Lack of ammunition-handling evidence on Sheila's hands

[Bridget]

I know he reported residue on at least one of the wounds, I'd have to check if it was on both. I agree with you re the swelling and bruising, although that may not be all that is there.

Yes, he says residue marks to both wounds.

[Patti]

Who's he, and how does it disappear (bearing in mind that sniffer dogs can alledgedly smell it days later even after a bath)? What about lead deposits from loading bullets into a magazine?

I don't know who he is...I am trying to find out if residue can disappear after a length of time, because it was 4 weeks before the swabs were tested.....

Not very long.  Studies have shown that a hard slinging or shaking of the hand will scatter some of the particles.  If the hand is rubbed against clothing or wiped with a towel, there’s a good chance that most, if not all, gunshot residue will come off the hands.  If the hands are washed, GSR is most likely gone.

It’s also possible for the police to inadvertently remove gunshot residue from a suspect’s hands during handcuffing.  When an officer handcuffs a suspect, the GSR can be transferred from the suspect’s hands to the handcuffs, and even to the officer’s own hands.

The more time that is placed between the GSR being deposited on the hands and the time the test is performed, the more chance there is for the residue to disappear.

[Patti]

Oh, and dead people don't sweat 

Never said they did...

[Bridget]

I don't know who he is...I am trying to find out if residue can disappear after a length of time, because it was 4 weeks before the swabs were tested.....

Not very long.  Studies have shown that a hard slinging or shaking of the hand will scatter some of the particles.  If the hand is rubbed against clothing or wiped with a towel, there’s a good chance that most, if not all, gunshot residue will come off the hands.  If the hands are washed, GSR is most likely gone.

It’s also possible for the police to inadvertently remove gunshot residue from a suspect’s hands during handcuffing.  When an officer handcuffs a suspect, the GSR can be transferred from the suspect’s hands to the handcuffs, and even to the officer’s own hands.

The more time that is placed between the GSR being deposited on the hands and the time the test is performed, the more chance there is for the residue to disappear.

Yes, but you're talking about GSR on a living person's hands. What we need to know is whether it disappears from a swab over time.

[guest154]

I doubt that residue can fade away over time when it is bagged at the labs. It takes months before swabs are ever tested these days because of the back log that there is in the system - if they could just fade away then there wouldn't be point in ever testing them.

[Bridget]

I doubt that residue can fade away over time when it is bagged at the labs. It takes months before swabs are ever tested these days because of the back log that there is in the system - if they could just fade away then there wouldn't be point in ever testing them.

I agree, and the defence expert would have pointed that out.

[mike tesko]

One of the problems for me regarding the absence or otherwise of residue found on hand swabs taken from Sheila's hands at one time or another (11am, 2:30pm and or 3:15pm) is the fact that non of the control ammunition found on the kitchen worktop was examined for lead deposit to see what it might produce if touched or handled by anyone? This is very interesting since this type of ammunition is known to have been coated by wax, which if applicable in this case, would produce the kind of result which was found upon examination of the swabs (eventually)?

Lets get the facts right, there were 29 control bullets found tipped out on the kitchen  worktop close to the telephone, and these should have been checked for lead deposit capability, rather than rely upon a different batch of .22 ammunition handled by Lab' technicians later on?

[Bridget]

One of the problems for me regarding the absence or otherwise of residue found on hand swabs taken from Sheila's hands at one time or another (11am, 2:30pm and or 3:15pm) is the fact that non of the control ammunition found on the kitchen worktop was examined for lead deposit to see what it might produce if touched or handled by anyone? This is very interesting since this type of ammunition is known to have been coated by wax, which if applicable in this case, would produce the kind of result which was found upon examination of the swabs (eventually)?

Lets get the facts right, there were 29 control bullets found tipped out on the kitchen  worktop close to the telephone, and these should have been checked for lead deposit capability, rather than rely upon a different batch of .22 ammunition handled by Lab' technicians later on?

That's a fair point.

[mike tesko]

One of the problems for me regarding the absence or otherwise of residue found on hand swabs taken from Sheila's hands at one time or another (11am, 2:30pm and or 3:15pm) is the fact that non of the control ammunition found on the kitchen worktop was examined for lead deposit to see what it might produce if touched or handled by anyone? This is very interesting since this type of ammunition is known to have been coated by wax, which if applicable in this case, would produce the kind of result which was found upon examination of the swabs (eventually)?

Lets get the facts right, there were 29 control bullets found tipped out on the kitchen  worktop close to the telephone, and these should have been checked for lead deposit capability, rather than rely upon a different batch of .22 ammunition handled by Lab' technicians later on?

I would like to propose that when the ballistic expert carried out his test firing using this batch of control ammunition, the reason he did not test his own hands for traces of lead deposit from handling those bullets was / is because this batch of ammunition was coated in wax - and he knew this would not produce any evidence if his hands had been swabbed to test for lead deposit through handling this batch iof ammunition? I do not think it is fair to produce results from handling a different batch of .22 ammunition, when all along the original batch that all 25 bullets are supposed to have come from was under the control and in possession of the police and then at the lab after 20th September 1985?

Something dodgy has been going on here - evidence has been manipulated to Jeremy's disadvantage...

[Patti]

Yes, but you're talking about GSR on a living person's hands. What we need to know is whether it disappears from a swab over time.

Bridget I would like to know at what time would it be likely for the residue to start to disappear.

If JB is correct then his sister would have died between the hours of 3:15 to 7:30.

Her right arm was moved, we know that the pictures tell us so.

Her hands were placed into bags.

She was then taken for an PM.

What time did V perform the PM I can't remember off hand.

What time did 1470 take the swabs?

Despite all the mix ups, rejections, labelling etc,  the swabs were not tested till the 17th September.

In my opinion, swabs should have been taken at the crime scene.

Nearly a month passes by......what happened to them?  Did the GSR fade with time from the swabs...

[Nuala]

One of the problems for me regarding the absence or otherwise of residue found on hand swabs taken from Sheila's hands at one time or another (11am, 2:30pm and or 3:15pm) is the fact that non of the control ammunition found on the kitchen worktop was examined for lead deposit to see what it might produce if touched or handled by anyone? This is very interesting since this type of ammunition is known to have been coated by wax, which if applicable in this case, would produce the kind of result which was found upon examination of the swabs (eventually)?

Lets get the facts right, there were 29 control bullets found tipped out on the kitchen  worktop close to the telephone, and these should have been checked for lead deposit capability, rather than rely upon a different batch of .22 ammunition handled by Lab' technicians later on?

Excellent point, Mike, one I invariably forget

[mike tesko]

I think the results taken from the hand swabs from Sheila's hands, was probably accurate and did not contain traces of lead deposit because non would have been produced from handling that batch of .22 ammunition, no matter who handled them - hence the reason why volunteers from the lab' handled a different batch of .22 ammunition...

As far as I am concerned the hand swab evidence should have been deemed inadmissible because it was not the same batch allegedly handled by Sheila...

Nothing could have been, or is any clearer...

It's dodgy evidence introduced to bolster up a dodgy case against an innocent man...

[mike tesko]

It is also very interesting to note, or to find out who actually picked up all (29) those loose control bullets  from the Kitchen worktop? Were these picked up by DC Hammersley, per chance? If so he himself handled the control bullets from the all important batch on the worktop, and it was he who took the hand swabs - if he collected up the control bullets and placed them all back in the box before he took the hand swabs from Sheila, there should have been lead deposit from the hand swabs he took from his own handling of the said control ammunition which Sheila used?

In my view, a total lack of lead deposit on the hand swabs reflects the handling of bullets from the same batch by not only Sheila, but also by DC Hammersley, as well...

[mike tesko]

In any event, DC Hammersley lied about when he supposedly took the all important hand swabs from Sheila's hands, this becomes apparent by the interchangeable exhibit references of DRH/33 and DRH/44, which were given to the hand swabs at one time or another, and also to the bible...

According to DC Hammersley, he took the hand swabs from Sheila's hands at the scene at about 11am, yet interestingly enough he did not take other related exhibits from the autopsy bearing lower exhibit references on the afternoon of 7th August 1985:-

[mike tesko]

The ballistic expert, Fletcher was negligent for not taking swabs from any of the 29 control bullets in his possession, for comparison tests carried out on the hand swabs taken from Sheila?