looking back just seems, you know, ridiculous.'
1485 "Yeah, in the scale of things. Why specifically was it the Ocean Club''

 Reply "Err I mean as I say, we, we bought into the concept of a group holiday, we bought into the concept of Mark Warner, we'd all you know, apart from Kate and Gerry I don't think they'd done Mark Warner, but you know we'd certainly been on that type of holiday before, and as I you know recall they were the only Mark Warner resort that was open at that time of the year. I don't think Egypt was you know available at that time of year, I don't think err Turkey was available and certainly Greece, so I think at that particular moment in time it was just that Portugal was the only one that opened that early in the season.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And it just fitted in with our timings, we felt, you know, obviously you go away, you want it to be a bit warmer and you know we thought that Portugal would be ideal.'

1485 "Right. You've touched on, about the listening service that you say that Mark Warner supply. What did you understand about their listening service' What did it actually do''

 Reply "Err I mean traditionally the, the other resorts they'll have a listening service and what that involves is that, you know, if you're staying on a Mark Warner err resort they will, you know if you ask for this listening service, the parents can go and have their evening meal and you will supply the details of which you know is your accommodation and they will go and listen outside the room of each of the err you know the rooms, just to check whether the baby's crying or there's, you know there seems to be any problem and you know that was obviously what we were hoping for err there as well. You know we realised that that wasn't err what they offered err in Portugal and we knew that they did have err a drop-in err creche for the evenings, you know I cannot, you know I cannot tell you what the times were err that you can leave them but you know we all felt you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening outside the door but you know we actually went into rooms or the other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn't offer that service. Err you know the, the, yeah, so that was really''

00:21:10 1485 "Yeah, and over what frequency did you understand that they would have done the listening service''

 Reply "I mean in, at the other resorts that we've been to err I believe they do it every thirty minutes err you know as I say we actually haven't used that service when we've been but you know the friends who have they've, they've said it's around thirty minutes.'

1485 "Yeah, and did the group, were the group aware that that was the listening service's, well that's what was available within the listening service' Was''

 Reply "I, I would be pretty sure that most people before they went away knew, its the kind of thing that I'd be a bit anal about, that oh crikey or they don't offer this and oh you know they said that they 'd got this and its not available and I would, you know I'd have seen it as my responsibility again, I haven't actually checked through the emails, you know obviously some of it may have been on phone calls, to actually validate that but I'd be pretty sure that everyone was aware that we would be going knowing exactly what the circumstances were, and I think, I suppose for my mindset, the main thing for me was that we were all, everyone was together as a group you know the locality of the, sort of the vicinity of the rooms was, was close enough to make everything as easy as possible, you know from, from all perspectives, whether it be during the day or, or during the evening.'

00:22:37 1485 "Yeah, okay. So you've stopped your recall at the flights, so you get to the airport, airport went okay''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Because you said that you flew with Gerry, Kate and Gerry.

 Reply "We did, yes.'

1485 "And''

 Reply "Yeah we had err you know a very good flight err from my, I can remember it wasn't err, it was, the flight was about nine in the morning, nine, nine thirty. Err everyone you know seemed, it seemed to go without any event, we didn't remember it as one of the worst flights we'd ever had going, I couldn't say that about some of the other flights that we've been on so the kids you know I'm sure they'd, you know it was very easy you know they'd all behaved themselves and there's as least hassle as possible err you know everyone's excited, it's you know that time of the year you're all looking forward and err Lily you know and Madeleine you know had met many times before and you know they were happy to be together err I can remember you know them holding hands and you know getting on the plane and we've got the video footage on the, you know on the err phone of that you know when Madeleine, you know, slipped and banged her leg. Err you know it was as I say a very straight forward flight, got there with minimal hassle err at some stage you know there was some text messages with the rest of the group they'd you know already arrived before us. Err you know we were met by, err you know Gerry had organised err the taxi side of it err over in err Portugal, you know it had been my responsibility to sort out the Mark Warner and everything and Gerry had err had you know err paid for the flight and he'd sorted the taxis out over there. Err you know the being concerned about the child seats in the taxi but you know we were all relatively happy err going to the resort, it just all seemed very straight forward, very seamless, err you know we were, as I say there was, there was just no problems that you really could recall at that stage, it was very straight forward.'

00:25:01 1485 "During the flight did Kate refer to her concerns again''

 Reply "No, no I mean err you know she, I think to play on that particular aspect of like how worried she was about going away would probably be over cooking it really, overstating the case. Err you know Kate is a, you know is a very optimistic person and you know once she'd made the decision you know went with it and you know Kate very happy to be there and part of the group and certainly didn't voice any concerns going over there.'

1485 "Okay. The rest of the group, sorry, in your group, in your flight''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Was yourself.'

 Reply "Yes.'

 1485 "Fiona.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Your two children.'

 Reply "That's correct.'

1485 "Dianne''

 Reply "Err yes Dianne, yes.'

 1485 "Kate, Gerry, Amelie.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Madeleine and Sean.'

 Reply "That's correct.'

1485 "Yeah, and you flew from East Midlands''

 Reply "That's correct.'

1485 "The others, where did the others fly from''

 Reply "Err the others flew from, I think it was Heathrow, I'm not a hundred percent sure, Heathrow or Gatwick, but err you know they, I think they'd, they'd gone with a Mark Warner flight which was supplied with the, as I say the Heathrow or Gatwick, and so they'd gone at any earlier flight but I think you know it was err you know a cheaper option. We ended up paying extra money than, you know, want for the flight times which were more appropriate and not having to travel down err to London, but we felt that was more you know as I say better for the children, they'd get a longer sleep plus we didn't have to pay for car parks down in London and petrol etcetera so err but I cannot, I'm not a hundred percent sure whether it's Heathrow or Gatwick, sorry.'
00:26:49 1485 "Okay, okay. So when you get to Portugal, tell me about the scenario from the time you left the airport to the time you was actually booked in at the Ocean Club.'

 Reply "Yes, yeah err the, you know we, we got the, the taxi which Gerry had sorted out err you know I say we got all the baggage in err you know from the seat, the car seating we were just trying to work out what the best options and where to put the children into the taxi. We then had the journey from the airport to Praia Da Luz and err you know again very straight forward err yeah I can't remember how long it took whether it be forty minutes or, or whatever. Err we arrived there, there was a little bit of difficulty actually finding err where we needed to be err at the err Ocean Club. Yeah I seem to, we had some texts I think in the, you know with err Russell and Matt, you know where were they, what were they up to and you know the rooms and etcetera. We then, we finally found the err the reception at the Ocean Club which was you know err geographically slightly different distance from where we were err staying err and then we were met err at the reception there. Again, I can't remember who err met us, we gave err you know we picked up err you know so we got a letter and we were, we then went back on to the err transport which took us down to the rooms but I think you know there was either one or two of the Mark Warner representatives and then we you know we then went to the rooms that we were allocated and err you know obviously err Russell, Jane and Matt and Rachael were already err in their rooms and then we just kind of looked at the sheets and oh that's where our room is, we found the room and Kate and Gerry then went off err to their room. Err we, you know we'd kind of meet up and have a chat about what's going on there you know and that's how we arrived at the rooms.'

00:29:04 1485 "Okay, tell me about your room.'

 Reply "Okay.'

1485 "Where it was, or''

 Reply "We, yeah we were, we were slightly different to the other three apartments err we were, we were upstairs err we, you know the other parties were all err in the apartments downstairs, err you went in through the, you know, the door into the apartment which took you into the living area. Err in the living area slightly to the right was the dining room, all open plan, and there was a patio doors you know which led out to the balcony. Err if you turned right immediately into the apartment there was the, err the kitchen, err if you went into the main living area and turned left that took you to the, err bedrooms and the bathroom. The first on the left was one of the bedrooms as you're walking along and then you had, going in an anticlockwise direction, there was the, err the bathroom and then the next room you know anticlockwise was the other bedroom. Err and then there was the, obviously the lounge part, there was the television, there was err, err a sofa in there which was a sofa bed which is where Dianne err slept and I say then there was a balcony with a sliding doors which led out to the balcony. Err so that's pretty much the, the apartment.'

00:30:33 1485 "How good are you at sketching''

 Reply "Err, not very good.'

1485 "Otherwise it's just a brief like birds-eye view floor plan of when you come in.'

 Reply "Okay. So if you were walking through the door err here, which you opened, as you walk in here the kitchen would have been just here, and there was a doorway just leading in, into the kitchen. This was part of the dining room, you know you've got the sliding doors which were, you know just situated here, this was the, err where the dining room table was. You had the err lounge part here, there was a television just over, you know, in the corner here and there's another chair about there and then I think there's the sofa was over here. Err there was a err piece of furniture like a dresser or a side cabinet there, as you came along here, I've drawn this bit wrong.'

1485 "It's alright.'

 Reply "The, the, yeah the first bedroom would have been you know kind of here. Then you had the bathroom which was here and then you had the next bedroom was here, so the doorways were in there, no sorry there and there into the bedrooms, yeah.'

1485 "Yeah''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "I've got the gist of that.'

 Reply "But that's, yeah so.'

00:32:07 1485 "Just mark on what rooms they are, you say that's the kitchen.'

 Reply "So that's the kitchen there, that's the dining room, that's kind of the lounge there, that's the balcony, err so that's bedroom one, that's the bathroom, that's bedroom two.'

1485 "Okay so we have bedroom one and we have bedroom two.'

 Reply "Yes.'

 1485 "Which bedroom did your children sleep in''

 Reply "Err in''

1485 "Or which did you designate for them to sleep in''

 Reply "Yeah we had err Lily err was in bedroom one and''

 1485 "That's the one nearest to that door there.'

 Reply "That's correct.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And Scarlet was staying in with us in bedroom two. Err and as I say Dianne was in the lounge err on a, on a, you know the sofa bed.'

00:33:11 1485 "Right. The door, the outside door that you entered, what sort of a door was that''

 Reply "Err''

1485 "Sorry, weird question really.'

 Reply "Yes, yes.'

 1485 "How did it lock, and''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Was it secure''

 Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'
00:34:18 1485 "And your pat, you say your patio doors.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "So you were on, upstairs''

 Reply "We were.'

1485 "Is that the first floor or the second floor''

 Reply "Err so ground floor is obviously the floor where you're walking around.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And then you went up one flight of stairs err to what I would call the first floor.'

1485 "Okay, and how was that door accessed''

 Reply "Err I mean essentially you know as you came out of the apartment we were quite close to err a lift err and you know stairs at the side so you virtually come out of that lift or at the stairs and then you would go into that apartment, but there was access err to other apartments with a walk way generally along the side.'

1485 "Yeah, and once you'd got outside, what's the scenario outside''

 Reply "Err I mean if you, you're coming out of the apartment through the err front door you, you know as I say you were close to the lift and elevator. If you went to the side of that there was you know like a balcony that you could then look on err you know out on the car park err and then you could see you know the main road, you know, beyond that and then there was err some other apartments that you could make out you know which were a reasonable distance away but you could, you know, see, you know you could make out people at that distance. Err and that was essentially it.'

00:35:42 1485 "Okay. I've got another sketch for you to draw now but I'm not looking for anything to Rolf Harris.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Just a birds-eye view of your apartment.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "In relation to the rest of your group.'

 Reply "Right. This''

1485 "I know that you say that you're upstairs and they're downstairs.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "If you could just sort of do a block of upstairs.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "And then do a block of downstairs and then pinpoint where they were, if you see what I mean.'
 Reply "Okay, yeah. So, I mean, if you, if that was the end of the block and this is the ground, err sorry this is the upstairs.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "So I've got first floor on that. The err so if you were out on the balcony here.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "I mean it was slightly difficult because you were , you know, you couldn't quite see down below, whether, sorry, then if this is the ground floor err block. It's obviously it's very easy to remember that err Kate and Gerry's apartment was right you know at the end.'

 1485 "Yes.'

 Reply "Of there. There was certainly a gap in between one of the apartments and I can't remember whether that gap was in between err Kate and Gerry's and Matt and Rachael's, or that whether it was between Matt and Rachael's and Russell and Jane's but essentially you know, this, sorry I'll just draw these on, so that's the front, that's the front, err Russ and Jane's were the closest to us so you know they were directly below.'

1485 "Yes.'

 Reply "Then Matt and Rachael, so, so Russ and Jane, so Matt and Rachael were either next door to Russ and Jane or there was a gap in between and then you had Kate and Gerry's, you know at the end, but I can't really give it any more...'

1485 "Yeah that's fine, that's fine.'

 Reply "Yeah, so''

 00:37:52 1485 "So the rear then, which is that side there.'

 Reply "Yes, yeah.'

1485 "Have you got the pool in front of you then''

 Reply "Yes, I mean look, looking, err looking out err the pool err was slightly off to the side but you know kind of that angle err but you know we had very good vision err of the pool and people.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err you know by the side of the pool and err yeah and in between obviously the, the apartments there was the back of the apartments where they you know you could walk out at which part of the apartment and then there was the walk where the alley way which you know then separated the block from the Ocean Club. Err so we generally, if I chatted to anyone it wasn't usually when they were in the garden below us it was more, they would be either walking you know we'd be sat on the balcony and someone would walk by or someone was at the pool and we'd have a conversation, kind of thing.'
 
00:38:48 1485 "Yeah. Just jumping back, I've got a little bit ahead of myself, the listening service I understand that you made your own arrangements in relation to listening, child listening''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "What's the circumstances regarding your listening arrangements''

 Reply "Err we, yeah, had err got a digital monitor which you know we obviously we used back, back home. Err yeah it was very good, it was very foolproof, we were very happy with the monitor. Err it's quite a high tech monitor, you could play tunes at the other end of the monitor and so you know when err Scarlet was very little we had that option to use that. So you know we had chatted about what we felt was you know reasonably err you know safe, and we say safe in the perspective of you know both our children at that stage were in cots, you know I think the two main things that you would be concerned about or you know obviously not retrospectively now but certainly before the holiday was whether the child was gonna wake up crying you or whether the child could get you know away from the area where they were. So from our point of view we thought well they're both in cots, they can't get out their cots and the monitor you know covered the crying issue. Err the monitor we checked you know that it worked and that you could hear you know from that distance err there's, I think there's a fail safe on it if it loses signal it start, you know the distance between the base and the err mobile unit err you know, you, you get red lights showing that there is, you know that the reception is being lost. So you know we did chat you know right from the beginning whether we felt that was, you know that was reasonable and in our assessment we felt that was reasonable. Err you know we, we generally stayed err in the room, no sorry in the apartment until the children you know had fallen asleep, you know and then, you know we did all go down together and err so yeah there was occasions where you could hear something perhaps on the monitor in the room while you were you know over in the Tapas area. Err so you know on the whole we, you know, we were happy''

1485 "You were okay with that''

 00:41:22 Reply "With that, that scenario'.

1485 "Where did you, where did you place the intercom when you went''

 Reply "Err the, obviously with the, the map of the, err the rooms err you know we, we tended to leave the doors open of the two rooms and we either left them, you know, usually left the monitor here. Err I can't remember exactly where the plug point was but usually because we were, you know, if anyone was gonna cry it was more likely gonna be Scarlet but you could hear.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "You know but the, the distance between the two rooms is nothing.'

1485 "Yes.'

 Reply "And err you know so it was virtually slightly closer to bedroom two but certainly you know, no, no distance at all from bedroom one.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "You know there were, you know the, the, the, you know as I say the quality of the err listening monitor was, you could set the sensitivity of it to you know whatever you wanted and you know we obviously had it on maximum sensitivity and there was no concern about you know we weren't gonna hear them when they were crying.'

00:42:38 1485 "What about the sliding doors in the apartment, what were they like''

 Reply "Err the sliding doors were a slight, they were slightly difficult to lock and that was you know one of our concerns err when we were there and it was, it was quite temperamental whether you could open them or, or, or lock them, and err yeah especially you know sometimes we had the other children coming up there so it was difficult but there was someone on the balcony or if their children were to you know venture out we would keep an eye and you know explain to them that they shouldn't be out on the balcony you know without an adult present. Err but obviously we tried to keep the err door shut when no-one was out on the balcony and err open if there's someone sat out there keeping an eye on them. Err the way it opened and locked was again I think it was err like a, a, a lat, you know like a lever which went up and down and I just remember it not being the most easy to err work out how to shut and, a bit temperamental.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "So err you know so that was probably one of the slight difficulties with that room.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "You know, being on the first floor.'

1485 "Did any of the internal doors have any locks on''

 Reply "Err the bathroom did but I can't remember the, whether the bedrooms did or not.'

00:44:11 1485 "Okay. So the picture I was painting there was just to get a, for me to get a view really of''

 Reply "Yes.'

 1485 "Of what you were faced with when you got your apartment.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Do you remember what number your apartment was''

 Reply "Err four G' I don't know, I don't know. I probably would have said, well hopefully I would have said on my previous statement you know.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "But four, you know''

1485 "It's what you can remember now.'

 Reply "Four G kind of rings a bell but I wouldn't certainly, you know.'

 1485 "Okay, okay. So moving on then, we, you arrive at your apartment.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "You say that you've, that the bus has took you round, you've gone to yours, Gerry and Kate have gone to theirs, Matt and Rachael and Russell were already there.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "What sort of time in the day was this''

 Reply "Crikey, err it was, I'd have said mid afternoon, yeah perhaps around three, four o' clock err in the afternoon, still, you know light, still some time in the day left yeah to enjoy it, and again that was one of the benefits of that flight, it was a nice time that we weren't arriving there at, at night, you know the kids would go straight to bed so you just had a bit of day light, you know just to see what the place was like and err you know just to make the most of that bit of day that you had left.'

00:45:32 1485 "Okay. So now what I want you to do is talk me through the rest of your day. Try and, try not to leave out anything.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "How menial it may be.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "If you can remember talking to anybody to the time you went to bed.'

 Reply "Mm, err I think one of the things that I remember is there was difficulties you know we was trying to get the cots situation sorted out and I can't remember, I mean I've thought about this when, you know because I went into Kate and Gerry's apartment right, you know from the beginning to sort out one of the cots because I don't think they, you know, there was a spare one they, they'd had or just to work that out, but err you know during, during the day as I say I, its such a long time ago and all I can remember is we were you know excited, we were going into one person's apartment, having a chat and seeing where they'd been, err you know but I must admit I can't give any detail really err regarding exactly who we chatted to or what, the rest of that day. Err you know we, you know we all went err to Millennium, again I, whether it was the Saturday night or the Sunday night I'm not, I can't recall.'

1485 "Mm.'

 00:46:51 Reply "And err you know we all, you know that was the first group meeting that we'd had all, altogether but I'm sorry I can't really recall more.'

1485 "Mm, how long before you all went to the Millennium, I appreciate you're all excited and, in your words, you'd gone into each others apartments, you'd gone into you know Kate and Gerry's.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "How long before you'd all sort of, all the excitement had subsided if you like before you eventually went up to, left the apartments as a group''

 Reply "Yes, I'm really sorry I can't say exactly what time.'

1485 "No, sort of rough time.'

 Reply "Rough, roughly''

1485 "Rough sort of time span.'

 Reply "Err I mean, several, it must have been several hours because the girls you know were excited, they're playing and everything, so I, I'd say several hours but I'm sorry, I can't say any more.'

1485 "That's okay, if you can't remember times''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "During this interview, try and refer to time spans.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "That might make it, that's a more of a broader''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Spectrum isn't it.'

 Reply "Yes.'

[maggie]

I am more inclined to believe that Maddie might have already died or been killed before the McCanns left apartment 5a to go to the tapas bar from drinks and food! I believe this to be true because of the cadaver scent left in the apartment, having said this, how long does a body have to have been dead before it's gives off sufficient cadaver odour? I believe there might not have been sufficient amount of time for Maddie's body to leave enough cadaver odour behind the sofa, or in the parents wardrobe if she had died or had been killed in apartment 5a say between Gerry's 9.10pm check, Matt Oldfield's 9.30pm check, and Kate's 10pm check! If that proves to be the case, for example if there's a minimum period of time after a person dies, say two to three, or even four hours, then the parents can't have left all three of the children alive in the bedroom of their apartment (5a) when leaving to go to the tapas bar! Maddie would already have been dead by that stage! Same applies regarding Gerry's 9.10pm check, and Matt. Oldfields 9.30pm, check...

More research needs to be done into the rates at which cadaver odours are generated in different environments...

I cannot believe that 2 parents with no background of violence or abuse would kill their child and gaily go off to a tapas bar to meet friends, eat drink and be merry.  Only a highly disordered person could ever behave in such a way.  With respect Mike, that argument simply doesn't get off the ground with me.

[mike tesko]

I cannot believe that 2 parents with no background of violence or abuse would kill their child and gaily go off to a tapas bar to meet friends, eat drink and be merry.  Only a highly disordered person could ever behave in such a way.  With respect Mike, that argument simply doesn't get off the ground with me.

Question marks hang over Gerry McCanns background involving his daughter, and David Payne if I recollect correctly, on a previous holiday - witness statements were made by people arousing suspicion. So, it might not be as clear cut as your suggesting!

[mike tesko]

David Payne interview continued:-


1485 "Rather than say from four till five if you say a couple of hours, you know, that will probably help me to build a picture.'

 Reply "Yes, yes.'

1485 "Of you know the chronologic in your day really.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "So the period of time was a couple of hours from arriving to going up to the Millennium''

 Reply "Err I'd have said something around two to three hours.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Probably, roughly.'

00:48:19 1485 "And you all went up as a group''

 Reply "Err again, as far as I can remember we were all there, you know, it just seemed like the first, as I say as far as I can remember it was the Saturday evening we all went up there err you know you want to explore as well, you know this was one of the places that we'd been told you know err would, whether there was a reception there you know and we'd been advised to go there that night you know, again I can't remember if that was on the information advice but that's what we, you know decided on, and err you know just to see what it was like up there and you know you want to explore what the rest of the place is like. You know you're already thinking you know where are you gonna eat, perhaps on other nights and err things like that, err so we went up there you know as far as I can remember that night and with the, with the whole group.'

1485 "Okay. How long do you think you stayed up there' Again, no, doesn't have to be times but more sort of time spans.'

 Reply "Err I thought we were there, you know a good couple of hours, it certainly felt, you know, err around that time span.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "Err, yeah just working out you know where we're gonna eat and sit, sit down there and you know think there wasn't gonna be too many people there right at the beginning err eating in the Millennium, and err you know its like where are the high chairs its all new err get them sit down then you're all having a good chat you know you met up and err certainly you know two hours or maybe longer.'

00:49:54 1485 "Mm, and when you finally left did everybody leave as a group' Or did you leave in dribs and drabs''

 Reply "I haven't a clue, I really can't recall.'

1485 "Did you go anywhere else that night''

 Reply "Err I don't think we did no, I don't think so.'

1485 "You didn't go back to the Tapas bar''

 Reply "No.'

1485 "The first night.'

 Reply "No.'

1485 "Okay, and during, I know you say generally speaking you were all chatting and excited about the holiday, but is there anything that stands out in your mind that you'd spoke about on that first day''

 Reply "Err, I mean, you know the fact, I think the fact that we were upstairs was you know, you know going back to my slightly embarrassing side of you know moaning so much about being together and everything and we'd ended up being put up, upstairs you know err so it you know it just felt like, you know whether I'd been opening my mouth too much and they put us you know above everyone else and whether that was perceived as any difference to the other apartments in terms of you know was it better to have a balcony upstairs and, you know.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "Slightly better view looking across at the sea or whatever you know...'

1485 "The rivalry crept in did it''

 00:51:18 Reply "Well not that anyone said that or anything but you just, you know again you don't want to be, err whether they were placating us just to make, you know because I'd moaned so much.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "But a, but apart from that I think you know everyone had err settled in err pretty much err we could well have had a beer in the apartment you know earlier on in the day again and you know just, I can't remember you know exactly, but you know everyone was relatively happy and unscathed.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "I think when you're err commuting with children, flying and airports they all get very tired and grumpy and I think we all, were all quite unscathed err and we were just looking forward to the week ahead and you know what activities we were gonna do, so there was nothing really that stood out at all, no.'

1485 "Okay. Did anybody comment about the listening service that night, the first night''

 Reply "Comment' Not that I'm aware of, not that I'm aware of. Err yeah I say you know it's a, you know it's a reasonably sized group, you've got quite a lot of high chairs intermingled you know so it kind of splits the group up a bit and you know so if anyone else had that conversation then perhaps but it's certainly something that I don't recall. You know there certainly wasn't you know any, I don't think, there wasn't certainly err a feeling of oh crikey this isn't, err you know this is, this is not a safe place, you know as a, you know a small community you know we may have commented it's different to err previous Mark Warner's, whether that was that night or whether that was another night in that you know it wasn't, you know what we'd all been on a Mark Warner before, you know we were all perhaps quite, it wasn't quite as obvious you know as we thought that it wouldn't be, you know like the other places, quite as self contained but there wasn't still a feeling of err concern you know, we were, you know we were all, we were still very enthusiastic about err the holiday. I mean that wasn't you know generally, you know if there's something which is a miss, out of place then these things tend to get, you know mooted around the group so it wasn't something that was you know really chatted at any great length if it was discussed at all.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:53:53 Reply "I think the only thing that probably became apparent about the Millennium where we ate was that that was a distance away from where we were staying and in terms of you know the logistics of getting from where we were to there with the small children and you know the pushchairs when some of them were perhaps a little bit old to go in the pushchair and wanted to walk, which it was just a little bit too far for them to walk. There was the, you know, the main, there's a main road that you had to cross over which, well it wasn't busy busy but you know, so that was, you know if there's any discussion I'd have said that was probably the most you know err that might have been said that night.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "But I mean again, that doesn't stand out majorly in my mind.'

1485 "Yeah, okay. So the night ended, you've gone back to your apartments.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Anybody back to each other's apartments or was it just general''

 Reply "(Sigh) err I'm, I'm, sorry I can't, I just can't recall.'

1485 "Okay, well did anybody come back to your apartment on the first night''

 Reply "Err you know, they could have done, but I can't, I can't recall at all.'

1485 "Okay. I forgot to ask you, could you see the Tapas bar from your balcony''

 Reply "You, you can yes, I mean there's a, there's a screen which is in the way err you know for a direct vision so if you were going from, from looking out from our apartment, you know you have the, obviously the gardens of the people's apartments directly below us, then you had the alley way, then you had a bit of land, then you had the swimming pool, then a bit more land then you had the Tapas bar.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "But in between the pool and the Tapas bar there was some screening but you know it wasn't to the stage that you couldn't see through the screening. Err but to the degree of could you see who was exactly in the Tapas bar and where they were sat, it wasn't that easy you know to make that out but you could see the Tapas area.'

00:56:03 1485 "Yeah, I mean as the crow flies, how far do you think it was from your balcony to the Tapas bar''
 Reply "Err I would have said about, about thirty metres.'

1485 "And how long would it take you to walk''

 Reply "To walk down.'

1485 "From your apartment to the Tapas''

 Reply "Okay, so I mean you, the majority was you know, you'd go down the stairs, you'd go round err through the car park, turn right, right down the road and go in through the main entrance, so you're looking at a couple of minutes you know walk.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "Err from leaving the door to arriving at the Tapas bar err you know there, there's a way you could go slightly around the side but I, you know, again in terms of time to get in, get in to the Tapas bar I don't think it made a great deal of err difference.'

1485 "Okay. So let's move on to the next day, your first full day which is the Sunday.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Tell me as much as you can.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

 1485 "From the time you got up till the time you went to bed.'

 00:57:18 Reply "I think err from my point of view, you know I find it very difficult to recall the exact events you know err you know on a day to day err basis. You know I find it easier just to say generally what happened you know during the week than''

 1485 "Well the first day you would have sorted out your activities wouldn't you''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "So if that helps you''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "To at least get the first day out the way.'

 Reply "Yeah, err you know we, I mean the one thing that we, me and Fiona were quite keen on would be to err you know there was, on the water sports err side of things. Err we were keen to put the kids into the creche you know for the morning, err you know we were gonna look, you know the, ours tended to sleep during the afternoon so err you know on the, again we'd have perhaps gone down to the water, you know the water sports area just to you know maybe to sign up for courses there, err as I say we were just generally interested in trying to err windsurf and perhaps go on the dinghies. Err other members of the group were really interested in you know the tennis side of things and getting the lessons but I'm really sorry I can't remember exactly.'
00:58:37 1485 "Where did you breakfast on the first day''

 Reply "Err I mean we could you know obviously there's the Supermarket, which wasn't too err far away, did we all go up, I'm trying to think whether we went to the Millennium for the breakfast or whether we went to the Supermarket on the first day. I can't remember, I'm sorry.'
 Reply "Okay, and you mentioned your creches.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Did you take your''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "What time would you have taken them to the creche''
P
 Reply "I mean well Lily and err Scarlet you know, being the different age groups, were in different places and err Scarlet was down by the err the actual reception at the Ocean Club and err Scarlet, err Lily was up at the err Tapas bar. Err so generally Fi would take Scarlet after breakfast err which we you know we did often have. Again you know we stayed on for four weeks unfortunately after and you know we had breakfast in the apartment and it just blurs.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "One into the other, whether you know we were at the Millennium but I seem to remember that we would generally go to the Millennium. There was one morning I can recollect that err you know that Kate and Gerry were walking back and found it difficult because Sean and Amelie were, as I say, in the age where they wanted to walk but it was difficult to get them and I think they were, you know generally thinking that the Millennium for breakfast wasn't probably a particularly a good idea, which you know I think more often than not we generally ate at the Millennium, err and then after we'd eaten breakfast there which, and again I think finished at nine o' clock, we would then, you know after we'd finished breakfast try and get them down to err you know drop them off at the Ocean Club or at the creche by the Tapas, then you know depending on whether there was anything going on that morning from the sporting point of view then you know we'd go wherever. Err you know mixed into the melee was you know we often went in the morning to the Supermarket to do a bit of a shop and you know with a big group that we seemed to get through things pretty quickly and err so as I say I'm afraid one day does blur into another, I can't really recall specifics.'

01:01:02 1485 "Okay. I understand that your apartment was like the meeting place.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Can you recall that''

 Reply "Yes, definitely. Err you know, I, I, it just happened you know the way it happened you know people just gravitated up to err to our room err you know it's, I suppose some part we'd got Dianne there who is fantastic at you know helping, you know it's a free set of hands whereas you know Russ and Jane obviously they've got two, and we've got two and so you know it was good that we've got someone extra to help out while you know someone's preparing the food, keep an eye on the children, err so often you know we would, you know we'd con, congregate there at lunch time and quite often if I remember Matt and Rachael would bring Grace along and you know we'd eat there together. Err a lot of the time we didn't tend to see you know Kate and Gerry you know it was more Russell and Jane primarily I remember, and sometimes Matt and Rachael and Grace but generally err Kate and Gerry would do their own thing err you know during the day, so that's, but they you know they would still come up you know from time to time. So it was well used at the, that first floor.'

01:02:26 1485 "Was it, I notice you say that you didn't see much of Kate and Gerry and you that sparsely see Russell and, was it something that you discussed before the holiday that you was gonna all do your own thing in the day then just meet up for night time''

Reply "Err no, no it was just one of these things that you know naturally happened err I think the children, you do whatever is the easiest and you know you fall into a pattern and it just seemed, you know whenever you wanted to put your kids down or whenever they were tired or you know as I say ours slept in the afternoon but I'm, you know for example I know that Sean and Amelie didn't you know tend to have sleeps err you know and Madeleine, during the day. So you know they, yeah their time was pretty occupied right from first thing in the morning till''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "You know when they went to bed, whereas for us we had that kind of period of time where we had to be up in our room, you know to get them off to bed after and so we would, that's why we were generally at that spot at the same time, whereas you know err whatever routine that Kate and Gerry fell into they fell into it for, you know to fit around the way that they constructed their day, err as, you know I say they, you know they were keen on the tennis side of it so that was something that they were doing err so it's all, you know, to'ing and fro'ing, perhaps you know like Dianne one day would have a lesson, then one day err you know Jane would perhaps err play and stay with Matt and Rachael err Matt was quite keen on the water sports and Russell so perhaps some days they'd go down so it's all very dynamic err situation. But err you know I, I suppose the other thing is you know Lily and Ella you know they've grown up from very little together so it was always nice for them to, to, you know to join up together and whether that was''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "You know its quite subconscious things as well, they like meeting up, err during the mornings Ella you know was slightly older than Lily so she'd go to the err Ocean Club and err yeah so Lily didn't see Ella so you know she perhaps, you know come up at that stage you know, so.'

01:04:52 1485 "So your days generally speaking were taken up by doing your own activities.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "And taking your children to activities then doing your water sports.'

 Reply "That's it.'

1485 "Eating and them having a sleep.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Would that be the generally, I'm not gonna go through day to day''

 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "Because you''

 Reply "I can't.'

 1485 "I get the picture what you're saying is''

 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "I can understand that.'

 Reply "Yeah, I mean you know some days we'd perhaps go, you know as I say it wasn't the same everyday and we'd perhaps go down to the beach you know we'd take you know go down to the beach or perhaps we'd do some water sports down there and then err Fiona would perhaps bring the kids along and we'd, you know we'd play with them on the beach and then we'd, you know we'd have something to eat err down in the restaurant at the err which looked over the beach. So, but you know large, by and large there wasn't a great deal of variety, we didn't say oh we'd try eating there another night or we'll do this on err you know another night. I think you know when we ate at the Millennium on the first night we you know we'd give them, what I said before, the it's a bit away and everything and, and I can't remember whose idea it was but you know well we thought the Tapas bar, that's much better why don't we try and err book there. Err I think, I think it was Rachael, she's very organised and err you know whether she just booked for the first night at the Tapas and then decided that she's gonna book for subsequent nights err at the err not the main reception but the reception leading into the Tapas area, the Paul with I think the lady's Sylvia, and so she booked the err you know from early in the morning because I think they had to get in early to make sure that you know they could guarantee, there's only so many people who could eat there.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 01:06:38 Reply "And we just thought it was much better to eat there, it was much more convenient and err you know there wasn't the, you know you had to walk away and it just, you know seemed a much better idea doing that really but you know generally we just fell into the pattern on the whole but a slight variation of where we ate but not a great deal.'

1485 "Mm, so for the rest of the week did you, the first night was the Millennium.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "For the rest of the week did you then eat at the Tapas every night''

 Reply "Yes, yes. I think, yes I think you know for me, Fiona and Dianne you know we, fortunately for us, managed to be there you know every night, usually most nights there was somebody who'd been, or a child who'd been ill and you know their parents would you know stay to look after the child or you know if they'd been unwell themselves you know and didn't, didn't want to come out so, but we you know, we were there every night.'

[mike tesko]

David Payne interview continued..


1485 "Yeah. So that, it's okay, so that first night then at the Tapas, that was obviously when this relaying came to notice where everyone was checking their children. Can you tell me about that''

 Reply "Yeah, err it's, it's funny in that you know you, when you're with a group of people and you're sat at a table, you don't, you know you're not always aware of you know, if it was four people sat at a table and someone goes its much more obvious you know that they've gone err and given the fact that we were slightly different in the way that you know we had the monitoring service, that, I didn't quite pay attention to what everyone else was doing but they were very, you know by the conversation you know who was going, you know they were very, the other groups were very strict in the timing that they would go. Err you know the, you know the certain, you know from what I can remember there wasn't anything longer than thirty minutes you know in between one of the couples looking after their own, and again this is only from chatting to people, not from my own recollections.'

1485 "Right.'

 01:08:48 Reply "Is that they all looked after their own children, they all went to look on their own children from each of the nights but you know I was just, you know slightly oblivious to this because we'd set up ours and you know I know everyone went at some stage.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err as I say you know err one night you know Matt wasn't very well and you know wasn't there, err and you know so there were some nights where you, you realised at the table that someone was, you know was missing for the full event of the evening and then you'd perhaps see someone might go, so most of the time you know people would, you know from the group someone would go at a regular interval, and you know all I can say was you know people were very strict about this and it was something that they you know, it wasn't like ah shall we go now, you know now we've, nah they'll be fine, it wasn't you know everyone was very strict and it comes back to the, you know the Mark Warner, we were just trying to replicate what they, you know as a policy which they've adapted you know at their sights across Europe.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And we thought well okay if they're not gonna do that we'll, you know this is what we do, it's not, not far away err so and everyone adhered, you know looked after their own children and did it very regularly. But I couldn't say on this night this person went.'

01:10:12 1485 "Right, I'm gonna ask you that, I'm gonna ask you to try and think now, see if you can see it in your head now any occasions where you noticed say Matt had gone and then you noticed when Jane had gone, try and see it in your head and try and, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the, I'm only interested at this moment up until Wednesday.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Try and remember whether you saw specifically anything going on.'

 Reply "Mm yeah, err I mean as I say I know, or, I, the big problems with err Matt he'd been unwell one night and Grace had been poorly and I think and Evie so there'd been some, you know there'd been concerns from that point of view and err so perhaps one of those, you know the adults out of the people I just mentioned would be you know away from the table but specifically who went back to look on what night and who went you know there's no chance that I remember.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "I've, I thought about this but I can't, can't recall.'

1485 "Yeah. Do you recollect, I'm just trying to pick at a loose end, but could you see your own apartment from where you were sat''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "And did you sit in the same seat virtually every evening''

 Reply "Err wasn't the same seat every evening, err but I tended to sit more round one side of the table than, than the others which, you know I generally, you know if I tried to paint a picture that I was in a prime seat so I could look into my apartment every night then that wouldn't be truthful.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "But err but just by where I did sit I generally could see in that direction.'

01:12:00 1485 "Right, okay. Is there anything at all that you can think might be useful leading up to Thursday, in the evenings, that you can remember now''

 Reply "Err''

1485 "And conversation' Because I understand it was cold, rainy on a couple of days.'

 Reply "Mm, mm, yes. I mean from the, you know from the, yeah it was quite cold some nights and you know perhaps nearly too cold to be sat outside err but there was certainly nothing that you know led me to any concern during that week err you know it was, you know we were all quite happy with, I say, what we were doing and err where, you know the way that we'd tackle things, it was err you know there's nothing that in my mind worried me.'

1485 "Okay, and again going back to the daytime, in amongst your activities, because your activities, Fiona's activities in relation to the other group's activities, is there anything that stands out''

 Reply "Err''

1485 "The beach''

 Reply "No, I mean we sometimes we'd, you know on the beach we'd see the Mark Warner you know see our children down there and sometimes it was you know err you'd see them playing there which was a little bit difficult because you know you didn't want them to see you because it'd be hard on them. I often went down with Fiona, as I say we were err you know interested in the water sports side of things err and err Matt and Russell sometimes went you know they, Matt's very good on the err catamaran and I know that Russell and Matt sometimes did that. Err and I say Kate and Gerry took, I don't they're particularly water sports err people, err so they, you know they weren't interested in that side of it but you know, there was nothing really that sprung to my attention that worried me.'

01:14:27 1485 "What about, again I'm bitting and bobbing here, I'm trying to jog your memory.'

 Reply "Yes I know.'

1485 "Which, you know.'

 Reply "Not easy.'

1485 "When you go to dinner in the Tapas what sort of time in the evening would you go''

 Reply "Err I think it was a bit of a standing joke that we were always the last there err you know we tended to, you know we were getting later and later I think as the week went on, err you know the table I think was generally booked from about half past eight and people would arrive anything from perhaps eight o' clock, but generally we were on the, after you know just after half past eight I'd say, you know rather than on the good side of half past eight. So you know, and err there was usually a comment when we arrived.'

1485 "What, like here they are or something''

 Reply "Here they are again, yes, kind of so err yeah obviously on, on the you know if you wanted to go onto the, the night Madeleine disappeared.'

1485 "Yeah, not yet.'

 Reply "We'll do that, yeah.'

1485 "Yeah.'

01:15:33 1485 "Okay, err so you know there's, yeah there's, yeah, you know, you know we chatted about it, you know the quiz night and who was there err you know I know there was the odd couple here and there on certain, different nights err I remember one night, I think it was the quiz night, there was the err the instructor who does the err pilates and the aerobics and you know was chatting with her one night err but again you know my, as for observation of what was else going around me wasn't particularly great. Err you know Wednesday night we stayed a bit later that night err you know we, we had a drink in the bar after which was the only night that we, you know we did that, but apart from that there's nothing else.'

1485 "When you got down to dinner most evenings, was everybody there bar yourselves, were you always the last ones''

 Reply "Err generally we were always the last there unless you know there'd been any illnesses or you know someone arrived later but as far as I remember we were always usually pretty much the last there.'

1485 "Yeah. Why were you late''

 Reply "Err we're rubbish' I don't know, err I think you know we, I think we, we are renowned for that, err its probably me but you know we just, in terms of efficiency of getting the kids down and you know make sure everyone's ready in time we're just a bit poor at doing that.'

01:17:12 1485 "And when you leave would you, how would you sort the children out''

 Reply "Yeah, I mean most nights I say we would err they would be asleep before we left. There was one night where we were quite late and they wouldn't go down and I said oh I'll stay up and you know I'll keep an eye on them and wait till they've gone to sleep and then I'll, I'll come down. Err you know and again, you know I say Fi could hear the monitor quite clearly err that night and again, just another reassuring that we had that monitor. Err but yeah, apart from that I can't, so yeah perhaps it was slightly more difficult with the two, you know our two, getting them off to sleep err you know Scarlet was err you know the youngest there so she wasn't quite into a good pattern like the others so you know it perhaps takes a little bit longer from that point of view, but err I was just rubbish.'

1485 "Would the children always be asleep then by the time you'd left''

 Reply "Yeah, yeah. Yeah we'd certainly leave when they were asleep and I say or if they weren't then I'd, I'd you know at that time of the night I can remember that Lily was awake and wait until she'd gone. Err but by and large I can't remember any nights when they weren't asleep when we went down.'

1485 "And what sort of time would you generally put them to sleep''

 Reply "Err I mean we would, so they, I mean they had the you know if they ate at the err kids club you know and again it's just difficult what happened after, you know for the weeks after because we ate at the kids club then, did we eat before, how often did we eat, ours were a bit fussy on the eating and from what I can remember sometimes we ate you know in the, in the room, but that could've been mixed up with my recollections of you know what we did after. Err but that was generally around five, five thirty so we wouldn't certainly get back to the room till six, we often went to the play area you know that seemed to be quite another time of the day where we, you know most people would be there and the children were there err you know played, sometimes you know there was a social tennis bit in the evening err certainly we tended to watch a little bit of that if we hadn't played, you know, ourselves and then from err from there you know say right okay it's time to go up, so perhaps you go up around six thirty, seven o' clock, then they'd have you know the, most nights we liked to give ours baths because you know we just felt that we liked to get them into as much of a routine in a strange environment as possible. Err you know so probably we're looking at trying to get them down about seven thirty, somewhere around there.'

01:20:00 1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err then started getting ready, which is usually say pretty last minute and then rush to get ready and then you know as soon as the three of us were ready then right let's go down err perhaps the other thing was the logistics of like three people getting ready in one bathroom you know you have to wait longer, whereas the others were just two people.'

1485 "Yeah. So generally as a rule when you were ready to go, how would you leave the apartment''

 Reply "Okay, so the, you know obviously the, err the bal, err the sliding doors and the balcony were always err shut err you know the monitor was always put in the position that we've err you know mentioned, which is you know on the floor between the two doors. Err and Fi would, you know, generally look after the monitor err the mobile unit and err and again as far as I can recall Dianne tended to be the most reliable to look after the key. Err and then you know so the door would be locked err you know you wouldn't be able to get in that door from the outside, in terms of the doors in the children's bedroom we left them slightly ajar you know just again so we could hear them err the eldest, Lily's always been used to the door being slightly open so you know if we'd have shut it she didn't particularly like that so those doors were open. Err the shutters, yeah they, they, I can only ever remember them being down but you know obviously we spoke about this since and you know if we say perhaps during the day to let a bit of light in the room the shutters were err you know moved up, but on the whole the shutters were down err when we left. Err you know the television you know was switched off and you know there was nothing else really unique I don't think about how we left the apartment.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 01:22:03 Reply "Err I can't, you know there's one, you know right at the beginning I'd had the key and I'd misplaced it in my pockets or somewhere and that was the moment that Dianne took it on herself that she was gonna be, you know Dianne's extremely good that way and probably being a mother of three very organised and so she was, you know, err then we'd go off down to the Tapas bar or you know usually the three of us together.'

1485 "Yeah. Would you have passed anybody on the way''

 Reply "Err''

1485 "Up until Thursday.'

 Reply "Up until Thursday, again you know we could well have had a conversation either with you know err Matt and Rachael or Russ and Jane you know or if their doors were open or we'd give them a knock you know and say we're going over but again generally we were the last there but there may have been times that we just you know knocked on them just to see whether they were coming over or meet you over there but again I can't remember.'

1485 "And what about on the actual route down to the Tapas, would you have passed any other group then''
 Reply "Err not really because, unless someone was coming back from''

1485 "Yeah that's what I mean.'

 Reply "Err again you know I can't remember apart from on the night you know people passing by or you know specifically.'

01:23:21 1485 "Okay. Just a general question about the resort, what was it like' Was it busy' Or you know, was there a lot of people in your, in the Ocean Club' The resort in general, was it busy''

 Reply "It did, it didn't seem busy err at all err it, you know it seemed very quiet. The, and you know, if that wasn't the first week you could book it was certainly the second week so it certainly hadn't err had many people there, you know chatting to Mark Warner staff they'd not been long err you know many weeks out there preparing and you know they, so easy for them I think with the number of children that they had because it wasn't you know anywhere near capacity err for them. If you err its you know a beautiful place, beautiful beach and you know and you expect the place is usually a lot busier than that and it you know but it certainly seemed very quiet for that time of, well not, sorry, not for that time of year but just seemed very quiet but not, you know it was understandable for that time of the year. Err you know err the err the pool area you would never see a great number of people by, by the pool, you know the water was actually quite cold, you had to be quite brave to go in the pool. You know the Tapas area itself during the daytime certainly you'd perhaps see the odd people from time to time, err but it wasn't, it certainly wasn't full by, you know, any capacity. Err you know and the eating in the Millennium the first night, I say I can't recall hardly any other people being there and when we had been eating in the Tapas bar there wasn't many couples in the evening you know so the general reflection for the whole time was err there wasn't that many people. Err you know there was some other couples that err Kate and Gerry had you know made friends with through the err tennis you know that we got to know a little bit as well and you know you generally tend to see the same people err but yeah it was very quiet err you know it was quite windy err you know which wasn't surprising as I say already it had been quite cold in the evening but err so that's really my''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Recollections of what the place, how the place came across but.'

01:25:47 1485 "I think one of you commented on err England being warm while you were over there.'
 Reply "Was it' Probably.'

1485 "Can you remember that''

 Reply "Err probably.'

1485 "Just have a quick check of the time. We're gonna go for a break shortly.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Alright''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "I've just gotta check, make sure I haven't missed anything.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "In this first interview and then we'll close the interview and get you drink, alright''

 Reply "Okay, that's brilliant, thank you.'

1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'

 Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them, more, you know if I, if it was at home and perhaps one of the children wasn't settling you know I'd go upstairs and go well you know could you be quiet but there I didn't feel quite comfortable doing that, it just, you know if the child was crying or upset and not sleeping I think the first person you know at that stage probably''

1485 "Yeah. Okay at this stage I've got no further questions, as I say with how, how its constructed in phases, lead you up to you know, I'm conscious I've led you up to the third of May.'

 Reply "Right.'

1485 "Is there anything, think hard, is there anything that we've discussed or we haven't discussed that you feel you ought to bring to my attention now''

 Reply "Err you know I suppose the only thing to reinforce is that you know at this stage you know we were having a very good week, you know apart from the odd illness here and there, there was just nothing upsetting the group, there was no unusual behaviour, there was nothing that was untoward about anybody there, err certainly Kate and Gerry were you know very happy, interacting well and the children were extremely happy.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 01:28:39 Reply "And you know we'd fallen, as I say we did vary things slightly but we'd all fall in to pretty much you know a reasonable pattern, framework of doing things and err you know everyone was enjoying themselves.'

1485 "Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren't happy with''

 Reply "Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who'd been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn't you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they'd had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.'

1485 "Mm.'

 Reply "Err but apart from that err there was nothing else that really you know springs to mind.'

 1485 "Okay. That's it for the time being.'

 Reply "Okay.'

1485 "I'll check, once we've done this interview, I'll check with my colleagues to see whether I've missed anything during this interview, alright''

 Reply "That's great.'

1485 "But in the meantime I'll stop this interview now and it's coming up to, it's eleven fifty four.'

 01:30:31 The interview ceased at 1154 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.

 SIGNATURE (Sgd)
 SLS

[mike tesko]

David Payne interview continued...


RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No IM24A
 Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 48
 Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
 Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
 Time Commenced: 1319 hours
 Time Concluded: 1459 hours Duration of Interview: 100 minutes
 Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
 Other Persons Present None
 
 Tape counter times Person speaking Text
 
 
 00:00:03 1485 "Okay the video is now recording again.'

 Reply "Okay.'

1485 "We'll continue with the interview on Friday the eleventh of April two thousand eight at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters. I make the time by my watch thirteen nineteen on that day, I'm DC Ivor MESSIAH and I'm a Detective within the Major Crime Team in Leicestershire Police. Could you tell me who you are please''

 Reply "I'm David PAYNE.'

1485 "Okay, that should suffice for the time being. Just to continue the introductions, you're here in relation to assist Leicestershire Police as a witness into the disappearance of Madeleine MCCANN in Portugal on the third of May two thousand and seven. Is that alright''

 Reply "That's correct.'

1485 "And we've already had a first interview and what we discussed in the first interview was in some depth really wasn't it, the time that you left, or your planning of the holiday, your flight out, you know your subsequent arrival in Portugal and then we tried as best we could to go through your days from the Saturday till Thursday.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Alright, what I now want you to concentrate on David is the important day really, Thursday the third of May. I want you to try and put yourself back in to that, it may help you if you think of the time when the alarm was raised, that may well bring you back to the beginning of the day and try and remember as much as you can, the time you got up, I know that you said on the first interviews that you couldn't remember an awful lot but try as best you can to remember from say midday onwards.'

00:01:48 Reply "Mm yeah, err on that particular day err me and Fiona had you know gone down to the beach, we err took the dinghies out err as usual we went, you know we had the kids, err we had lunch err in the apartment. Err that afternoon I wanted to go down err to the Ocean, err to the beach and err you know windsurf err Matt and Russell had gone down there, they were, had taken the catamaran out. So I went down there err while Fiona and Dianne were looking after the girls in our apartment. Err I was down err windsurfing, I must have been windsurfing for a couple of hours, err saw Matt and Russ out on err the catamaran and then after we finished there we you know we met on the beach, played with the girls on the beach and then we went to the err the restaurant which is on the err overlooking the beach and you know we had err the evening meal there. Err after we had the meal we got some ice cream and then err we decided that we were gonna go up and play tennis so I left err with err Russell, we left the, err the girls at the restaurant and we went up to the, err back up to the Ocean Club. Err I, as I say I'm not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in.

So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner.

Err so we played some tennis and you know we were having a good knock and then it was getting a bit late so err we, you know we left the tennis courts, went back to our respective partners to get ready to go out, you know it was, it was, you know certainly after half past seven that we'd, you know we'd left the courts, perhaps even a bit later than that. Err when I got back err I think because Fiona had done a lot of babysitting and left me playing tennis she said well I'm gonna go for a very quick run so she went for a run on the beach, you know, err got the kids ready, bathed, got them ready for err to go to bed but again you know as we'd got back late err from the tennis courts you know the whole time err for that evening was not, you know later. And then we just got ready to go and by the time Fi had got back from the run we'd all had showers, we were all ready to go and the girls were asleep and we were happy to leave the apartment, it was you know it was sort of gone quarter to nine. Err we walked down, the three of us, err you know to the Tapas area err we bumped into Matt, he was walking err back to the apartment and err you know he was, he was, you know semi-jokingly said oh I've come to check because you've taken so long and you know which actually transpired that they were quite err getting agitated because you know the time the table was booked at half past eight and you know it was approaching nine o' clock and you know they thought it was, it wasn't appropriate that we weren't there you know as early as we should have been. So then Matt carried err back, you know, to the apartment and we went to the table. Err when we sat, sat down I err sat next to Gerry and err you know of course the next few minutes just started chatting to Gerry and you know I said to him you know this is you know has been one of the best days I've had in a long time you know and we were just chatting about what we'd done and he was reciprocating just saying you know what, what a fantastic day they'd had, what a fantastic week it was and you know just a general consensus was that you know it was just a fantastic time. Err again I was aware that err you know that other people were leaving the table, err I know that err the, err between Russell and Jane they were leaving the table err to look after Evie.

It transpired that at some stage she'd been unwell and err Evie, sorry then Russ, so Russell was basically, was missing the part of the main course and then Jane went you know and ate hers and then disappeared off to take over so we all you know I think made the same joke that Jane said oh I've gone to relieve you know Russell and you know that's, and then you know I remember the other people that night you know again it's in part of the things that we discussed after but you know I was sort of aware as well that there was, rather than all just checking on their own they were just cross-checking as well but still you know very err frequently. Err and then you know it got to obviously when Kate, Kate left, I hadn't realised that she'd, you know, left the table again just busy chatting, then Kate came back just after ten o' clock, you know absolutely distraught err you know just, you know her face I'll never forget. It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate, I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can't remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she'd got there to see who'd left err doors open or etcetera. And from my point of view you know the things that were, I think it was really pertinent to me was that there was two, there was two gates on the back entrance from that apartment. There's the gate which is immediately bring, you know brings you on to the err the road and then there was another child gate, that was at the top and I, you know, and given the fact that the front door was shut I was just saying well what was the state of those two gates, were those gates open when you went up or were they shut, and she was adamant that those two gates were shut. Well you know there was two possibilities, she'd either been taken or she'd wandered off, no child is gonna wander off and shut two gates behind them so at that moment I knew, although I didn't want to believe it, but I knew that she'd been abducted. Then you know obviously pretty much I think, you know, people that pretty much the same as me you know it's a shock, you know ah because you're, you know, you're still not wanting to believe what, what the obvious is and you know so we, you know we, we went, you know went to the apartment err you know and I didn't actually enter too much into the room but I walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins were in their cots, err they were in you know parallel, there was you know I could see, you know I think they were much further into the room but you know I could see Madeleine's bed and then you know it was just like all hell broke loose. You know we, you know we didn't know what to do, we went running around you know err the safety of my own you know children, you know I started, you wanted to check that your own two are alright so I, some say I ran up to our apartment and checked they were alright. Dianne had err had said, Fiona had asked Dianne to stay at the table, at the Tapas just in case err you know Madeleine wandered by or you know and thought that was the best place and I say at some stage I went back and asked Dianne to just, could you go and stay with the children. I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club, then met up with Matt and err Russell and you know I remember saying right what, you know, what we gonna do and Matt was saying right we've gotta try and be you know systematic here err you know, right if you, you want to go off in that area and I'll go down to the Ocean Club reception and you know ask them to call the Police and so you know I, I started venturing up towards the err Millennium where we'd eaten and it was just so quiet and there was nothing going on that way and I just thought oh you know, and I again I was just building up hope that she'd ran off err you know I actually went on a search and I went down past the Supermarket, I went down towards the err seafront, you know went along the whole length of the err beach looking under you know err beach huts and etcetera, just you know and shouting Madeleine, any people that we saw we explained, but also in the melee there was err other people err sorry going back to the apartment so was popping in just to you know, to see what's happening, had the Police arrived err you know just to see who was, you know, thinking that some, you know, body would take charge of the situation and err Mark Warner staff had err grouped together and they were err you know trying to help the situation. Err one of the Mark Warner err ladies was staying with, in the apartment with err with Kate, you know Fiona stayed there, there was people you know popping in and out. There was a lady I think who I believe she came from the flat who ended up, you know, coming in towards their apartment as offering help and you know the next recollection really is that you know the Police, there was two Policemen who err arrived who I believe were from the GNR, err you know it felt you know quite some time before they got there, err I think there was a language barrier, the err one of the receptionists from the Tapas area, Sylvia, she was trying, actually no it wasn't Sylvia, it was the lady, one of the ladies who we, you know, I can't remember her name, who was trying to communicate you know between us and we were trying to convey that she's been abducted and we, we got a computer err printer, we'd got a picture of Madeleine so that it could be distributed as quickly as possible. We were trying to impress the importance to the, to the err two Policemen err that you know that she'd been abducted, that you need to close off all the roads and that you know, that this is an abduction and you know at that was basically the sequence of events up to that stage. Err we then you know, did some more searching, went around, you know, Mark Warner staff, went to different areas just, I didn't know whether she'd ran off and, you know obviously nothing, you know nothing transpired and then as time lapsed then there was some Police from err Portim' arrived, two plain clothed Police, there was some other Police in the background, whether they were from Portugal I don't know, you know they were just hanging back and then err the two Portuguese err Detectives wanted to you know have time with Kate and Gerry and just specifically question them. Err you know I made err a phone call at some stage in the evening to err Fiona's dad back in the UK who I've got a lot of respect for and has given me very, a lot of very good advice because you know you certainly would never have believe that you will find yourself in a situation err like this and you know there was very able people who were there, you know. Everybody who was out there you know was very responsible and people that I would turn to but under the circumstances I don't think anyone functions err particularly anywhere near a hundred percent and you know just looking to try and get some advice from someone outside the situation because you know we just didn't feel that we could get this message across to err to anybody that she had been abducted.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:17:28 Reply "Err so then you know the Police were with err you know Kate and Gerry, you know chatting to them and you know looking at the apartment, etcetera, and they, you know I felt that they had been probably around for about an hour and then Matt met up with err with Kate and Gerry after. Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach and in between all this you know Kate and Gerry were just breaking down you know just their behaviour was, you know was never questioned or did I ever think there was anything strange about you know their behaviour and how they would, they would act, you know in such a set of circumstances and you know Gerry's a very stoical person and you know, I think you know its the way that he's conducted himself over the past few months you know, and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning you know there was nothing else that you know that we could do. The Police had left err the twins had been, at this stage, moved into err into our apartment, and we made beds up on the floor for Kate and Gerry in our apartment and we must have, you know, err gone into bedrooms around about you know four, four thirty around that time. We err slept for a couple of hours, we woke up to find that you know Kate and Gerry had already been out looking you know err for Madeleine err and then we were obviously waiting for things to happen, you know, quite frustrated, and err you know and then certain people arrived outside again you know from, from the err Police and err at that stage err yeah I,

[mike tesko]

David Payne interview...


I was talking with Robert MURAT. He was err somebody that I would not a hundred percent say that I saw the night before but there was somebody who was also err who was translating for us that evening who I you know briefly chatted to, stood next to a Policeman, that I you know thought to be Robert MURAT but I would never say conclusively that that was Robert MURAT. And then but I just said I'm not, in my mind, I'm not dealing with him I'm getting much better with the other lady you know because they were just, you know pontificating around the area and I just wanted direct answers I didn't want someone just talking generally around the situation. And then err so there's me and Kate, we were just waiting outside seeing what was happening and err so then as I say Robert MURAT introduced himself, he said he was err you know somebody who's re, you know, was living out there, was originally from the UK, that he'd got a daughter who was a very similar age to Madeleine and that they looked very similar. He said that he'd been involved with something err you know major back, back home err I thought he said Norfolk but again I'm not a hundred percent sure on that, and you know at this stage, you know I, there was no, he was very over familiar and wanted to be helping the situation and that's all I would say, I wouldn't say any more than that. And then the err Police you know it transpired that they were going to interview us and you know so then we, we ended up going to the station. I was with Kate, err there was Gerry, err Matt, you know I can't be a hundred percent else, sure who was there, and you know so I always spent quite a lot of time with Kate during the hours of, of err Friday and again you know everything that she was like, you know, was someone whose daughter had been taken. You know we were, and he, we were sat outside err one of the rooms err where they had err like TV footage coming in from I don't know where, and there's a story coming back that there had been a sighting of Madeleine at one of the petrol stations err you know Kate was eager, you know wanted to know more about, you know where have you seen her you know.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:22:37 Reply "It was just''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "It was just, you know, there was, there just no, there was nothing that she did that I thought was unlike someone who had not had their child abducted and there was everything that I'd expect to be.'

1485 "The way she reacted''

 Reply "The way she reacted err you know obviously we were, we were interviewed that, that day and you know we had very little sleep, you know we were very tired, the interviews, and that's my real recollections of that.'

1485 "That period. Anything else''

 Reply "Err, with any specifics prompts or''

1485 "No, just making sure that you know''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "You've done, you've remembered everything you possibly can that's all.'

 Reply "Yeah. I'm sure if I chatted more to you I'd probably remember more.'

1485 "Well all I was gonna do is I was gonna go back to, I was gonna try and take you in stages through you know your recall just to see whether it could prompt anything else really, and what I want to try and do is go back to you know the Tapas bar really.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Sorry, further back than that I want to go back to the beach.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Because you said that you were on the beach, you was windsurfing.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "And you spotted Matt and Russell.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "On the catamaran.'

 Reply "Yes.'

 1485 "Something happened on the catamaran where Matt fell in.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Do you know about that''

 00:24:15 Reply "Yeah I mean that was a topic of conversation that we had at the table, you know, because Matt is the experienced sailor of the two of them and err Russell err you know hadn't done a great deal of sailing and catamarans are not particularly easy I understand err to sail and err Matt had gone overboard and Russell then had to get the catamaran back to pick him up so that was err you know a story of amusement at the table.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err I didn't actually see that happen you know.'

1485 "Right.'

 Reply "But you know I certainly saw them out there, err on the water.'

 1485 "Yeah, what sort of time, excuse me it's getting a warm in here, what sort of time was that that you saw them''

 Reply "You know I'd say, I'd say you know roughly around three o' clock but very roughly.'

1485 "Yeah very roughly.'

 Reply "Err you know I, generally our girls slept in the afternoon say between two and four and err so that'd be the time that I'd have gone out there and I was out there for a couple of hours you know err the, I've done a great deal of windsurfing and you know the conditions were very good.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err so as I say we were out there for a couple of, I was out there for a couple of hours.'

1485 "So the girls went to bed at, woke up about four, so you think it would have been after four that you'd have gone down to the beach then''

 00:25:34 Reply "Err well no because I mean like usually like while they were asleep it's a good time to do you know activities and you know someone could stay behind, look after the children so err Fiona, and I think Dianne, had both stayed behind and you know I said well I'll go get a, get a''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "A windsurf.'

1485 "Right. So did you walk down to the beach on your own then''

 Reply "Yes, as far as I remember I think Matt and Russ had gone, gone already, gone down before me.'

1485 "And did you see anybody on your way down''

 Reply "Err''

1485 "Your group or other''

 Reply "I can't remember.'

1485 "And when you got down to the beach was the beach busy''

 Reply "Err not, not horrendously, no. I mean there was some other windsurfers there err you know I remember when I was out windsurfing you know seeing other people windsurfing as well.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "But you know, again, it wasn't particularly busy.'

1485 "How long do you think you stayed out there for''

 Reply "I think I was probably out there the best part of a couple of hours.'

1485 "So we're saying around about six o' clock ish, would that be about right''

 Reply "Err well I mean we were probably, as I say, windsurfing I was windsurfing around two to four o' clock, then we had the girls come down so there was some playing on the beach.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Then we went for something to eat and then we left the err restaurant and err you know, I hadn't got a watch on me, I hadn't you know I hadn't got a mobile, all we had was the camera which you know as I say the time on that suggests that we left the restaurant err you know after six o' clock, so you know just working backwards''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "The time that I thought we'd finished you know''

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:27:23 Reply "Water sports would be around four o' clock, then a bit of time on the beach and then you know your meal, which would take an hour, which seems to fit in with the, you know the timescale of events.'

1485 "So who did you leave on the beach when you, when you walked up''

 Reply "When, when we left we didn't leave from the beach we left from the err restaurant.'

1485 "The restaurant, but who did you leave at the restaurant''

 Reply "Err the, basically the err the children and the ladies that stayed behind, err just to finish off there and err and then we, you know Fiona said to me we'd better get going if you're gonna miss all the, you know any activities err so we said right well we'll go, we'll get up there and you know play tennis.'

1485 "Yeah, when you say the ladies, that was Fiona and''

 Reply "Yeah, Jane and Rachael, yeah.'

1485 "Right, and the respective children''

 Reply "Yes, yes.'

1485 "Okay, and who did you walk back to the Ocean Club with''

 Reply "Err there was Russell and Matt. As I say I can't, can't remember what hap, whether they went, we peeled off and they carried up to the apartment and I said oh I'll just go down to the tennis, you know, I can't remember exactly what happened at that stage, but I know I went and spoke to Gerry.'

1485 "So on your way back what route would you take on the way back' There's a map for this one.'

 Reply "Yeah, we''

00:28:40 1485 "Unfortunately the map doesn't show the beach, it'll show the proximity going back to the apartment block. Which way is the beach' If you imagine, or if you look at, that's, there's the Tapas.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "So that would have been Kate and Gerry's apartment.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

 1485 "So you'd walk round there from your Tapas, so which way would the beach be''

 Reply "Okay, so, sorry that's the, is this the Tapas here''

1485 "That's the Tapas yeah.'

 Reply "Yeah, so our apartments would be about here so err you know we went, crikey, the Ocean Club is there I presume, does that say Ocean Club' Yeah.'

1485 "The Ocean Club garden.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "I think that's the Ocean Club in general.'

 Reply "Yeah the main reception part sorry, so we, we would walk past here, this is the Supermarket I presume, here.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "You'd walk past that way. There's err you know we'd go along past the err Ocean reception down and then there was a road which kind of like quite a steep road which had err there was a small Supermarket there.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "There was err a pub there which I think was quite popular with err you know locals and holiday makers and that, that road led you right down and at the end of the road is the err restaurant. Now, you know, I wouldn't say every time we walked back that way, there, there was another route that you, we, we cut through as well but I, I'm pretty sure that night we walked up that way and round because I know we walked past the Ocean Club.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:30:14 Reply "But err''

1485 "Okay, but how long would that generally take you''

 Reply "How long' Err I'd say, yeah ten fifteen minutes walk.'

 1485 "So when you got back to the apartments or the complex.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "There's the tennis courts there.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "So presumably what you're saying is you walked up with Matt and Russell.'

 Reply "Yeah, yes.'

1485 "That way.'

 Reply "As far as I can remember''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "That, you know, I just seemed to have got the images of walking past the reception.'

 1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Well the only way we could have walked past the reception is if we'd have gone that route.'

 1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "So that's what I'm basing my err recollection on.'

1485 "Did you go straight then to the tennis courts''

 Reply "Yes, I think I did, I think I'd gone straight there to chat with Gerry just to check that, you know, what was going on and everything and then went err went back to see Kate after.'

1485 "And what was Gerry doing''

 Reply "Err Gerry had been, you know, playing you know tennis already, he was having a good err game and I think there was you know, and there were a couple of the other tennis players who had specifically gone out there on a Mark Warner holiday to play tennis and you know Gerry was, you know, getting a lot out of the week from the tennis and made friends with those people and he was having a good game with them. Err so you know he would basically be playing tennis.'

1485 "Yeah, and at what point did you have the conversation with him' Did he stop the game or did you speak whilst he was playing''

 00:31:48 Reply "I can't remember, I can't remember. I, you know, in my mind, you know, he stopped playing and you know but I can't remember if I'm perfectly honest.'

1485 "And how long did you stay and watch the game for''

 Reply "Err all I remember is I was having a, you know, a brief conversation with Gerry, err you know and then you know I went back, I didn't actually stay there for too long because of the time, you know, was ticking by err but again these are, you know''

1485 "Afterwards.'

 Reply "Yeah, recollections rather than you know whether there was anything in between, there could well have been.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "So where were you going then' Presumably you weren't going to play tennis were you' When you left the beach, what was''

 Reply "Yeah, oh yes that was always the intention and that's what Fiona was saying, look if you're actually gonna do anything tonight you'd better get yourselves up there and it's getting quite late so that was, you know, that's the reason we'd all gone ahead because we waited till the children had finished eating and err got in the prams and got up there, you know it takes another five ten minutes on top walking back with them, err then you know we'd have lost the opportunity. Err again, presuming that you know the tennis was usually around six thirty, that if you know, if we're leaving the restaurant you know, quarter past six or whatever, around that time, that you know if we'd leave it much longer with it taking ten minutes or whatever to walk up just to start the tennis at half six, you know we were already cutting it fine and I think as it transpired we were playing tennis till you know even beyond there, it was quarter to seven, or around then and err you know if we'd have left it much later then we just thought well it's gonna finish, so.'

00:33:29 1485 "Right, were you going for a lesson or were you actually going to play''

 Reply "We were gonna play, there was obviously me, Matt and Russ, and Gerry was making up the four, fourth err person.'

1485 "But he was already playing''

 Reply "Yeah he'd already been playing and that's partly the reason that he kind of like threw in the towel early and said ah you know I've had, enough's enough, I've had a good day and err but then we managed to get Dan, the pro, just to play a bit with us err you know so that made up the four ball err just for a little while.'

1485 "So your four''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Was yourself, Matt, Russell and''

 Reply "Well it started off with Gerry and we had a bit with him and then Dan played a bit.'

1485 "And Dan, Dan replaced Gerry then did he''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "How far through the game was that''

 Reply "I can't remember.'

1485 "Sets wise''

 Reply "Err you know whether we played one, you know again this is just, yeah usually we'd play a set and then change over so most likely it would be Gerry played a set and then left, that was most likely how it happened.'

 1485 "Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go and, would you mind checking at Kate''

 Reply "Well I mean coming back from the beach I'd got no equipment to play tennis you know, etcetera, so I had to go back to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing tennis in, and err so he knew that I'd walk up that by and past so he said oh why don't you err, you know can you just pop in on the way, the way up, so it was on the way back from me picking the stuff up.'

1485 "Right, so you've walked past, you've walked past Gerry's apartment to get to yours.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Got changed''

 Reply "No, you know it was, again whether it was, in my mind it was on the way up that I'd popped in to Kate but it could have been on the way back, again, I'm sorry.'

1485 "No, it's okay.'

 Reply "For my vagueness.'

 00:35:21 1485 "But either way you'd have had to walk past because you go the roadside don't you''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "So you'd have had to walk past Gerry's''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Front door twice wouldn't you''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Is that right''

 Reply "So, the reason why I think it was more likely that I did it on the way there was because I've called in through the err patio, it kind of made more sense that I'd have walked in through the gate and then up through the you know where the sliding doors are to say I'm here, rather than going up to my apartment, coming back down, coming past the apartment and then coming in the sliding doors.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Because what I would have done is I'd have got changed and gone downstairs and then knocked on the front door because that, you know that would have made more sense rather than going all the way round and''

 1485 "Yeah, course.'

 Reply "So that's in my mind why it makes more sense that it was, that that was on the way up.'

1485 "Right, so how long did you spend in your apartment before, I know you, I appreciate that you can't recall whether it's going or coming.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "The likelihood is that it's on the way.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "How long did you spend in your apartment''

 00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we've you know, we've chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we'd gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that's another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you're talking twenty five minutes, so that's taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn't have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "You know just to pick the kit up and, and then go back down really.'

1485 "Did you have your own racquet''

 Reply "I didn't, no, I was using the, err Mark Warner's racquets.'

1485 "Mark Warner's, okay. I just want to revisit the going and seeing Kate before we move on.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Alright, and the reason why I've kept it separate is because I want you to just think now.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "And imagine, remember what you saw.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Did you open the door, slid door' Or was it already open' Or''

 Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it's early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally''

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err''

1485 "Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.'

Reply "Err, I mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn't, no I didn't go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know the open plan area and err you know just had a brief conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying about the, how well they looked and you know, it's early to get them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry's, you know just finished over there, we're going over to play a bit of tennis, err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn't many minutes that I was, was there.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.'

1485 "Did you actually go into the apartment''

 Reply "I did.'

[mike tesko]

David Payne interview continued..


1485 "Or did you do the conversation from the door''

 Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.'

00:41:00 1485 "Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.'

 Reply "I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err''

 1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example''

 Reply "I can't, no.'

1485 "And did you actually set eyes on each individual child''

 Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.'

1485 "And were they standing up' Sitting down''

 Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah.'

1485 "Did they actually acknowledge you''

 Reply "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.'

1485 "Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine''

 00:42:39 Reply "It was.'

1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.'

 Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.'

1485 "Three to five''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "So then you step back out, did you leave the doors open or did you close them''

 Reply "Err I couldn't remember. You know, again, I've got the, in my mind that the doors were open when I went in and I probably would have just walked out back that way, you know, it still, I mean it's still relatively nice outside, it was light and everything so err you know I, I, whether they kept the door open it's just nice when it's the end of the evening you know, sorry, you know the end of the afternoon, but if I'm perfectly honest the answer to that question is I can't remember.'

1485 "Okay. So then you went back and then you played, you played a game for about an hour''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "You think from seven, from about seven till about eight''

 Reply "Yeah, I mean it must, I mean it was before, I mean we got back before eight o' clock err you know so perhaps just before seven, err sorry, err yeah just before seven so it was just before eight o' clock. As I say when I got back I think I was cutting it fine and Fiona was still keen to go for a run and we started to get everyone ready for bed.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And err so it was, as I say, about an hour but certainly we'd finished before eight o' clock.'

00:44:18 1485 "Okay, and when you finished, I'm just trying to put this in order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine' Or''

 Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven't mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I'd certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything's fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you've got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer, Kate's fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy, there's no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all that just conveying to him that you know I don't think you need to err rush back, you've got a free pass for a bit longer.'

1485 "Alright.'

 Reply "Err yeah.'

1485 "So was that as soon as you got back to the, to the tennis courts''

 Reply "Yeah that would have been when we got back.'

1485 "When you got back to the tennis courts as opposed to at the end of the tennis session.'

 Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah.'

1485 "Okay, and was he fine with that''

 Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know it's difficult with cameras and everything, you don't want to sound (inaudible) or anything, but you know he's a very sorted person, a very caring person and that's the kind of thing, you know he's very organised.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And you know he will make sure everything's fine and sorted before you know the, the, he'd carry on and do something for his own benefit if you like. So you know he was certainly one to, he would have wanted to know before you know continuing.'

00:45:45 1485 "Okay. We've talked, you've talked about you know, you've gone back and you've got ready and Fiona's gone for a run. I'll move on to, you know, the time that, because you'd already discussed about going, leaving the apartment, the, you know, the situation how you'd left your doors and you know.'

 Reply "Mm, yes.'

1485 "The intercom and all the rest of it. I'm just gonna move on to when you actually got to the Tapas, you said that you passed Matt on the way down.'

 Reply "Mm.'

 1485 "Whereabouts did you pass him''

 Reply "Err''

1485 "Can you mark, just''

 Reply "Yeah, the err where's, this is the entrance here into the Tapas area.'

 1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we'd actually entered into the Tapas bar to just''

1485 "Actually into the complex''

 Reply "Just, just into the complex, but certainly we hadn't made it yet to the swimming pool but it was just, just about there.'

 1485 "Okay.'

 Reply "Err yeah.'

00:46:42 1485 "And what time do you think that was''

 Reply "Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just before nine o' clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and nine o' clock.'

1485 "And then you sat down, after the comments of course that you''

 Reply "Yes, yeah.'

1485 "Who was there when you got, when you got to the table''

 Reply "Err well, as I say, Gerry was sat next to me, err on my left, and then there was this choice of where Dianne was gonna sit with err, err Matt and err Russell, so those people had to be there, Kate was obviously there, Fiona had walked down with, as well, and err and as for Rachael and Jane I, I cannot say a hundred percent that they were there.'

1485 "What was Gerry doing when you got there''

 Reply "Err I, again my recollection is we sat down and I just started talking to him, but I'm not sure whether that is entirely correct, whether he was having a conversation with somebody else before and then you know I just started talking but my recollection we started, you know, not far after we'd sat down we just started talking and you know, and I say we were just saying, you know what we'd both done and what a fantastic day that we'd had err you know and I know beyond the call of this interview but you know I'd had a lot of stress you know with work and over the last few years and you know it's, it's you know two, two young children it's not been a particularly easy time and you know and for me that was the first day in many, many a month that I'd really enjoyed it and then Gerry had reciprocated and said we also had one of the best days that we'd had in many, many a month. You know that is my recollection of the first thing that happened on that table, but just, whether its because it was such a positive conversation that we'd had, which override the fact that there was other things that had happened before I wouldn't like to say but in my mind that was the first thing that had happened.'

1485 "Yeah. So did you notice that he got up to go and check Madeleine, or to check his children''

 00:49:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean I, you know I know the people who left the table but I couldn't tell you what order they left in and I couldn't tell you what the time is that they left. You know, people have chatted about it, you know we've read about it and I'm not prepared to say well I think this is what happened because I'm sure my view's been tainted by, you know, what we've read and what we've seen.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err but you know I'm, you know it's, I knew that Russell, you know had had problems because Evie had been ill and he, you know, had left the table you know for err, err quite a few minutes because you know he was having to, you know he came back saying oh he's had to clean the sheets and she'd been sick and everything and then there was the issue of the err them bringing out his food and they had to re-cook him, you know another meal and then Jane had quickly eaten her meal you know so that she could then leave the table so those things you know, I'm sure, you know, I know happened and unfortunately I can't be any more helpful in saying this was the time, this is how long they were gone for. Err yeah I know that Gerry left the table, you know, I can remember him, I remember him coming back to say well you know, he wasn't left, you know he didn't leave at you know an unreasonable amount of time, it didn't seem that he was away for particularly long, you know he did make some comment, which I know that if someone else was hearing as a group had said yeah, I'll say yeah you know that's what he said, but I can't remember err entirely, but err you know, the, the conversation at the table in terms of other people leaving and looking at the children was along the lines of you know that it, and again it transpired later that I, that other people were look, you know were popping in as an extra addition to what other people were generally doing in terms of looking after the err children and err you know when Matt came back I remember him saying to somebody oh yeah I've looked at, you know and they're fine you know and that was the way that the other families were, were working it. Err so, you know, apart from Russell who was away a little bit longer because you know what I've just explained before, everyone tended to walk up there, then walk back in a time which you would expect them to walk, walk up to the apartment and you know there was no long gaps between anything which you know wasn't you know explained. Err, so yeah.'

00:51:35 1485 "Do you recall Gerry coming back from his turn and then commenting about speaking to Gez''

 Reply "Err I, you know again, I think I do, and I know that sounds very vague but you know again, just on the context of you know what, what's been said about the conversation with Gez and this is a very important part of the story, it's just difficult to say what you, you know what you believe to have happened and what you've read has happened.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "But I, you know I do remember some, something along the lines that he'd had a conversation err with Gez but again you know if you're chatting to someone else and you just perhaps hear something at, at the side, err or you just look up and listen to a bit and then you move onto the conversation.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Err but some, yeah.'

1485 "Do you recall Jane coming back from her trip' From her visit if you like, shortly after Gerry had come back.'

 Reply "I don't know.'

00:52:39 1485 "And is there anything that sticks in your mind in relation to what anybody's said when they'd come, apart from the one or two people saying everything's fine, was there anything else that you can think of that anybody said anything''

 Reply "Err I mean there was nothing you know, I mean, I mean when obviously Russell came back and explained what had gone on and you know with, with Evie, err Matt, you know, had come back and you know said everything's fine. Err Gerry, you know I, as I say, I think he, I heard him mention that he'd spoken to someone on the way back and I'm not sure if people triggered my memory of that I could get that, that's it. When Jane came back there was certainly nothing that she said that err you know led us to be worried at that particular stage, you know, the conversation was, was again, was you know oh Evie's okay and it was a sort of shame that they you know, the situation there with Evie. Err and you know the, the jokes that have been going on earlier and err you know just, yeah generally nothing, nothing really stood out...'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Had happened, err there was, you know nothing.'

00:54:03 1485 "The fact that Jane had come back having seen a male carrying a child.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Could you introduce that within your recollection''

 Reply "I can, err it was never mentioned at that table when she came back, err when we went, you know, looking for Madeleine after err Fiona told me that she'd, you know, mentioned this to Fiona and you know so it's, obviously Fiona's statement's probably more important from this point of view exactly what she said about it.'

1485 "Yeah, yeah.'

 Reply "But I know from Fiona that this was mentioned and I think it was in the context that she was really worried saying anything to Kate to, to upset her which you know looking from, from people observing out, in at this, they'll probably think well hang on, you think that someone's just seen, but you know, again, it was a, a resort where there was a lot of children around err very, it's a small friendly place and she just thought it was one of the parents who you know was perhaps, you know they'd be staying in one apartment and were transferring their child back to another apartment.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "And really didn't think twice about it at the time and that's why it wasn't mentioned then. But she definitely mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted and you know on the, the following day before she'd actually mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine's pyjamas and, and err Jane said that's not right, how did they get that, well she said you know, that in, I don't know how they get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what she was wearing and described it you know differently you know to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she'd even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.'

00:56:37 1485 "How did she describe the child to you''

 Reply "Err, the, from, again my, my recollection was more about the, the description of the pyjamas not fitting in with the description of the newspaper and if I was to say that she was carrying the child you know like this, rather than like, like that then, you know because again this is something that we've talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if you were carrying your own child any distance, to actually carry a child like so is, it's hard work. You know, it's much easier to carry a child like this and it's easier to keep them asleep and support their head etcetera. So yeah that's something we've chatted about since and you know I could say oh yes I'm a hundred percent sure she said that, that they were carrying the child like that, but I, again, I wouldn't be, be accurate. All I can say is accurately I remember there was a, the err the discrepancy with the pyjamas and that, you know, and then she kept coming back to the turn ups which you know, which is very unique about the err you know, the pyjamas so that was, you know, you're in shock, you can't believe what's happened, you know, you're, you're ninety nine, point nine, nine, nine percent sure that this is what's happened but you're still not wanting to believe what's happened.'

1485 "Yeah.'

[mike tesko]

David Payne interview continued..


 Reply "But you know and then you're looking for information to, to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is it, that is who's taken her. Err you know and again, just for the record, I mean Jane, I've known Jane for a few years, you know, she's an extremely strong character, she's you know very reliable and you know she speaks her own mind and you know, and if that's what she has seen then you know I'm a hundred percent sure that that's what she's seen.'

00:58:41 1485 "Okay. Just in relation to, the reason why I ask you that is because Jane has saw what she's saw and then she's come back to the table and then you know one of the points I was trying to raise with you as well was did you notice anything different in her demeanour throughout the rest of the evening before Kate raised the alarm''

 Reply "Err not, not really I mean, as I say my general feeling was about the problems that they were having you know, it's difficult, you know err one of them was there and then the other one was going and err you know just the logistics of the situation, you know where I was actually sat, I wasn't directly sat in a position that I was probably gonna chat to Jane therefore you know, the people who were immediately round me were the people more likely I'd chat to rather than chatting across, you know, quite a reasonable size table. Err so I don't, you know I don't really think, you know I, I noticed anything different about Jane but whether, you know, there was or there wasn't perhaps I wasn't in the best position there to, to comment that, as I say my recollections were more of the logistics, apart from with Evie not being well.'

1485 "Yeah. Right, and again you've discussed what happened once Kate had turned up and the exact words that Kate had said.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Once the alarm had been raised you said that you all got up and its, with the exception of Dianne, everybody ran to the assistance.'

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Exactly what did you do''

 Reply "Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there won't be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way. Err also obviously the, the, the issue with the, the shutters had been raised, was brought up err you know on the way up as well and then I was asking about the gates being shut at that back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had wandered off. Err you know, Madeleine's err, you know, was a very bright child and you know it would just seem so inconceivable that she would have wandered off you know, especially you know, when she was sleepy you know, we put that argument forward, but then you know sleeping chil, sleepy children you know don't put, shut the doors you know behind them and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts err and again you know we, we, I'm sure we went into the apartment, just looked and you know, incredulously you know well where, err where could she be, you know, you know we just looked in the obvious err places and then err you know obviously Kate and Gerry were just completely, you know, hysterical err you know at this stage. Err and then we just, you know then we went to do the sweeps around the place and I said, as I said before, I went up to look at our apartment to check, check the girls were alright and you know, and the actual order that this all happened, you know, it's just err a complete eye opener up for us to see you know what other unfor, unfortunate people have been through just to what a destabilising effect, you know, that circumstances has on you or, and you know I, I think most people had a, you know, idea of, pretty exactly what happened that day leaving but you know after that I think people find it really difficult generally to say exactly what they did and when. Err but as I say we went err we went to the apartment and had a look round and then err I had a look quite earlier on to see err whether the, err girls were alright. I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically swept around the, the area just to make, make sure you know that, ah this can't, can't be what's happened, she must have you know, you just don't want to weigh up that option, it just wasn't an option that could have happened but you knew it had happened and err, and then as I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we've got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I'll, I'll you know so he went off down to the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach shouting out and identifying people. Err the, I say, the Mark Warner people they were around there, we, you know as I say we also at a very early stage we knew it was important that we got a picture of Madeleine just to show people, whether it be local, but, but we were also imploring the err the GNR to you know close down and circulate this picture, err and that was, you know that was something that Mark Warner team helped us set up just in the, you know the Tapas bit there.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 01:04:57 Reply "Err then we were popping in and out of the apartment err you know having conversations with Kate and Gerry and err you know they were in communication with people back home err you know Gerry was you know speaking to family, they were chatting to err Paul's the priest who married them and Kate was chatting to her mum you know err and it was just all kicking off around really.'

1485 "You know when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like' I mean where was Kate and Gerry''

 Reply "Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate's obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I'm, you know, very good friends with Gerry so more likely I'd have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what's gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much together. I think, I don't know what, whether the other people came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the main people who were in the apartment. Err yeah I certainly went into err the doorway of that, the room where all the children were staying you know and Sean and Amelie were still you know sleeping, err you know and this is something that's, you know, we've all kind of discussed you know amongst all the melee that was kicking off they were just sleeping so, you know, contently. Err and then you know the other area, the other areas I remember going into Kate and Gerry's err bedroom with Gerry and he'd perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and just with, you know, she's gone, she's gone, err and then as I say, I, I, after that I can't really say exactly, you know. We kept meeting up at stages in the evening to, to try and appraise the situation and you know what shall we do, err.'

01:07:44 1485 "Did you hear Kate say to Gerry they've let her down''

Reply "Err, it's a comment that I've heard her say since and you know, I can't say that I specifically heard her say it that night. Err but you know, so many emotions are flying through your mind at that stage and you know certainly guilt was going through you know their mind, err because it, you know, everyone was like questioning themselves, you know, about you know what had happened and you know I know that she certainly was, those comments that she made along the lines of guilt for err you know, you know not being there for her, without a doubt, but specifically that phrase I wouldn't, you know I can't recall her saying that but again, it's just a general underlying you know nature of what she was saying but it was along the lines that she, you know she had let her down, that you know when she, err again whether it was that night or another night she said well you know when she needed us we weren't there for her, you know and that was, you know the general kind of things that she was implying.'

1485 "Yeah, did she say that on the night then''

 01:09:04 Reply "Err I say I don't know, I know that she said those things.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Or implied those things but I can't tell you exactly what the phrases were that she used but you know she felt that they weren't there for the biggest time in her life when they needed her.'

1485 "Yeah. Did Fiona tell you that Kate had told her that Madeleine had woke up the night before''

 Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "On that night''

 Reply "Err I'm sure Fiona did tell me that night err and said that you know she'd had a, a, you know that Madeleine had you know woke, had been crying the night before and err you know this was just, and that she'd mentioned it to her and you know do you think we should be doing anything err differently, err and you know Fiona mentioned that conversation and I'm sure, I'm pretty sure it was that night err that she brought it up. Err its, you know I, do you try and make people feel better because you think, you know, who, who in the world would have thought this would have happened to anyone, you know, it just doesn't happen to you.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Certainly and you know the last case of a child going missing like this was you know ten years plus, you know, in Corfu, and so you know when, when your child's been crying, whether they you know they've have a bad nightmare or you know they've, you know they've perhaps have had a dream and they're crying a bit and you try and you know, and that's what you know we were saying to Kate really, you know those were the things that go through your mind.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Rather than think ah well perhaps someone's tried to get into the apartment, you know, but then you look back and then the enormity of what you said does, you know gain momentum. Err that's it.'
01:11:09 1485 "What I've got here is a few questions from the PJ'S because they wanted us to ask you''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "A series of questions and there may well be duplication of what you've said but please bare with me.'

 Reply "Okay.'

1485 "Alright''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Now you've answered the first one, it says what time did you return to the beach club on May the third as you were coming from the beach''

 Reply "Right.'

1485 "So that's where you said that you come from the restaurant.'

 Reply "Yeah, yeah we'd come from the restaurant on the beach and as I say we left there about eighteen fifteen, err at that time.'

1485 "And where did you go''

 Reply "We went, I, I went up err went to see Gerry at the tennis courts.'

1485 "So you were at the tennis courts, who did you talk to''

 Reply "Err just Gerry pretty much, you know, whether I made comment to anyone else I don't remember that, just, I just remember I talked to Gerry.'

1485 "Okay, did you go to the MCCANN family apartment between six and seven' Well, yes you did.'

 Reply "Mm.'

1485 "And if yes, why' You've already said that. Which route did you take' You told me that. Time' You've told me that. Did you enter the apartment' You've told me that. Who did you talk to' You've told me that. Did you talk to Kate' You've told me that. Did you notice anything unusual''

 Reply "No, definitely not. It was err pretty much what I would expect, you know, go into the apartment, there was certainly no atmosphere, there was nothing, no disquiet between the children or Kate, you know it was just very normal, just happy children playing and ready for bed.'

01:12:53 1485 "How long did the conversation take' Well you said between three and five minutes. Did you see the children' Well yes you did, you've said that, including Madeleine. What were the children doing' Well you've said that they were just standing around.'

 Reply "Mm, I mean they were interacting, playing a bit and you know they're looking at me and perhaps have a, you know, but certainly''

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "Behaving normally for kids at that age.'

 1485 "As the person who organised this trip were you aware of the baby listening service' Well yes you were, but we discussed that a bit earlier didn't we.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Was this available at night' Was it, could you remember what it''

 Reply "Well the, the, the point, the, the service that they, they offered there which was different to the other Mark Warner's was that they had a, a drop-in err centre for want of a better description err for the evening. So if you wanted to go out for a meal you would take your child down to err the, the reception, you know, there's an area down there you know specific for that where they'd have the, the nannies who would keep an eye on your children. You could go and have something to eat and then you go and pick your child up err after. This, it comes back to pretty much, you know, we'd gone there you know with the same kind of, originally we were hoping that it would be someone knocking the door, listening at the door and everything's quiet and then move, moving on and that's what we'd gone with the, think it would be. I did know before I went on the holiday that that wasn't what it was going to be but we'd gone on there adopting that that's you know how we were gonna most likely do it, well that was one of the options anyway depending on where the apartments were and everything. Now where the, where the drop-in err creche in the evening was, was you know it was a, you know a fair distance you know from where we were staying err you know so, you know it wasn't certainly where you ate down there and our, our complex or our apartments was quite a bit away so it was nothing that we'd really entertain. Secondly, all the children are, are you know very young and wouldn't, would be sleeping at that time so it wasn't something that we wanted to use because of the children, you know we'd want them to be sleeping and we, you know they wouldn't sleep particularly well down there and you know we thought what we were doing obviously was, you know''

1485 "Yeah.'

 01:15:14 Reply "Was, was err reasonable. We were checking the children more often than, than Mark Warner would do, not only were they, it wasn't just a listening outside the door, people were going in and checking the children so from that perspective we felt we were doing more than they normally would do. Err so from that point of view you know it, it was, you know, a bit of a, not say inconvenience isn't the right word, but we were, you know we knew what we going, what, what it was going to be like when we got there and we thought what we were doing was, was more than adequate than a lot of the Mark Warner centres across Europe do.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "So err you know we were aware there was a creche there but just for the reasons that I've just said that's why we didn't use it, so err you know and I know that's something that's been picked up in the press and obviously Mark Warner you know they want to put across that you know there, there is that option for people if they were to go to that Mark Warner resort.'

1485 "Yeah.'

 Reply "But, but you know.'

01:16:14 1485 "Were you aware by the way that during the course of the week that Gerry and Kate had changed their methods of entering their apartment''

 Reply "Err I hadn't at all, no.'

1485 "Right, the next question then from the PJ'S is, did you travel to Portugal with intercoms to monitor your children' Well you've said that you did.'

 Reply "Yes.'

1485 "When you travel with your children do you always use intercoms''

 Reply "Err, I mean if we, if we were staying at somebody else's house err you know and they were in the loft or whatever and we couldn't hear the children crying then yes we would travel with monitors. Err you know, you know, we, our child you know Scarlet was one of the youngest children there so obviously the monitor was you know, was extremely important, you know we wanted to see if she was crying because you know she wasn't sleeping as well as the elder child so at that, that time, monitors were very important to us and if we were going anywhere where we thought that we couldn't hear the children then you know, if they were very young then we would use the monitors but they're now older and the question's perhaps not as pertinent as it was err you know eleven months ago. But you know, certainly around that time we didn't make a habit of you know going and staying in some resort or hotel and you know stick a monitor upstairs and off we went, it was, you know, we don't go away that frequently.'

01:17:56 1485 "Did you suggest an intercom to anybody else''

 Reply "Err no I mean, I don't, you know I, I remember having the discussion with Fi you know, Fiona, with what, what we were gonna do but I didn't really discuss what other people were gonna do really, you know, which comes back to the bit in the line of questioning you asked me before, do you think everyone knew about what the babysitting was like, and I'm sure I would've said that. Err but no we didn't discuss monitors with anybody else.'

1485 "At the apartment you stayed in with your family at the Ocean Club have you ever left the windows and doors open''

 Reply "Of the, of the apartment''

1485 "Of your apartment yeah.'

 Reply "Err we, well I'd like to think that every time we went out that all the doors were shut, we never knowingly left the apartment with the doors or windows open and you know, it was good having Dianne there because she's a very good safe, safe for everything like you know she'd, you know, so not knowingly did we ever leave them and to my recollection they were never open.'

1485 "Okay.'

 Reply "You know if we were in the apartment, different, but if we left it then no.'

01:19:25 1485 "Okay. Okay David it's time to get your phone out. Can I just confirm what mobile phone number you have please'' :)