Author Topic: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath  (Read 236895 times)

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Offline Alias

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #435 on: February 04, 2013, 09:34:PM »
She would have fought any attacker like a cat with her claws out. She would have done anything to damage any attacker who were hurting her children.

Of course she would! She would have been aware of what was going on - the awful noises and going ons on the same floor would have woken her up (if she was asleep), the first thing she would have done would have been to check on her boys. Any mother, any parent would.
Could she have been locked in her bedroom (don´t know if the room could be locked)? If she had, wouldn´t she have kicked the door - or jumped out the window, SOMETHING! Not just waited in line to get shot, then looking very peaceful after the fact, as the photos show.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #436 on: February 04, 2013, 11:38:PM »
There are some very good threads posted tonight and forgive me if I don't get to every point but feel free to recapitulate if there's something nagging which makes you feel uneasy. I have been accused in the past of simplifying schizophrenia,of not taking on board what the professionals in the field have posted and of having no personal experience of the illness and therefore writing in a vacuum with little or no facts to back up my point of view.

In fact I have read quite a bit on the illness in the past and whilst not suffering from schizophrenia personally I do know someone who was struck with the illness at the age of 17 after a series of stressful examinations. Please don't ask me to elucidate further because I'm not going to,but I will describe a few of her symptoms: dancing outside at a bus stop whilst having no intention of catching a bus,calling a taxi to Manchester Airport and insisting to Passport Control that she board a plane to Germany whilst not in possession of a ticket or a passport,and again whilst off medication quoting the bible in a way any person in the street would realize after two minutes that she was not quite normal.

On medication she was totally normal,you could talk to her just like anyone else and not suspect she was a schizophrenic. There were side-effects to the medication such as hand tremors(fastening taps so tightly the next person to use the sink would have difficulty in unscrewing them)and weight gain.

When I compare this girl to Sheila I think of Ann Eaton's claim that Sheila "couldn't put beans on toast",and Freddi Emani's observation that when Sheila poured a drink she needed two hands to hold the glass and when she used her right hand her left hand moved involuntarily. This would obviously impair Sheila from using a gun were she still under the influence of any anti-psychotic medication,and we have all read the medical report where there were traces of Haloperidol in her liver and cannabis,although Dr. Hugh Ferguson does say the cannabis use would not have impacted on the Haloperidol if I have read it right.

Ah but you may say Sheila was totally off her medication and therefore she would not have been prone to any of the side-effects mentioned above. Her manual dexterity would have been back to normal and let's say for sake of argument that she was able to reload a gun twice and had malice aforethought to plot the ultimate revenge on all in the house that night.

The problem with this scenario is that under the non-influence of any medication whatsoever her mental state reverts to what she had demonstrated and experienced in the past. We know from her ex-husband Colin that she was difficult to live with,that she had put her hand through a pane glass window for whatever reason and had hurled pots and pans around the kitchen though aiming to miss at Colin. Later at the Maida Vale flat her ex-boyfriend Freddi Emani noted her religious mania(I'm not too sure how she was a danger to others when she imagined herself Joan of Arc,and to my mind when Jeremy got wind of this it was the germination of his plot to burn the house down and fittingly burn his sister as Joan was),nor can I see distressing as it might be to the neighbours who wanted a good night's sleep how Sheila howling like a wolf in the night hours was a danger to anyone in the vicinity.

Did she ever threaten to kill anybody,did she ever pick up a kitchen knife and threaten to kill Colin or the boys? Did she ever do this at White House Farm where she stayed for a time after her hospitalization,and would Nevill and June ever have felt safe at night at this stage had she done so?

Of course it's impossible to categorize schizophrenics into one homogeneous group and it would be foolish to do so. But when you look at the tragic cases of Lianne Smith and Melanie Ruddell to name but two there's no real mystery about schizophrenics whatever cohort they belong to medically.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2148064/Melanie-Ruddell-heard-voices-head-just-killed-son-Christy.html#axzz2JyLGoxHd

Of course the Jeremy supporters will quote Helen Grimster,and I have no wish to hide any information so I post it here. The only thing I would say is that Sheila comments that she has a better relationship with Colin because of the divorce,so the motive some allege of getting back at him for leaving her or feeling suicidal because they were not back together does not in my opinion stand up.http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=155.0
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:54:PM by Steve_uk »

mertol22

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #437 on: February 04, 2013, 11:43:PM »
I think there is too much focus on the state of Sheilas mind, i dont believe she was anything of the sort, if she was that bad she would have been sectioned.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #438 on: February 04, 2013, 11:53:PM »
I think there is too much focus on the state of Sheilas mind, i dont believe she was anything of the sort, if she was that bad she would have been sectioned.
That's my opinion too mertol22 and I would hazard a guess that even if the Haloperidol had worn off she was still under the influence of Electroconvulsive Therapy which made her vacant at the shop in Tiptree and later at the dinner table if Jeremy is to be believed,and under these circumstances unlikely that she could have discharged a gun 25 times with accuracy and reloaded twice in the process.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:53:PM by Steve_uk »

mertol22

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #439 on: February 04, 2013, 11:59:PM »
That's my opinion too mertol22 and I would hazard a guess that even if the Haloperidol had worn off she was still under the influence of Electroconvulsive Therapy which made her vacant at the shop in Tiptree and later at the dinner table if Jeremy is to be believed,and under these circumstances unlikely that she could have discharged a gun 25 times with accuracy and reloaded twice in the process.
While i may agree with you in the first part of your post steve there are factors to balence things, her running/screaming from the monastery, the end of her relationship with colin, to kill those people in that way , something very warped and twisted occured, we have not found the last parts of this sad puzzle.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #440 on: February 05, 2013, 12:10:AM »
While i may agree with you in the first part of your post steve there are factors to balence things, her running/screaming from the monastery, the end of her relationship with colin, to kill those people in that way , something very warped and twisted occured, we have not found the last parts of this sad puzzle.
I've dealt with the relationship with Colin,and I don't want to pretend that Sheila was a well woman. As far as the monastery incident is concerned and the electrician it's strangers who frighten her in my view not family,and Sheila does not attempt to seriously harm either group in any way.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #441 on: February 05, 2013, 07:36:PM »
On a scale of 1-10 how reliable are witnesses in this case:

1) James Richards: Why would he lie Jeremy told him "several times with vehemence:I f***ing hate my parents" Credibility rating: 9

2) Charles Marsden: Testified under oath Jeremy speculated that if the Farm burned down at the period of Christmas 1984 then "everything would be mine". The occasion was significant because it was the only time before August 1985 that the whole family was together under one roof. Credibility rating: 9

3) Julie Mugford: The star witness for the Prosecution who gave an insight into the workings of Jeremy's mind which for whatever reason Jeremy kept concealed during trial. It made her testimony that much more poignant. Judge Mr. Justice Drake directed the jury to "treat her evidence with a great deal of caution".  Credibility rating: 8

4) Robert Boutflour: Testified that Jeremy had told him "Oh no Uncle Bobby..I could easily kill my parents". Uncorroborated and Boutflour was one of the relatives who stood to gain from Jeremy's conviction. Credibility rating:6

5) Doris Foakes: Jeremy told her:"I'm not sharing any of my money with Sheila" which begs the question how Jeremy was going to arrange that state of affairs to come about. What reason does Doris have to lie? Credibility rating: 9

6) Barbara Wilson: Testified Jeremy put his feet up on Nevill's desk after the murders and barked orders at her. This farm secretary has nothing to gain by disparaging her probable new employer. Credibility rating: 10

7) Helen Grimster: A distant relative of the Bambers she had a conversation with Sheila Caffell several weeks before the murders in which Sheila had spoken of suicide. No reason to lie. Credibility rating: 9

 Jeremy Bamber: His testimony about receiving the telephone call,about not having spoken to Julie regarding killing his family,and about not having used a silencer is uncorroborated. His remark to Prosecution barrister Anthony Arlidge QC "that is what you have to establish" suggests the workings of Jeremy's mind in which he is trying to bluff it out. Credibility rating: 0
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 07:41:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #442 on: February 05, 2013, 07:47:PM »
On a scale of 1-10 how reliable are witnesses in this case:

1) James Richards: Why would he lie Jeremy told him "several times with vehemence:I f***ing hate my parents" Credibility rating: 9

2) Charles Marsden: Testified under oath Jeremy speculated that if the Farm burned down at the period of Christmas 1984 then "everything would be mine". The occasion was significant because it was the only time before August 1985 that the whole family was together under one roof. Credibility rating: 9

3) Julie Mugford: The star witness for the Prosecution who gave an insight into the workings of Jeremy's mind which for whatever reason Jeremy kept concealed during trial. It made her testimony that much more poignant. Judge Mr. Justice Drake directed the jury to "treat her evidence with a great deal of caution".  Credibility rating: 8

4) Robert Boutflour: Testified that Jeremy had told him "Oh no Uncle Bobby..I could easily kill my parents". Uncorroborated and Boutflour was one of the relatives who stood to gain from Jeremy's conviction. Credibility rating:6

5) Doris Foakes: Jeremy told her:"I'm not sharing any of my money with Sheila" which begs the question how Jeremy was going to arrange that state of affairs to come about. What reason does Doris have to lie? Credibility rating: 9

6) Barbara Wilson: Testified Jeremy put his feet up on Nevill's desk after the murders and barked orders at her. This farm secretary has nothing to gain by disparaging her probable new employer. Credibility rating: 10

7) Helen Grimster: A distant relative of the Bambers she had a conversation with Sheila Caffell several weeks before the murders in which Sheila had spoken of suicide. No reason to lie. Credibility rating: 9

 Jeremy Bamber: His testimony about receiving the telephone call,about not having spoken to Julie regarding killing his family,and about not having used a silencer is uncorroborated. His remark to Prosecution barrister Anthony Arlidge QC "that is what you have to establish" suggests the workings of Jeremy's mind in which he is trying to bluff it out. Credibility rating: 0

I don't get the credibility ratings  :-\.  Are you saying that JB was max and BW min or vice-versa?

Offline Jane

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #443 on: February 05, 2013, 07:56:PM »
On a scale of 1-10 how reliable are witnesses in this case:

1) James Richards: Why would he lie Jeremy told him "several times with vehemence:I f***ing hate my parents" Credibility rating: 9

2) Charles Marsden: Testified under oath Jeremy speculated that if the Farm burned down at the period of Christmas 1984 then "everything would be mine". The occasion was significant because it was the only time before August 1985 that the whole family was together under one roof. Credibility rating: 9

3) Julie Mugford: The star witness for the Prosecution who gave an insight into the workings of Jeremy's mind which for whatever reason Jeremy kept concealed during trial. It made her testimony that much more poignant. Judge Mr. Justice Drake directed the jury to "treat her evidence with a great deal of caution".  Credibility rating: 8

4) Robert Boutflour: Testified that Jeremy had told him "Oh no Uncle Bobby..I could easily kill my parents". Uncorroborated and Boutflour was one of the relatives who stood to gain from Jeremy's conviction. Credibility rating:6

5) Doris Foakes: Jeremy told her:"I'm not sharing any of my money with Sheila" which begs the question how Jeremy was going to arrange that state of affairs to come about. What reason does Doris have to lie? Credibility rating: 9

6) Barbara Wilson: Testified Jeremy put his feet up on Nevill's desk after the murders and barked orders at her. This farm secretary has nothing to gain by disparaging her probable new employer. Credibility rating: 10

7) Helen Grimster: A distant relative of the Bambers she had a conversation with Sheila Caffell several weeks before the murders in which Sheila had spoken of suicide. No reason to lie. Credibility rating: 9

 Jeremy Bamber: His testimony about receiving the telephone call,about not having spoken to Julie regarding killing his family,and about not having used a silencer is uncorroborated. His remark to Prosecution barrister Anthony Arlidge QC "that is what you have to establish" suggests the workings of Jeremy's mind in which he is trying to bluff it out. Credibility rating: 0



Isn't it strange that those words said by Colin about Sheila being culpable are according to you just words said as a reaction. You are as dismissive of others' words. But when it comes to anyone saying anything defamatory about Jeremy you insist they are telling the truth.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #444 on: February 05, 2013, 08:01:PM »
It's the balance of evidence and for Jeremy to be innocent you have to engineer a situation whereby all the people above must be dissembling whilst Jeremy is the person telling the Gospel truth. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way.

Offline lookout

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #445 on: February 05, 2013, 08:07:PM »
It's the balance of evidence and for Jeremy to be innocent you have to engineer a situation whereby all the people above must be dissembling whilst Jeremy is the person telling the Gospel truth. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way.


Steve,,re. your  post about schizophrenia,,,cannabis/heroin would have cancelled out any benefit towards the prescription drugs that Sheila was taking for her condition,,,thus making her more likely to be violent.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #446 on: February 05, 2013, 08:09:PM »

Steve,,re. your  post about schizophrenia,,,cannabis/heroin would have cancelled out any benefit towards the prescription drugs that Sheila was taking for her condition,,,thus making her more likely to be violent.
Sheila would not have gone near heroin. There was an incident related in Clare Powell's book about one of the Maida Vale set leaving a bag of heroin in a drawer which the boys had attended and Sheila was horrified.

Offline Jane

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #447 on: February 05, 2013, 08:13:PM »
It's the balance of evidence and for Jeremy to be innocent you have to engineer a situation whereby all the people above must be dissembling whilst Jeremy is the person telling the Gospel truth. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way.


Steve dear, when it comes to "engineering" you are world class ;D ;D ;D

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #448 on: February 05, 2013, 08:15:PM »

Steve dear, when it comes to "engineering" you are world class ;D ;D ;D
I don't know why the other witnesses bothered to turn up at Chelmsford Crown Court in October 1986 if you're not prepared to listen to them.

Offline Jane

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Re: Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath
« Reply #449 on: February 05, 2013, 08:16:PM »
I think there is too much focus on the state of Sheilas mind, i dont believe she was anything of the sort, if she was that bad she would have been sectioned.


As she undoubtedly WOULD have been had the NHS been involved. This, preventing sectioning, may have been one of the reasons private care was chosen for her.