ANN Eaton Notes - CAE/1a (Sheila found on bed with Bible on chest)...

[mike tesko]

This isn't really much to go on at all.

Firstly the accuracy of contemporaneous notes is subject to how the information was observed, did Ann see the bodies herself, or if she was told by a police officer, then did that police officer see the bodies or did someone tell him/her.

Also if you are going to take that particular sentence as fact then what about this one?
"3:00am Nevill called Jeremy, then the line went dead"

The police officers statements must be a more accurate account of events than these second hand information notes.

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The police officer who passed this information onto Ann Eaton, must have seen the body of Ralph Bamber in the kitchen with his head in the bucket. This same police officer must have seen the body of June Bamber near the door to the bedroom. This police officer must have seen the children in their beds. This same police officer must have seen Sheila's body on the bed - the identity of this police officer, who gave Ann Eaton, all of this information, should be declared and should have been declared, because this police officer had first hand knowledge that Sheila's body was on the bed, and that it had been found upon the bed. Such information and evidence is capable of seriously undermining the prosecution case, and the evidence given by other police officers that Sheila's body was found on the bedroom floor with the rifle on her body (not the bible) and the bible by her side (not on her chest)...

The identity of this police officer needs to be found out and established - I can't believe and I do not accept that Ann Eaton does not know the identity of this police officer, because she only came into contact with a few during those early days:-

(1) DS Jones
(2) DC Carter
(3) PC Robert Carr
(4) PI "Bob" Miller

It would be a simple case of deduction to work out which of these police officers could have been present inside the bedroom at a time when Sheila Caffells body was on the bed...

DS Jones, and PI Miller's, names spring to the fore...

I am aware, that Dr Craig attended the scene with PI Miller, and that both made witness statements declaring that Sheila's body had been found on the bedroom floor with the gun upon it, but DR Craig later informed Ewen Smith (Jeremy's solicitor in 2003) that Sheila's body was on the bed, not on the floor at that stage. What this means is that it is a very good chance that it could have been PI "Bob" Miller who told Ann Eaton that Sheila's body was found on the bed, with the  bible on her chest, and the gun on the bed next to the body...

I have personally seen a picture of Sheila on the bed...

In my opinion, Ann Eaton, knows far more than she is prepared to let on, about who told her Sheila's body was on the bed, not on the floor when police found it in the bedroom...

[Kaldin]

That reference to 11 minutes is very specific. She didn't say "about 10 minutes" or anything - she said 11. Hmmmmmm, very odd.

[mb1]

This is not evidence - it's the written equivalent of hearsay.

Neighbours to crime scenes are full of theories. Sometimes the press even print them. Are my diary entries of a crime suddenly evidence, contemporaneous or not?

JB's complaint was that the police kept him on hold for 11 minutes, asserted in other sources. Other aspects of these have been quoted as 'the truth'. Are these now lies?

Seriously doubt this would be admissable in court, particularly as any decent judge knows it would be savaged.

Today I was given to understand that there are now 5 million (yes million) documents/items of evidence concerning this case. Going on this, they'll eventually need a very big shredder.

[Hartley]

Mike that all may well be true, I don't know, you've done a lot more research than I have any intention of doing.
However, my point is simply that the notes by Ann do not provide strong enough evidence to that effect. That's why I mentioned the time of 3:00am of the phone call, there is other evidence which indicates the call took place at a different time, so if the time given in Anns notes is incorrect then it's not beyond reason that Shiela's body location is incorrect.

[mike tesko]

Mike that all may well be true, I don't know, you've done a lot more research than I have any intention of doing.
However, my point is simply that the notes by Ann do not provide strong enough evidence to that effect. That's why I mentioned the time of 3:00am of the phone call, there is other evidence which indicates the call took place at a different time, so if the time given in Anns notes is incorrect then it's not beyond reason that Shiela's body location is incorrect.

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Odd coincidence that the position of the other four bodies was accurate, but Sheila's was not?

Where did Ann Eaton get this information from?

Why does she protect the identity of the police officer, who fed her this information?

Are you suggesting that this police officer did not actually see the position of the five bodies at the scene, with his own two eyes? Is it being argued that he simply speculated about where the bodies could have been?

I think not...

[Kaldin]

This is not evidence - it's the written equivalent of hearsay.

Neighbours to crime scenes are full of theories. Sometimes the press even print them. Are my diary entries of a crime suddenly evidence, contemporaneous or not?

JB's complaint was that the police kept him on hold for 11 minutes, asserted in other sources. Other aspects of these have been quoted as 'the truth'. Are these now lies?

Seriously doubt this would be admissable in court, particularly as any decent judge knows it would be savaged.

Today I was given to understand that there are now 5 million (yes million) documents/items of evidence concerning this case. Going on this, they'll eventually need a very big shredder.

If Jeremy was specific about how long he was on the phone to the police, he must also know what time he called surely.

[Hartley]

I'm not suggesting anything other than that this is not evidence which would stand up to scrutiny.

[mike tesko]

This is not evidence - it's the written equivalent of hearsay.

Neighbours to crime scenes are full of theories. Sometimes the press even print them. Are my diary entries of a crime suddenly evidence, contemporaneous or not?

JB's complaint was that the police kept him on hold for 11 minutes, asserted in other sources. Other aspects of these have been quoted as 'the truth'. Are these now lies?

Seriously doubt this would be admissable in court, particularly as any decent judge knows it would be savaged.

Today I was given to understand that there are now 5 million (yes million) documents/items of evidence concerning this case. Going on this, they'll eventually need a very big shredder.

If Jeremy was specific about how long he was on the phone to the police, he must also know what time he called surely.

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The time quoted on the note, is Ann Eaton's, or the police officer ,who spoke to her's, guestimation, not Jeremy's. Jeremy has never said how long he was on the phone for, and neither has any police officer, or civilian worker, as far as I know - with the exception of the comments recorded by Ann Eaton, on these notes of hers, which details an 11 minute period...

The person who is responsible for introducing this 11 minute period has so far, not yet been formally identified, and yet everyone is accepting that there must have been such an 11 minute period...

Matter could be resolved if Ann Eaton identified the police officer who started all these rumors off in the first place...

In my opinion...

[Alex]

I'm not suggesting anything other than that this is not evidence which would stand up to scrutiny.

I understand what you are saying Hartley, but I accept that the photograph which Mike describes exists and therefore am willing to believe in the possibility that Ann Eaton's note of Sheila's location has some basis in reality.  It also agrees with Julie Mugford's account of Jeremy's 'confession'.

[Reader]

JB's complaint was that the police kept him on hold for 11 minutes, asserted in other sources.

I think you're mistaken, Ann Eaton's notes being the only source (see below). JB's "complaint" seems to be limited to a more urgent tone and saying Nevill sounded terrified, after being put on hold.

Jeremy has never said how long he was on the phone for, and neither has any police officer, or civilian worker, as far as I know - with the exception of the comments recorded by Ann Eaton, on these notes of hers, which details an 11 minute period...

I think you asserted (or estimated?) that JB's call took 3 to 4 minutes. Haven't you ever asked Jeremy how long the call took (as far as he can recall)? If JB called PC West at 3.36, the call probably didn't end after 3.42, as the police recorded that Jeremy met them at Pages Lane at 3.50.

Malcolm Bonnet's log shows a call from PC 1990 at 3.26 and that car CA7 was sent at 3.35. That's a considerable delay, but perhaps the time of 3.35 reflected when it was confirmed that car CA7 was on its way, as nothing I've seen confirms that car CA7 already had three officers in it when requested to go to the farm.

[Hartley]

I'm not suggesting anything other than that this is not evidence which would stand up to scrutiny.

I understand what you are saying Hartley, but I accept that the photograph which Mike describes exists and therefore am willing to believe in the possibility that Ann Eaton's note of Sheila's location has some basis in reality.  It also agrees with Julie Mugford's account of Jeremy's 'confession'.

I agree that it's possible.

[mike tesko]

JB's complaint was that the police kept him on hold for 11 minutes, asserted in other sources.

I think you're mistaken, Ann Eaton's notes being the only source (see below). JB's "complaint" seems to be limited to a more urgent tone and saying Nevill sounded terrified, after being put on hold.

Jeremy has never said how long he was on the phone for, and neither has any police officer, or civilian worker, as far as I know - with the exception of the comments recorded by Ann Eaton, on these notes of hers, which details an 11 minute period...

I think you asserted (or estimated?) that JB's call took 3 to 4 minutes. Haven't you ever asked Jeremy how long the call took (as far as he can recall)? If JB called PC West at 3.36, the call probably didn't end after 3.42, as the police recorded that Jeremy met them at Pages Lane at 3.50.

Malcolm Bonnet's log shows a call from PC 1990 at 3.26 and that car CA7 was sent at 3.35. That's a considerable delay, but perhaps the time of 3.35 reflected when it was confirmed that car CA7 was on its way, as nothing I've seen confirms that car CA7 already had three officers in it when requested to go to the farm.

... One of the problems is that no-one knows when all of these key witnesses, recorded the times mentioned in these telephone logs, or statements, or handwritten notes? Were times jotted down when calls were made, received, or at the conclusion of the activities being spoken about, or mentioned?  Another problem would thus be, the real possibility that none of these would be synchronized so that everyones account would fit snuggly together like pieces of a jigsaw. These are some of the problems which you may have to deal with in cases like this...

[Kaldin]

I'm not suggesting anything other than that this is not evidence which would stand up to scrutiny.

I understand what you are saying Hartley, but I accept that the photograph which Mike describes exists and therefore am willing to believe in the possibility that Ann Eaton's note of Sheila's location has some basis in reality.  It also agrees with Julie Mugford's account of Jeremy's 'confession'.

Your last sentence is interesting.

I wonder if there's a statement anywhere which shows what Julie said. It would be interesting to see if her account tallies with what Ann said rather than what the photographs actually show. I don't recall Julie saying that Sheila was on the bed, but according to the Appeal document she claimed Jeremy told her that Sheila was told to shoot herself and that the killer placed a Bible on her chest.  Ann also said the Bible was on Sheila's chest. Did Julie tell Ann that, or did Ann tell Julie that?

Julie said all that on 7th September, and I wonder what she actually knew by then - ie, that the Bible was not found on Sheila's chest.

It would also be interesting to know when Ann made those notes.

[Kaldin]

It's possible that the Bible was on Sheila's chest at some point. That would account for where the blood on the pages came from. It's obvious that the Bible didn't start off in the position depicted in the photos as the blood is in the wrong place. 

[mike tesko]

I'm not suggesting anything other than that this is not evidence which would stand up to scrutiny.

I understand what you are saying Hartley, but I accept that the photograph which Mike describes exists and therefore am willing to believe in the possibility that Ann Eaton's note of Sheila's location has some basis in reality.  It also agrees with Julie Mugford's account of Jeremy's 'confession'.

Your last sentence is interesting.

I wonder if there's a statement anywhere which shows what Julie said. It would be interesting to see if her account tallies with what Ann said rather than what the photographs actually show. I don't recall Julie saying that Sheila was on the bed, but according to the Appeal document she claimed Jeremy told her that Sheila was told to shoot herself and that the killer placed a Bible on her chest.  Ann also said the Bible was on Sheila's chest. Did Julie tell Ann that, or did Ann tell Julie that?

Julie said all that on 7th September, and I wonder what she actually knew by then - ie, that the Bible was not found on Sheila's chest.

It would also be interesting to know when Ann made those notes.

... Ann Eatons statement that she made to COLP, in 1991, is very interesting, since she is giving her account of how she came to know that Sheila's body was found on the bed. She discusses the possibility that Julie Mugford could have been present when the policeman told Ann that Sheila's body was found on top of the bed, with the bible on her chest, and the rifle next to the body, not on it. The note written up by Ann Eaton, was written up by her, with regard to this matter, on 7th August 1985...