Nevill's Premonition?

[Nickos]

Do we think they are similar?

I don't think the comparison burns marks are similar.

The diagram below is what I produced (re position).

[Lugg]

I don't think the comparison burns marks are similar.

The diagram below is what I produced (re position).

I have to agree with you here. Personally I don't think the test burns are similar to Ralph's burns. 100,000 quid? Blimey.

[ngb1066]

I have to agree with you here. Personally I don't think the test burns are similar to Ralph's burns. 100,000 quid? Blimey.

I think they were similar.  However, it does not matter what I think, the important point is that Dr Caruso, a leading burns specialist, thought they were similar.

 

[Lugg]

I think they were similar.  However, it does not matter what I think, the important point is that Dr Caruso, a leading burns specialist, thought they were similar.

Unfortunately those that had power to refer Jeremy to the court of appeal apparently did not think so? And you know how the two judges ruled that all the panel at the CCRC were qualified and scientifically trained to make a perfect deduction upon this evidence. (I'm being sarcastic of course. The CCRC being the butt of my sarcasm)

[killingeve]

I was going to say what address, but I have just clicked. I have the original record if you want it.

I'm not saying that Fletcher does say contact shots, but if memory serves me right some are very close....the furthest away being two feet...could be yards. I have the doc on a memory stick and I am too shattered to get it out, plus I have several and don't know which one it is on......Its on here somewhere....I do wish someone would put docs in the archives...life would be lovely...

Those two truly lovely scrumptious darlings Caroline and April might help?   

Hi Patti

Yeltrah has made available the very sad info re the shots (plse see thread) from the ballistics expert.  According to this poor little Nicholas was the only victim to have received a definite contact shot.  In fact he received two.  So surely statistically there would be a much greater probability of his blood finding its way into the silencer/gun via back spatter than that of the other victims?  There appears to be conflicting evidence of SC's blood and/or an intimate mixture of June and NB's blood with no firm evidence of contact shots?  Vanezis pm reports state SC's wounds were contact or near contact and he makes no ref to the other victims.  As I understand it back spatter is normally only possible with contact shots.   

Blood test results:

                                ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1
Blood Sample           A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

[Nickos]

I think they were similar.  However, it does not matter what I think, the important point is that Dr Caruso, a leading burns specialist, thought they were similar.

We all see things differently I guess.

I see the burn marks to Nevill as being more indented (dipped) in the middle, and imo caused by a more solid and round ended implement (e.g. a poker)

The test burns from a gun barrel as presented in the photo , even at 200 deg c., have only caused circular (edge only) burns, and have not actually penetrated the skin (as with Nevills burns).

[-Harters-]

Hi Patti

Yeltrah has made available the very sad info re the shots (plse see thread) from the ballistics expert.  According to this poor little Nicholas was the only victim to have received a definite contact shot.  In fact he received two.  So surely statistically there would be a much greater probability of his blood finding its way into the silencer/gun via back spatter than that of the other victims?  There appears to be conflicting evidence of SC's blood and/or an intimate mixture of June and NB's blood with no firm evidence of contact shots?  Vanezis pm reports state SC's wounds were contact or near contact and he makes no ref to the other victims.  As I understand it back spatter is normally only possible with contact shots.   

Blood test results:

                                ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1
Blood Sample           A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

Dr Fowler, of the recent JR fame, indicates in the judgement in paragraph 34, that Ralph had residue consistant with contact shots.

Also the 2002 appeal and the associated blood evidence indicates that Sheila, Ralph & Junes blood was present in the silencer. I also thought I had read that another male blood had been detected which they attributed to one of the twins, but I can't seem to find where I read that now. 

[-Harters-]

I think they were similar.  However, it does not matter what I think, the important point is that Dr Caruso, a leading burns specialist, thought they were similar.

Caruso's evidence was quite brief wasn't it? Consisting of two very short letters, one a quarter of a page long, the second even shorter.

Is there any prospect of seeing his evidence on the forum. His evidence hasn't actually been accepted or contested has it?

[ngb1066]

Caruso's evidence was quite brief wasn't it? Consisting of two very short letters, one a quarter of a page long, the second even shorter.

Is there any prospect of seeing his evidence on the forum. His evidence hasn't actually been accepted or contested has it?

Dr Caruso's report was a preliminary one.  It was nevertheless very clear.

The report has not been published by the defence yet.  I anticipate further work being carried out leading to a full and final report.  I anticipate that at some stage this will be made public.  Obviously until that stage it would not be appropriate to post this material on the forum, although personally I would have no objection to it being made public now.

 

[-Harters-]

Dr Caruso's report was a preliminary one.  It was nevertheless very clear.

The report has not been published by the defence yet.  I anticipate further work being carried out leading to a full and final report.  I anticipate that at some stage this will be made public.  Obviously until that stage it would not be appropriate to post this material on the forum, although personally I would have no objection to it being made public now.

Okay, it was worth a try. 

[lookout]

And I see those burns as being those of a lit cigar because of the definition of them. Sheila smoked the larger ones,,which,with each drag,burning bright red,  would have perhaps resembled the end of a rifle placed on bare flesh, but would have left the indentations such as are photographed.

[susan]

Lookout  I agree with you cigar burns would have made marks similar to those on Ralphs back or the heated rifle but not for the poker idea too pointed the end.

[lookout]

Lookout  I agree with you cigar burns would have made marks similar to those on Ralphs back or the heated rifle but not for the poker idea too pointed the end.

I doubt that there'd be any time wasted in heating up the rifle,Susan. Sheila would have been puffing away in between delivering chapter and verse to her father.Easy enough to get rid of the evidence with the Aga being there. There wasn't any discolouration to the guns barrel as having been heated.

[ngb1066]

I doubt that there'd be any time wasted in heating up the rifle,Susan. Sheila would have been puffing away in between delivering chapter and verse to her father.Easy enough to get rid of the evidence with the Aga being there. There wasn't any discolouration to the guns barrel as having been heated.

There would not necessarily be any disclolouration if the end of the barrel was heated to around 200 degrees C.

[-Harters-]

Lookout  I agree with you cigar burns would have made marks similar to those on Ralphs back or the heated rifle but not for the poker idea too pointed the end.

Based solely on the visual appearance in the image posted by Nickos, they do not appear similar, I don't know about a cigar/cigarette burn, I think the marks are too severe and a cigar might not be robust enough to make all three marks.
A poker still seems plausable depending on the shape and they did find one in the gun cupboard next to the silencer, so maybe. 

Of course I'm no burns expert, so what do I know.