Author Topic: residue!!  (Read 7610 times)

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guest1199

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residue!!
« on: December 28, 2012, 10:58:PM »
Hi there!!

The next point I’d like to make is about the residue from the .22 rifle.  A lot has been said about the lack of lead residue on Sheila’s hands when there should have been more is she had fired all 26 rounds. 

There has been recent testing with the moderator on and off the gun.  The video shows residue being deposited on pigskin by the rifle being fired when the moderator is on.  There was no such profile residue around Sheila’s wounds.  But.....

....Does anyone know if levels of residue were measured on the hands of the individual testing the gun or on his clothes during this testing.  Also would the level of residue on an individual’s hands vary if the moderator was on or not?

Offline big-goolies

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2012, 11:20:PM »
ive got some residue in my pants   :P

Offline big-goolies

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2012, 11:47:PM »
Also ... could SC have had a bath after shooting everyone and before she shot herself ? therefore reducing the amount of lead residue present

Offline buddy

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2012, 11:53:PM »
Hi there!!

The next point I’d like to make is about the residue from the .22 rifle.  A lot has been said about the lack of lead residue on Sheila’s hands when there should have been more is she had fired all 26 rounds. 

There has been recent testing with the moderator on and off the gun.  The video shows residue being deposited on pigskin by the rifle being fired when the moderator is on.  There was no such profile residue around Sheila’s wounds.  But.....

....Does anyone know if levels of residue were measured on the hands of the individual testing the gun or on his clothes during this testing.  Also would the level of residue on an individual’s hands vary if the moderator was on or not?
I doubt any such residue tests were ever carried out at is was considered 4 murders, and a suicide, so the police felt no need to do any tests.
It was three weeks later after all the bodies had been buried/cremated that Bamber was suspected., and then too late to do any tests.
We then get to the arse covering stage of the investigation. For instance the coroner said he had been misinformed by EP, as he would have made a more thorough check on the bodies yet was happy to go along with the murder/ suicide theory.
In any case gunshot residue would have only been found on Sheila's forearm as that would have been nearest to the area where used catridges were discharged from the rifle.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 12:43:AM »
Roger Wilkes tells us DC Hammersley failed to take swabs from Sheila's hands,feet or legs. There's more information about the subject here:http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2982.0

Caroline R

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 10:26:AM »
I doubt any such residue tests were ever carried out at is was considered 4 murders, and a suicide, so the police felt no need to do any tests.
It was three weeks later after all the bodies had been buried/cremated that Bamber was suspected., and then too late to do any tests.
We then get to the arse covering stage of the investigation. For instance the coroner said he had been misinformed by EP, as he would have made a more thorough check on the bodies yet was happy to go along with the murder/ suicide theory.
In any case gunshot residue would have only been found on Sheila's forearm as that would have been nearest to the area where used catridges were discharged from the rifle.

I was just about to make the very same points - they also buggered up the hand swabs!!

Offline Patti

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 10:37:AM »
I was just about to make the very same points - they also buggered up the hand swabs!!

Yes they did! I was reading this last night....It is the dialogue form the Royal Curt of Justice 2003, the evidence is from Mr Wingad and it is all about the swabs. It is an interesting read. Not once though was it mentioned that the 2nd submission of swabs could have been taken when Sheila had been washed down.  It was evident that this had been done, because the swabs should have revealed something. She was in a room where 14 bullets were delivered, plus she was holding the rifle, which would have been covered in residue....

It wont let me upload the file...:( 
 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 10:38:AM by Patti »

Caroline R

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 10:48:AM »
Yes they did! I was reading this last night....It is the dialogue form the Royal Curt of Justice 2003, the evidence is from Mr Wingad and it is all about the swabs. It is an interesting read. Not once though was it mentioned that the 2nd submission of swabs could have been taken when Sheila had been washed down.  It was evident that this had been done, because the swabs should have revealed something. She was in a room where 14 bullets were delivered, plus she was holding the rifle, which would have been covered in residue....

It wont let me upload the file...:(

That's a shame Patti!! Sounds very interesting, are you getting an error? Perhaps ngb can help? It defo sounds worth a read!!

Offline Patti

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 10:54:AM »
That's a shame Patti!! Sounds very interesting, are you getting an error? Perhaps ngb can help? It defo sounds worth a read!!

It is Caroline, it is the format on which it is saved. I have changed it, so will try again... :) :) :) :)

Offline Patti

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 10:55:AM »
Wrong one...lol

This is the one...fingers crossed.   :D :D :D :D  Its a document that you will have to save.  :-\ :-\ :-\
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 10:56:AM by Patti »

Caroline R

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 11:30:AM »
Wrong one...lol

This is the one...fingers crossed.   :D :D :D :D  Its a document that you will have to save.  :-\ :-\ :-\

Hi Patti,

Fantastic!! I'm off out in a sec but will look forward to reading it tonight (it will make a much needed and welcome change from watching MORE REPEATS on TV!!)  ;D.


guest1199

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 12:37:PM »
I’m sorry, It seems as though I’m finding it difficult to make myself understood.  The link below shows the rifle being tested by ballistics expert Phillip Boyce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K-ExY65IdM

The question I was asking was:-

....Does anyone know if levels of residue were measured on the hands of the individual testing the gun or on his clothes during this testing.  Also would the level of residue on an individual’s hands vary if the moderator was on or not?

The point being that the police's interpretation of the lead residue when the gun is fired and therefore the amount on Sheila's hands may be different from the testing done by Phillip Boyce.  The other point was does anyone know if the level of residue on the shooters hands varies whether the moderator is on or off.

Also can anyone tell me the total number of shots fired that night.  We know the family received 25 shots but how many missed their targets?  If there were more than 25 it might make the barrel hot enought to make the marks on Nevill's back?

Was there a fire or stove in the room where Nevill's body was found?  Sheila may have done exactly what Phillip Boyce did i.e. heat the end of the muzzle against Nevill's back to see if he was still alive?

Offline Patti

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 12:55:PM »
I’m sorry, It seems as though I’m finding it difficult to make myself understood.  The link below shows the rifle being tested by ballistics expert Phillip Boyce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K-ExY65IdM

The question I was asking was:-

The point being that the police's interpretation of the lead residue when the gun is fired and therefore the amount on Sheila's hands may be different from the testing done by Phillip Boyce.  The other point was does anyone know if the level of residue on the shooters hands varies whether the moderator is on or off.

Also can anyone tell me the total number of shots fired that night.  We know the family received 25 shots but how many missed their targets?  If there were more than 25 it might make the barrel hot enought to make the marks on Nevill's back?

Was there a fire or stove in the room where Nevill's body was found?  Sheila may have done exactly what Phillip Boyce did i.e. heat the end of the muzzle against Nevill's back to see if he was still alive?

Hi Tom

I have a problem with that test, because although the test was done with a replica rifle, the original rifle appeared to malfunction due to mishandling when tested by Fletcher.  This is important in my opinion, because when a bullet is fired it produces hot gasses which project the bullet through the barrel of the rifle. If the gun was damaged at the time Nevill was shot, then it may be possible that the end of the nozzle of the rifle got overheated.  I personally think a test with the said rifle would be more appropriate in this case.

Although the test did rule out that there was not a silencer on the rifle, it is also important to take this into consideration....

There was 25 shots that night.....however, I would like to dispute that.  I also dispute the fact that Nevill was shot 8 times....I believe it could have been 6 or 7 at the most.   :) :) :) :) :)

guest1199

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2012, 03:13:PM »

I have a problem with that test, because although the test was done with a replica rifle, the original rifle appeared to malfunction due to mishandling when tested by Fletcher.  This is important in my opinion, because when a bullet is fired it produces hot gasses which project the bullet through the barrel of the rifle. If the gun was damaged at the time Nevill was shot, then it may be possible that the end of the nozzle of the rifle got overheated.  I personally think a test with the said rifle would be more appropriate in this case.

Although the test did rule out that there was not a silencer on the rifle, it is also important to take this into consideration....

There was 25 shots that night.....however, I would like to dispute that.  I also dispute the fact that Nevill was shot 8 times....I believe it could have been 6 or 7 at the most.

Thanks for the info Patti!!

Anyway!  I thought it would have been a smart move for the ballistics expert to wear gloves and a protective overall during the testing that could have been analysed for lead residue.

I take it you are telling me that the gun could have overheated because it was faulty.  The counter-argument being that it could have become faulty when Nevill was struck with it and perhaps after the shots were fired, which would then make the testing by Phillip Boyce more plausible!

Why would there be any discrepancy over how many shots Nevill took?  The number I have regularly come across is 8 or 9. If it was only 6-7 where did the extra shots end up?  What would the prosecution gain out of this argument? It would be interesting to know how many spent shell-casings were retrieved by the police!

Can you tell me how Malcolm Fletcher would have mishandled the gun to make it malfunction?

Sorry! I have lots to learn about this case! :-[

Offline Patti

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Re: residue!!
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 03:54:PM »
Thanks for the info Patti!!

Anyway!  I thought it would have been a smart move for the ballistics expert to wear gloves and a protective overall during the testing that could have been analysed for lead residue.

I take it you are telling me that the gun could have overheated because it was faulty.  The counter-argument being that it could have become faulty when Nevill was struck with it and perhaps after the shots were fired, which would then make the testing by Phillip Boyce more plausible!

Why would there be any discrepancy over how many shots Nevill took?  The number I have regularly come across is 8 or 9. If it was only 6-7 where did the extra shots end up?  What would the prosecution gain out of this argument? It would be interesting to know how many spent shell-casings were retrieved by the police!

Can you tell me how Malcolm Fletcher would have mishandled the gun to make it malfunction?

Sorry! I have lots to learn about this case! :-[

Hi Tom, please forgive me for disagreeing with you, but I think the experiment of several people firing bullets with unprotected clothing was done in all good faith for it did not mimick the scene it was supposed to have done. Sheila wore no gloves or protective clothing. 

I find it impossible to believe that a woman was in a room where 14 shots were fired and yet has no residue on her at all.  Can I stress that Elliott only did a visual test on her nightdress, no swabs were ever taken. 

Her hand swabs DRH/33 which were taken to lab were rejected, because they arrived with rifles/guns, so therefore run the risk of contamination.  These swabs would not have been re-submitted to the lab because the lab would have still rejected them. 

However, the swabs were re-submitted under exhibit DRH/44 this exhibit number was used twice because it also relates to the bible.  On the re-submission the police did not put on the HoLab form that it was a re-submission, therefore the lab excepted it as a new submission. 

Here is my argument.  It does not matter if Sheila did not shoot anyone, she would have still had residue on her clothing and on her right hand.  Reside spreads like dust, in some cases it can spread for several yards. Residue would have been all over the main bedroom, carpets, bedclothes, on the shooter and on Sheila.  She had taken two shots, there would in no doubt had been reside on her clothing....No proper test was done! She was photographed holding the rifle where residue would be most profound and yet no residue were found on the swabs. 

If the swabs had been retaken, which they should have been, then this would have been done after the PM....and Sheila would have been washed down...hence no residue on her hands....Whoever took the 2nd swabs would have known this....

Sorry this is long  :(

About the bullets.  Well each bullet comes with a weight and when fired it loses that said weight. If It is hits something hard it can either mushroom of fragment.  When you weigh up all the fragments taken from a body and piece it together like a jigzaw, it can make one whole bullet.  In Nevill's case there were too many little fragments and not enough damaged/half/weighty fragments that could weigh up to 8 bullets.

1.19 is a very small fragment that Fletcher regarded as a bullet. Its normal weight would have been just over 4.29? There is no way that this fragment should be regarded as a full bullet, because it might have belonged to another fragment found in the same place of 1.95, which he classes also as a bullet....It is very complicated to write this down...lol  but I have noticed a pattern with the rifle....of which I am not prepared to post about.

I don't thin Fletcher did mishandle the rifle, the rifle was said to malfunction when he tested it.  I am not a gin expert, but my question is this: If the rifle malfunctioned, then was it likely to get overheated when used? 

Sorry this is drawn out, but I am a quiet person of the forum...lol   :) :) :) :)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 03:55:PM by Patti »