Author Topic: Nevill's Premonition?  (Read 30155 times)

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Lugg

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2013, 06:56:PM »
I don't know why the amount can't be deducted from the compensation that Jeremy is due anyway,,for his wrongful and very unsafe conviction and dodgy trial.
My view is that if he is found to be innocent then then the Crown should pay.

Offline lookout

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #136 on: January 07, 2013, 07:03:PM »
My view is that if he is found to be innocent then then the Crown should pay.


Somebody should,Lugg,,as it's my firm belief that he is innocent,there's no doubt in my mind at all.

Lugg

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #137 on: January 07, 2013, 07:07:PM »

Somebody should,Lugg,,as it's my firm belief that he is innocent,there's no doubt in my mind at all.
Well I'm inclined to believe that he is innocent myself. But who really knows? Only Bamber knows whether he is innocent or not. What causes me to question his guilt is the fact that so many students of law and even qualified lawyers themselves say so as well.

Offline lookout

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #138 on: January 07, 2013, 08:08:PM »
Well I'm inclined to believe that he is innocent myself. But who really knows? Only Bamber knows whether he is innocent or not. What causes me to question his guilt is the fact that so many students of law and even qualified lawyers themselves say so as well.


Lugg,,I believe it was the two women in that house,,and that June had grabbed the rifle after having been shot in her bed 5 times before she got up and shot Sheila. There were signs of a struggle between both women,with Sheila being bruised as was June who also had marks of a " dug-in " fingernail/s.

Lugg

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #139 on: January 07, 2013, 08:47:PM »

Lugg,,I believe it was the two women in that house,,and that June had grabbed the rifle after having been shot in her bed 5 times before she got up and shot Sheila. There were signs of a struggle between both women,with Sheila being bruised as was June who also had marks of a " dug-in " fingernail/s.
Hmm, interesting.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2013, 12:33:PM »
As Simon McKay was only instructed in September 2011 and time was an issue given the final deadline of 31st January were the tests a late addition to the CCRC submission at Simon's request or were they being planned prior to McKay law being instructed?


If so what was the main focus of the submission prior Simon McKay's involvement.

The tests and reports commissioned from experts in the US were not planned prior to Simon McKay being instructed. 

There were a number of submissions made before Simon McKay was instructed, including those based upon Peter Sutherst's reports about the scratches.


Offline Nickos

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2013, 11:41:AM »
The tests and reports commissioned from experts in the US were not planned prior to Simon McKay being instructed. 

There were a number of submissions made before Simon McKay was instructed, including those based upon Peter Sutherst's reports about the scratches.

Hi ngb,

Were Sutherst’s Aga surround findings (previously dismissed by the CCRC) re-submitted with new photographic evidence as part of SMack’s appeal?

It's difficult to understand Sutherst “expert” opinion v’s the CCRC’s "expert" opinion.

There are either scratches, or there aren’t scratches!
 
I believe the CCRC suggested Sutherst’s findings were based on the wrong part of the Aga surround, or wrong angle??

Did Sutherst (with SMack) attempt to overcome the CCRC’s response?

Reality Check - What evidence is there to free JB? Answers on a very small postcard!

Offline curiousessex

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2013, 11:45:AM »
The tests and reports commissioned from experts in the US were not planned prior to Simon McKay being instructed. 

There were a number of submissions made before Simon McKay was instructed, including those based upon Peter Sutherst's reports about the scratches.


I have read on other threads on the forum that Peter Sutherst did not resist the CCRC’s response to the content of his submission. As such one could read into the situation Peter Sutherst  took the money for doing a report within some limited terms of reference but has not since reinforced that report when it was challenged by a counter viewpoint / argument from the CCRC.

I think it has been stated Peter Sutherst is no longer being retained by the defence for the purposes of Jeremy’s bid for freedom / campaign. Such action could indicate the defence do not have much faith in their own strategy or have since lost faith with the argument being presented.

Wherever one looks in this case it appears it is still all about the money.

Sutherst takes the money to do the work but is unable to push his work over the finishing line….. more tests need to be done which I would imagine would mean more fees and yet more money.

I suspect when Simon McKay was instructed he knew / soon became aware the Sutherst angle was an effective dead duck before the CCRC…….. Hence another angle needed to be looked into in order to add some weight to what was fast becoming Jeremy’s ailing CCRC submission. Otherwise it would be back to the beginning of the queue with another further application together with many more years of wait as a new application is progressed.

However, in the meantime the CCRC are playing a blinder.... they offer Jeremy’s team numerous extensions to the CCRC detailed time limits for responses to be prepared. The CCRC also allow more content to be added to the submissions.

If Jeremy was to be successful in getting his conviction quashed I think all would agree a claim for compensation could result in many millions of pounds being received. Not to mention any potential civil claims that might be made on members of the family.

This could be a good business opportunity for a return if someone was prepared to initiate and invest in some forensic tests which could cast some doubt on the safety of Jeremy’s conviction. (Note we are not talking about proving Jeremy to be innocent or proving Sheila to be guilty only the casting of enough doubt on the safety of the conviction which would lead to the conviction being quashed before the Court of Appeal……. then the claims for compensation could begin. Given the historical claims for money that have been made by Jeremy in the civil courts I think it is a very reasonable to assume various claims for compensation would be made by Jeremy if released……… Again all about the money)

Business in general is about a view to risk and the opportunity of making some money in return. As such depending upon the view to risk some may think it might be worth taking a punt on funding some forensic tests in the case of Jeremy Bamber.

Lets play the game...... a budget is allocated.

Should the allocated budget be spent on doing further tests with Peter Sutherst………. No

However, the burn marks on Neville’s back remained unexplained. Could there be any mileage in doing some tests which could provide a possible explanation and cast some doubt on Jeremy’s conviction?

Take a punt.

Spend the allocated budget of say £10,000 on some preliminary tests in Arizona and see what comes back. The full tests could be £100,000 or more which in most people’s book would be a lot of money………In all honesty probably more money than the punt would be worth although this would depend upon ones view to risk and the amount of disposable money available……….. Again all about the money.

The limited Arizona firing tests with pig skin specifically relating to the burn marks on Nevill’s back are conducted. Maybe the allocated budget will generate reports which could provide a possible explanation for the burn marks which would then undermine the original case as heard before the court etc.

The test reports, as issued by the experts, are included within the CCRC submission. The issued reports detail more tests are needed. Such tests I would imagine would need to be funded…………… Again all about the money.

The CCRC issue their final decision / report and detail they will not be referring Jeremy’s conviction to the Court of Appeal.

The CCRC decision becomes the subject of a Judicial Review which is both on paper and then before the Court. The Judicial Review fails and a transcript of the hearing is available and has since been published on the forum.

Maybe if the initial punt money budget had been closer to £100,000 then all the Arizona tests could have been done and a more complete submission could have been made to the CCRC. (However, there is no telling what conclusions all of the necessary Arizona tests would have reached. Such conclusions may have been no good to Jeremy’s defence and may not have cast any doubt on the safety of the conviction)

According to the case of the prosecution the original motive was all about the money.

In my opinion after 27 years nothing appears to have really changed.

However with the passage and in the fullness of time it may be the case Jeremy will need to share any possible compensation with some or a single benefactor who would be prepared to fund some very expensive forensic tests……………. Again all about the money.

-Harters-

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2013, 11:46:AM »
Hi ngb,

Were Sutherst’s Aga surround findings (previously dismissed by the CCRC) re-submitted with new photographic evidence as part of SMack’s appeal?

It's difficult to understand Sutherst “expert” opinion v’s the CCRC’s "expert" opinion.

There are either scratches, or there aren’t scratches!
 
I believe the CCRC suggested Sutherst’s findings were based on the wrong part of the Aga surround, or wrong angle??

Did Sutherst (with SMack) attempt to overcome the CCRC’s response?

Hi Nick, I don't mean to answer for NGB, but from what I understood Simon Mackay didn't submit or resubmit anything that had been preliminarily refused, i.e he only dealt with submitting new silencer/burns evidence and didn't respond the the preliminary refused items. If that makes sense?  :-\

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2013, 11:54:AM »
Hi ngb,

Were Sutherst’s Aga surround findings (previously dismissed by the CCRC) re-submitted with new photographic evidence as part of SMack’s appeal?

No.  Simon Makay's submissions were entirely new and not based upon anything submitted previously.

Quote

It's difficult to understand Sutherst “expert” opinion v’s the CCRC’s "expert" opinion.

There are either scratches, or there aren’t scratches!
 
I believe the CCRC suggested Sutherst’s findings were based on the wrong part of the Aga surround, or wrong angle??

The CCRC's expert suggested that Sutherst's conclusion that there was no scratch at the time the original crime scene photographs were taken was flawed in that Sutherst had not established that the specific photographs he had examined depicted the correct area of the Aga surround.  Further work would be required to establish this.  Some of that work has been undertaken but a planned inspection at WHF did not take place.

Quote
Did Sutherst (with SMack) attempt to overcome the CCRC’s response?

No.  Simon Mckay focussed his attention on the silencer evidence which he regarded as the fundamental element of the prosecution case.  He undertook no further work on Sutherst's report.

 

Offline Nickos

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2013, 12:22:PM »
Hi Nick, I don't mean to answer for NGB, but from what I understood Simon Mackay didn't submit or resubmit anything that had been preliminarily refused, i.e he only dealt with submitting new silencer/burns evidence and didn't respond the the preliminary refused items. If that makes sense?  :-\

Yes, that makes sense, and confirms the Sutherst Photographic issue to be a dead end.

I had a particular interest in this point, as it was Sutherts findings that prompted the Sunday Times Article 11/07/10, which in turn got me interested in the case.

Reality Check - What evidence is there to free JB? Answers on a very small postcard!

Offline Nickos

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2013, 12:25:PM »

I have read on other threads on the forum that Peter Sutherst did not resist the CCRC’s response to the content of his submission. As such one could read into the situation Peter Sutherst  took the money for doing a report within some limited terms of reference but has not since reinforced that report when it was challenged by a counter viewpoint / argument from the CCRC.

I think it has been stated Peter Sutherst is no longer being retained by the defence for the purposes of Jeremy’s bid for freedom / campaign. Such action could indicate the defence do not have much faith in their own strategy or have since lost faith with the argument being presented.

Wherever one looks in this case it appears it is still all about the money.

Sutherst takes the money to do the work but is unable to push his work over the finishing line….. more tests need to be done which I would imagine would mean more fees and yet more money.

I suspect when Simon McKay was instructed he knew / soon became aware the Sutherst angle was an effective dead duck before the CCRC…….. Hence another angle needed to be looked into in order to add some weight to what was fast becoming Jeremy’s ailing CCRC submission. Otherwise it would be back to the beginning of the queue with another further application together with many more years of wait as a new application is progressed.

However, in the meantime the CCRC are playing a blinder.... they offer Jeremy’s team numerous extensions to the CCRC detailed time limits for responses to be prepared. The CCRC also allow more content to be added to the submissions.

If Jeremy was to be successful in getting his conviction quashed I think all would agree a claim for compensation could result in many millions of pounds being received. Not to mention any potential civil claims that might be made on members of the family.

This could be a good business opportunity for a return if someone was prepared to initiate and invest in some forensic tests which could cast some doubt on the safety of Jeremy’s conviction. (Note we are not talking about proving Jeremy to be innocent or proving Sheila to be guilty only the casting of enough doubt on the safety of the conviction which would lead to the conviction being quashed before the Court of Appeal……. then the claims for compensation could begin. Given the historical claims for money that have been made by Jeremy in the civil courts I think it is a very reasonable to assume various claims for compensation would be made by Jeremy if released……… Again all about the money)

Business in general is about a view to risk and the opportunity of making some money in return. As such depending upon the view to risk some may think it might be worth taking a punt on funding some forensic tests in the case of Jeremy Bamber.

Lets play the game...... a budget is allocated.

Should the allocated budget be spent on doing further tests with Peter Sutherst………. No

However, the burn marks on Neville’s back remained unexplained. Could there be any mileage in doing some tests which could provide a possible explanation and cast some doubt on Jeremy’s conviction?

Take a punt.

Spend the allocated budget of say £10,000 on some preliminary tests in Arizona and see what comes back. The full tests could be £100,000 or more which in most people’s book would be a lot of money………In all honesty probably more money than the punt would be worth although this would depend upon ones view to risk and the amount of disposable money available……….. Again all about the money.

The limited Arizona firing tests with pig skin specifically relating to the burn marks on Nevill’s back are conducted. Maybe the allocated budget will generate reports which could provide a possible explanation for the burn marks which would then undermine the original case as heard before the court etc.

The test reports, as issued by the experts, are included within the CCRC submission. The issued reports detail more tests are needed. Such tests I would imagine would need to be funded…………… Again all about the money.

The CCRC issue their final decision / report and detail they will not be referring Jeremy’s conviction to the Court of Appeal.

The CCRC decision becomes the subject of a Judicial Review which is both on paper and then before the Court. The Judicial Review fails and a transcript of the hearing is available and has since been published on the forum.

Maybe if the initial punt money budget had been closer to £100,000 then all the Arizona tests could have been done and a more complete submission could have been made to the CCRC. (However, there is no telling what conclusions all of the necessary Arizona tests would have reached. Such conclusions may have been no good to Jeremy’s defence and may not have cast any doubt on the safety of the conviction)

According to the case of the prosecution the original motive was all about the money.

In my opinion after 27 years nothing appears to have really changed.

However with the passage and in the fullness of time it may be the case Jeremy will need to share any possible compensation with some or a single benefactor who would be prepared to fund some very expensive forensic tests……………. Again all about the money.

Good post Curious!!
Reality Check - What evidence is there to free JB? Answers on a very small postcard!

-Harters-

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2013, 12:32:PM »
Yes, that makes sense, and confirms the Sutherst Photographic issue to be a dead end.

I had a particular interest in this point, as it was Sutherts findings that prompted the Sunday Times Article 11/07/10, which in turn got me interested in the case.

The reports and media releases regarding Suthersts evidence was quite compelling and convincing on the face of it. Clearly given the outcome to date, it wasn't quite as portrayed in the media.

I suspect that if further tests were carried out to respond to the CCRCs points of refusal, then Sutherst or another expert could further this line of enquiry in a future application perhaps.

I agree with you that I personally think it is a dead end, regardless of any future work.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 12:44:PM by Yeltrah »

Offline curiousessex

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #148 on: January 09, 2013, 02:31:PM »
Good post Curious!!

Thank you Nick(os)

Offline Patti

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Re: Nevill's Premonition?
« Reply #149 on: January 09, 2013, 05:51:PM »
Hi All :)

It's already proven that silencer was not on the rifle when Sheila was shot.  So what does that tell us? Does it tell us that Sheila sat and waited for the killer to take the silencer off the rifle? There was no signs of a struggle was there!

I keep harping on about the cushions, but no one appears curious as to why they were there, or who put them there.  They are placed on the top of a pair of trousers and a white tea shirt.  They have blood transfer stains on them.  This means that someone had sat on them or laid on them in front of the Aga.  You normally place your head or your bum on cushions...yeah?

Behind those cushions is a door on the Aga a very hot door, which holds the ashes. Above that is a drum  which holds the coals.    Nevill smoked, yet we see no ash tray in the kitchen...So where did he put his cigarettes and where did Sheila put hers?????

The rifle could have been placed on the top of the Aga which is very hot, or could have been used to poke something into the coals to burn.....Could Nevill have sat there? Could Sheila have sat on the cushions?  There were blood on the back of Sheila's nightdress at the bottom....it is said to have been June's....Did forensics ever take the cushions to tested? I guess not! So we will never know.  Just thinking out loud lol  :) :) :)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 05:53:PM by Patti »