Example of how Relatives Names are Blackened.

[petey]

Hi Petey, I do hope that your post was not aimed at me?
I have no intention of blackening the names of anyone.For instance,my husband knows Peter Eaton,has worked at the farm, and found him to be a pleasant,friendly,kind and hospitable man.
I am simply questioning the anomalies in the evidence and witness statements........in order to "get to the bottom" of this case..........and that is all!

Why would my post be aimed at you?

It was a generic post and I quoted a previous post made by Roch.

If you meet the criteria I set out in my post, then yes it is aimed at you. If not, then no it is not.

[tyler]

Hi tyler I am sure petey could not be aiming his post at you I have always found your posts very respectful to other people's feelings and you just try to seek the truth.

Ah bless you Susan!
I do, in fact,believe that the relatives really do believe that Jeremy is guilty.And I believe that they desperately searched for evidence to back up their beliefs........but to no avail.
Of coarse they deserve our sympathy for the terrible tragedy that befell them,but they (rightly or wrongly) involved themselves in the case and therefore now,for ever more,will be debated within the case.How can they not? They were prosecution witnesses!Since many of us believe that a massive miscarriage of justice has occurred in this case,then unfortunately the inconsistencies in the relatives statements need to be debated.Just as they are with JB'S,JM'S,EP'S etc.

[petey]

Petey, if it is "entirely possible that JB is innocent" why have the family NEVER looked at that possibility?
It is only my personal opinion that it is entirely possible that JB is innocent. The relatives may be 100% convinced by what they heard in court that JB is 100% guilty. I couldn't possibly answer for them of their beliefs.Why have they never tried to help their nephew prove it? I believe that during an interview it was said of Jeremy that he is only carrying on with his quest to get at them. I wonder, if this is true, why they believe themselves, after 27years, to be Jeremy's prime focus and the only reason he's trying to prove his innocence.

Re information withheld. I feel certain that both sides wonder what is being hidden. If it has no bearing on innocence or guilt what's the problem with revealing it.It may be photos showing police behaving disrespectfully or detailed photos of wounds suffered by the twins etc none of which would be beneficial to be revealed. Should it conclusively prove guilt, so be it........but I imagine it doesn't or it would have been used to do just that.

I fully concur with you that none of us here can possibly imagine what it must be like to have ones family taken in such a violent manner.

[Lugg]

Why would my post be aimed at you?

It was a generic post and I quoted a previous post made by Roch.

If you meet the criteria I set out in my post, then yes it is aimed at you. If not, then no it is not.

I think that your post was quite balanced Petey. There is absolutely no evidence that the relatives acted in a criminal way and they have indeed received so much flak that they do not deserve. No one it seems think of the children of the relatives and that such a terrible event that happened 27 years ago must have traumatised them in an unimaginable way. This in turn put even greater pressure onto the parents of those children. Remember these children used to play with Sheila's twins.
However, having said that I do think that Tyler has asked some very pertinent questions regarding the case.

[mertol22]

Let's look at the KNOWN facts of this case.

1) Whether JB is innocent or guilty, ALL of the relatives are VICTIMS in this crime as 3 generations of a family were wiped out in a terrible manner. This means that my starting point with respect to the relatives is always one of sympathy to start with after what they have been through.

2) Just imagine for 1 minute that JB is guilty, or at least the relatives are 100% convinced that he is guilty. How do you think the relatives feel when 27 years after the horrific events they still have to relive the awful memories of that tragic day. Not a day goes by on this forum without somebody posting negatively about the relatives and besmirching them in some way.

3) I think it is pretty much accepted by most people that the police investigation was not great. However, all of us posters on this forum do not know the extent of what information is being witheld. Sure it would be great if everything was disclosed, but there might be completely genuine reasons why some is not, which has no bearing at all on JB's innocence or guilt.

4) To me if there are some photos which are being witheld because they show police officers 'larking around' or being disresepctful, whereas on the one hand this is wrong, it is a secondary issue and I have no desire to see such photos. The ONLY evidence I would like to see which has not been disclosed is any evidence which points towards JBs guilt or innocence. Currently as far as im aware, given that we dont know what has not been disclosed, we don't know if such evidence exists.

5) Finally, numerous posters and posts on this forum have been made about the relatives ' conspiring together to frame JB' and 'knowing he is innocent' and ' doing everything they can to ensure he never gets out, even tho they know he is innocent'.  NOWHERE is there ANY compelling evidence that any of this is true. To me making any such statements is massively disrespectful to the relatives, particularly given that there is no evidence any of it is true.

Moving forwards, of course I want to debate and see people debate whether JB is guilty or innocent and debate which way the evidence points. However, personally I think posters need to be and should be very very careful with what they post.  Of course it is fine to think JB is innocent and debate evidence issues relating to this (I personally still think he is prob innocent). BUT just because posters have a belief JB is innocent, doesn't mean they have to blacken the names of the relatives an accuse them of all kinds of conspiracies, with NO COMPELLING EVIDENCE. Remember they are victims too and have been for 27 years.

It is entirely possible that JB is innocent and the relatives do not know this and currently 100% believe him guilty therefore are obviously extremely negative towards him.

Only if new evidence came out that portrayed the relatives in a new negative light would I look to criticise or attack them on the forum, as currently with no evidence to the contrary they are victims of a horrific crime and are still having their names dragged through the mud 27 years later.

Wanting to believe JB guilty and not thinking him guilty ,one must be as much as possible neutral , but how can you believe both ? there is either one right, then none of its true , well may be some of it, because we would not really know what to do if such alternate data surfaced,

[Roch]

Let's look at the KNOWN facts of this case.

1) Whether JB is innocent or guilty, ALL of the relatives are VICTIMS in this crime as 3 generations of a family were wiped out in a terrible manner. This means that my starting point with respect to the relatives is always one of sympathy to start with after what they have been through.

2) Just imagine for 1 minute that JB is guilty, or at least the relatives are 100% convinced that he is guilty. How do you think the relatives feel when 27 years after the horrific events they still have to relive the awful memories of that tragic day. Not a day goes by on this forum without somebody posting negatively about the relatives and besmirching them in some way.

3) I think it is pretty much accepted by most people that the police investigation was not great. However, all of us posters on this forum do not know the extent of what information is being witheld. Sure it would be great if everything was disclosed, but there might be completely genuine reasons why some is not, which has no bearing at all on JB's innocence or guilt.

4) To me if there are some photos which are being witheld because they show police officers 'larking around' or being disresepctful, whereas on the one hand this is wrong, it is a secondary issue and I have no desire to see such photos. The ONLY evidence I would like to see which has not been disclosed is any evidence which points towards JBs guilt or innocence. Currently as far as im aware, given that we dont know what has not been disclosed, we don't know if such evidence exists.

5) Finally, numerous posters and posts on this forum have been made about the relatives ' conspiring together to frame JB' and 'knowing he is innocent' and ' doing everything they can to ensure he never gets out, even tho they know he is innocent'.  NOWHERE is there ANY compelling evidence that any of this is true. To me making any such statements is massively disrespectful to the relatives, particularly given that there is no evidence any of it is true.

Moving forwards, of course I want to debate and see people debate whether JB is guilty or innocent and debate which way the evidence points. However, personally I think posters need to be and should be very very careful with what they post.  Of course it is fine to think JB is innocent and debate evidence issues relating to this (I personally still think he is prob innocent). BUT just because posters have a belief JB is innocent, doesn't mean they have to blacken the names of the relatives an accuse them of all kinds of conspiracies, with NO COMPELLING EVIDENCE. Remember they are victims too and have been for 27 years.

It is entirely possible that JB is innocent and the relatives do not know this and currently 100% believe him guilty therefore are obviously extremely negative towards him.

Only if new evidence came out that portrayed the relatives in a new negative light would I look to criticise or attack them on the forum, as currently with no evidence to the contrary they are victims of a horrific crime and are still having their names dragged through the mud 27 years later.

Petey there are a whole raft of KNOWN discrepancies regarding the silencer evidence.  The relatives allegedly FOUND the silencer.  The silencer along with other, arguably hearsay testimony, convicted JB.
The case is notoriously controversial for having been subjected to significant non disclosure and withholding of evidence and the employment of exemptions to get around disclosure.  How likely is it, that absolutely none of this un disclosed material, whether secreted away by means other than PII or whether under the PII umbrella, is NOT exculpatory?

[petey]

Petey there are a whole raft of KNOWN discrepancies regarding the silencer evidence.  The relatives allegedly FOUND the silencer.  The silencer along with other, arguably hearsay testimony, convicted JB.
The case is notoriously controversial for having been subjected to significant non disclosure and withholding of evidence and the employment of exemptions to get around disclosure.  How likely is it, that absolutely none of this un disclosed material, whether secreted away by means other than PII or whether under the PII umbrella, is NOT exculpatory?

The silencer evidence did NOT convict JB. Of course it was a factor in at trial, but other perhaps more compelling (because it was believed) evidence came from Julie. Also the judge said that if the court did not believe Neville had made a call to JB then that alone could be enough to convict him.

I have no idea the relative weight of material not disclosed through PII. I do know there are justifiable reasons for not dislosing some forms of evidence (eg graphic photos of injuries to twins or any of the other victims, photos of Sheila where she is in a state of undress etc) Equally although not justifiable, there are understandable reasons why evidence such as police officers behaving disrespectfully would not be disclosed, especially if this had no regard to guilt or innocence.

The overall gist of my original post is that on this forum, the relatives are continually treated in an absolute appalling manner by a number of posters given that they are also victims of this crime.  It is one thing questionning evidence they have provided and debating this, but quite another claiming they are part of a conspiracy to stitch up JB and ensure he remains in jail even tho they know he is innocent.

[Roch]

The silencer evidence did NOT convict JB. Of course it was a factor in at trial, but other perhaps more compelling (because it was believed) evidence came from Julie. Also the judge said that if the court did not believe Neville had made a call to JB then that alone could be enough to convict him.

I have no idea the relative weight of material not disclosed through PII. I do know there are justifiable reasons for not dislosing some forms of evidence (eg graphic photos of injuries to twins or any of the other victims, photos of Sheila where she is in a state of undress etc) Equally although not justifiable, there are understandable reasons why evidence such as police officers behaving disrespectfully would not be disclosed, especially if this had no regard to guilt or innocence.

The overall gist of my original post is that on this forum, the relatives are continually treated in an absolute appalling manner by a number of posters given that they are also victims of this crime.  It is one thing questionning evidence they have provided and debating this, but quite another claiming they are part of a conspiracy to stitch up JB and ensure he remains in jail even tho they know he is innocent.

The argument seems to be that they genuinely DID believe he did it and went looking for evidence to that effect.  The argument is that elements within the police accommodated them, for whatever reason, in effect undermining those who would not accommodate them. 

Why are you trying to play down non-disclosure, by using the larking around photos?  The larking around photos were released, where they not?  Also, are you saying respect should be issued in BLANKET form, on the grounds their being victims, regardless of widely held and consistent concerns relating to their testimony, closeness towards some police officers and seeming unwillingness to delve in to any alternative scenario other than JB being guilty, even for example, when such glaring inconsistencies come to light (2004 logs) that should be ringing alarm bells?  The explanations given to counteract said documents being uniform and unsigned statements from raid team members?

[petey]

The argument seems to be that they genuinely DID believe he did it and went looking for evidence to that effect.  The argument is that elements within the police accommodated them, for whatever reason, in effect undermining those who would not accommodate them. 

Why are you trying to play down non-disclosure, by using the larking around photos?  The larking around photos were released, where they not?  Also, are you saying respect should be issued in BLANKET form, on the grounds their being victims, regardless of widely held and consistent concerns relating to their testimony, closeness towards some police officers and seeming unwillingness to delve in to any alternative scenario other than JB being guilty, even for example, when such glaring inconsistencies come to light (2004 logs) that should be ringing alarm bells?  The explanations given to counteract said documents being uniform and unsigned statements from raid team members?

We will agree to disagree.

I personally think the relatives are treated appallingly on this forum.

If I saw COMPELLING evidence that they were Liars, Cheats, Conspirators etc maybe I would change my tune. Until this point I sympathise with them as victims of an appalling tragedy.

I can say with 100% certainty that if a member of my family was killed in such tragic circumstances and I 100% believed that the correct man had been convicted and sent to prison, then the second the trial ended I would do everything I could to try and move on from what happened.

 I would find it unbelievably difficult if some 27 years later posters on a JB forum were still questionning my role and what I might have done / could have done / should have done and then accusing me of being part of a conspiracy to lock up an innocent man.

[Roch]

We will agree to disagree.

I personally think the relatives are treated appallingly on this forum.

If I saw COMPELLING evidence that they were Liars, Cheats, Conspirators etc maybe I would change my tune. Until this point I sympathise with them as victims of an appalling tragedy.

I can say with 100% certainty that if a member of my family was killed in such tragic circumstances and I 100% believed that the correct man had been convicted and sent to prison, then the second the trial ended I would do everything I could to try and move on from what happened.

 I would find it unbelievably difficult if some 27 years later posters on a JB forum were still questionning my role and what I might have done / could have done / should have done and then accusing me of being part of a conspiracy to lock up an innocent man.

We will agree to disagree. 

[jon]

We will agree to disagree.

I personally think the relatives are treated appallingly on this forum.

If I saw COMPELLING evidence that they were Liars, Cheats, Conspirators etc maybe I would change my tune. Until this point I sympathise with them as victims of an appalling tragedy.

I can say with 100% certainty that if a member of my family was killed in such tragic circumstances and I 100% believed that the correct man had been convicted and sent to prison, then the second the trial ended I would do everything I could to try and move on from what happened.

 I would find it unbelievably difficult if some 27 years later posters on a JB forum were still questionning my role and what I might have done / could have done / should have done and then accusing me of being part of a conspiracy to lock up an innocent man.

Petey , you should know better than most about non disclosure by police , did JB not face the same difficulties Liverpudlians faced ? , why did JB have to take EP to court for them to release ' phone log's ' after 20 year's , then to be sent only a faxed version of them ?

Do you find it believable that four policemen could search a small cupboard and not find a silencer with blood upon it , then the family find it ?

Do you believe RWB , when he claimed JB said ' he could kill his parent's ?

Is there a scenario in your mind , where JB is innocent and the family have had no input in setting him up ? I would like to hear it !!

IMO , there is no getting away from believing JB is innocent and the family not being deceitful , whether that be a case of ' noble cause corruption ' or ' a blatant set up ' !!

My deepest sympathies go to them over their loss's !!

[mertol22]

The fact is there is doubt as to how evidence came to light, if the relatives remotely believed jeremy had something to do with it they should have expressed their concernes and from there leave it to the police to act , had that been done in the first place i believe jeremy would never be where he is today, the police then and as today are paid a wage many will never have and thats what they are paid for .

[petey]

Petey , you should know better than most about non disclosure by police , did JB not face the same difficulties Liverpudlians faced ? , why did JB have to take EP to court for them to release ' phone log's ' after 20 year's , then to be sent only a faxed version of them ?

Do you find it believable that four policemen could search a small cupboard and not find a silencer with blood upon it , then the family find it ?

Do you believe RWB , when he claimed JB said ' he could kill his parent's ?

Is there a scenario in your mind , where JB is innocent and the family have had no input in setting him up ? I would like to hear it !!

IMO , there is no getting away from believing JB is innocent and the family not being deceitful , whether that be a case of ' noble cause corruption ' or ' a blatant set up ' !!

My deepest sympathies go to them over their loss's !!

In this respect JB is not analogous to Hillsborough in my opinion. The main reason was that 40,000+ people were there at Hillsborough and 10,000+ people were at the Leppings Lane end. They saw what happened and have known the truth for 23 years.

Yes, there was a police cover up, but people have known the truth for 23 years. When the Hillsborough Report came out earier this year, this wasnt news to me. I knew the truth from April 1989. Nobody on this forum categorically KNOWS the truth about what happened at WHF.

There is a scenario in my mind whereby JB could be innocent but Sheila was dead before the police arrived at the scene and the police genuinely initially thought it was suicide. It was only when further evidence came to light that they switched their attentions to JB.

This gives rise to the possibility that the police do not 100% know that JB is innocent and given the circumstantial evidence were satisfied there was enough to go with a prosecution. This may well be the belief that the relatives maintain, having had no part whatsoever in any conspiracy.

JFT96

[lookout]

I happen to think that Jeremy has been treated appallingly on here,,especially as there's no hard evidence which ties him to the murders.

[jon]

In this respect JB is not analogous to Hillsborough in my opinion. The main reason was that 40,000+ people were there at Hillsborough and 10,000+ people were at the Leppings Lane end. They saw what happened and have known the truth for 23 years.

Yes, there was a police cover up, but people have known the truth for 23 years. When the Hillsborough Report came out earier this year, this wasnt news to me. I knew the truth from April 1989. Nobody on this forum categorically KNOWS the truth about what happened at WHF.

There is a scenario in my mind whereby JB could be innocent but Sheila was dead before the police arrived at the scene and the police genuinely initially thought it was suicide. It was only when further evidence came to light that they switched their attentions to JB.

This gives rise to the possibility that the police do not 100% know that JB is innocent and given the circumstantial evidence were satisfied there was enough to go with a prosecution. This may well be the belief that the relatives maintain, having had no part whatsoever in any conspiracy.

JFT96

My comparison with Hillsborough and JB is the blatant obstruction of justice Pete , my point being once the authorities obstruct justice , by withholding evidence ( logs ) , altering statement's , disgracefully done in both cases , logic tell's me there is something fundamentally wrong !!
                                                    JFT96