Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)

[Lugg]

Listen Im not here to defend freemasonry at every level and Im certainly not in any camp as I have not a clue about the Bamber case.  I know neither about his guilt or innocence so why am I even bothering here! Well its simply to help those in any camp that believe that being a freemason would enable any man to enact the influence needed to carry out this type of deception to fruition and to still be able to do so to this day. I understand the need to envelope the case in the possiblity that something more powerful and sinister is at work here as it tends to explain much of the unexplainable but I feel you are barking up the wrong tree here. If any man had this type of influence he would have had have been a very prominent freemason indeed to be able to somehow do what your implying, and lets face it you can't even agree if anyone in the case were even freemasons at any level or at anytime, that kinda says it all for me.

Well that's telling us.

[lookout]

If there happened to be a Worshipful Master of a Lodge in the extended family,,,,then influence would be greater as to who says what,and their word carries a lot of clout whatever happens.

[gordo30]

It could be my lack of understanding of the circumstances surrounding the case and the part freemasonry is believed to have played in it.

Would a master of a lodge even within an extended family have that type of influence! I suppose it would depend on the character of the person in question and the character of those he involved, I was senior warden in my lodge just 1 step to the chair when I recanted for the sake of my young family(the time constraints were over demanding) at that level I had no where near the influence to do anything like that. I know my father probably had enough influence to get something like this started but again it would have depended on the character of those involved as to whether they would have went through with it. There appears to be a belief that being a mason means you have to do what you can no matter what that maybe and its that I have argued against, I cannot argue for individuals who might see it at the disposal to do something like this.

The fact that it seems that many people would have to be relied upon to carry this through makes it highly unlikely or impossible for it to have happened using freemasonry in this manner. I have said it before that It never happens that way and I don't feel a master of the lodge would hold enough influence to carry out what you are implying.

[lookout]

It could be my lack of understanding of the circumstances surrounding the case and the part freemasonry is believed to have played in it.

Would a master of a lodge even within an extended family have that type of influence! I suppose it would depend on the character of the person in question and the character of those he involved, I was senior warden in my lodge just 1 step to the chair when I recanted for the sake of my young family(the time constraints were over demanding) at that level I had no where near the influence to do anything like that. I know my father probably had enough influence to get something like this started but again it would have depended on the character of those involved as to whether they would have went through with it. There appears to be a belief that being a mason means you have to do what you can no matter what that maybe and its that I have argued against, I cannot argue for individuals who might see it at the disposal to do something like this.

The fact that it seems that many people would have to be relied upon to carry this through makes it highly unlikely or impossible for it to have happened using freemasonry in this manner. I have said it before that It never happens that way and I don't feel a master of the lodge would hold enough influence to carry out what you are implying.

The position of Worshipful Master does influence whatever is at their disposal,,particularly where you have the police that attend the same Lodge. I know by past experiences,,,not necessarily because a person is " criminally minded " or even committed anything more than a motoring offence,but compared to the ordinary man in the street,,it does make a heck of a difference when someone has the gift of the gab in talking their way out of a given situation,,, rather than holding up their hands in defeat. 

[Lugg]

It could be my lack of understanding of the circumstances surrounding the case and the part freemasonry is believed to have played in it.

Would a master of a lodge even within an extended family have that type of influence! I suppose it would depend on the character of the person in question and the character of those he involved, I was senior warden in my lodge just 1 step to the chair when I recanted for the sake of my young family(the time constraints were over demanding) at that level I had no where near the influence to do anything like that. I know my father probably had enough influence to get something like this started but again it would have depended on the character of those involved as to whether they would have went through with it. There appears to be a belief that being a mason means you have to do what you can no matter what that maybe and its that I have argued against, I cannot argue for individuals who might see it at the disposal to do something like this.

The fact that it seems that many people would have to be relied upon to carry this through makes it highly unlikely or impossible for it to have happened using freemasonry in this manner. I have said it before that It never happens that way and I don't feel a master of the lodge would hold enough influence to carry out what you are implying.

Well after reading of the difficulty that Robert Boutflour had in persuading the police to consider his "theories" regarding Jeremy's involvement in the WHF murders I would not think that any alleged Freemasonry influence did take place. I was just exploring the supposition that has been taken for granted by the innocent side that it was largely due to RWBs Freemasonry influence that turned the police round to thinking that JB was the murderer. But I am ready because of the lack of any written proof that this was so to scotch that theory.
I think that so much in this case has been based on hearsay and I'm just getting a bit fed up with it.

[lookout]

Well after reading of the difficulty that Robert Boutflour had in persuading the police to consider his "theories" regarding Jeremy's involvement in the WHF murders I would not think that any alleged Freemasonry influence did take place. I was just exploring the supposition that has been taken for granted by the innocent side that it was largely due to RWBs Freemasonry influence that turned the police round to thinking that JB was the murderer. But I am ready because of the lack of any written proof that this was so to scotch that theory.
I think that so much in this case has been based on hearsay and I'm just getting a bit fed up with it.

Indeed Lugg,,it has been,and still is a case which has been based on hearsay,,which I find abominable personally. To me,,concrete proof is the way to go,and of this,there is none.

[lookout]

Mike,,,there are a few interesting sites,by the name of VOMIT. Victims of Masonic ill Treatment.
Worth a read.

[ngb1066]

And all without his wife, children and grand children having any knowledge of him even being a member.......Nor is there any knowledge of Nevill being a member either.....The only claim of this is from er, Jeremy.....

I may be mistaken on this (although I do not think I am), but I do not believe Jeremy has ever claimed that his father was a freemason, because he was not.  I have read Aunt Agatha's earlier post on this and wonder whether she might be mistaken in her recollection of the conversation with Jeremy about this.


   

[susan]

Hi ngb  I seem to think AA said she had paperwork in connection with Ralph being a Freemason but from what I am told by Freemasons nothing is ever written down so maybe she is thinking of some other fraternity he was a member of. Round Table or the like.

[ngb1066]

Hi ngb  I seem to think AA said she had paperwork in connection with Ralph being a Freemason but from what I am told by Freemasons nothing is ever written down so maybe she is thinking of some other fraternity he was a member of. Round Table or the like.

You may be right Susan.  I would be interested to know the paperwork is but I accept that it would not be appropriate to post it on the forum.  I would ask Aunt Agatha to check this paperwork to see if he recollection about it is correct or not.

[gordo30]

It might be contrary to what other people may suggest but annonimity is certainly not something we strive for. There are only a few real documents that could be used to determine if someone was at anytime a mason and anyone may be in possession of them as they tend to be handed down through death or people find them on clearing out house's and such like.

There are various official websites with what amounts to thousands of individauls being named as masons and they can be used. There maybe diploma's from any of the degrees an individual went through plus dues books or honourary membership cards ffrom other lodges all in the names of the person you require.

It is quite feasable that AA may have documentation that someone was/is a mason but theres no need to keep it secret.

[susan]

Hi Gordo30  I thought you would be the man to know the answer to this.  I  have not found that people in The Highlands discuss Freemasons only with other Freemasons  I always know when I am out with my husband if he meets a guy and they shake hands that tells me all especially when they don't shake hands with me   Maybe he has a membership card I don't know as he is fed up of me trying to find stuff out   I stand corrected ngb and AA he has just told me he has Certificates and he his on the Roll of Freemasons.  Sorry guys.

[Lugg]

Hi Gordo30  I thought you would be the man to know the answer to this.  I  have not found that people in The Highlands discuss Freemasons only with other Freemasons  I always know when I am out with my husband if he meets a guy and they shake hands that tells me all especially when they don't shake hands with me   Maybe he has a membership card I don't know as he is fed up of me trying to find stuff out   I stand corrected ngb and AA he has just told me he has Certificates and he his on the Roll of Freemasons.  Sorry guys.

I think that secrecy, which is discussed at length in the Freemason's handbook was a dominant factor in the organisation. That is the reason for the secret handshake.
I remember that in the 75's there was a program on television about the Freemasons. Before that it remained a very secret society and that is how it was in those days. It is only since that program that it has gradually been more open in its activities.

[gordo30]

Susan in the Highlands it has taken a lot longer to dispense with secrecy at every level mainly as the Highlands practiced a type of freemasonry totally different to that which was practiced through the rest of Scotland.
Their freemasonry was jacobite freemasonry and as many lodges even now my own included date from 1739 just a few years prior to the 45 rebellion, they have been used to carrying this over all these years even although jacobite freemasonry doesn't exist any longer or has become dissolved into other degree,s or fraternities. It was very dangerous indeed to be a freemason in the Highlands in the years post 45 rebellion.

I remember books like "darkness visable" and others stemming from the 60s/70's that went a long way in exposing what went on within freemasonry and to be honest many were very close but always lacked the connection between ritual and text. The only things a mason is not permitted to talk about are those signs,words and grips with which to know a mason by but thats it, so Lugg is right the only secrets freemasonry has are these.

[susan]

Morning Gordo30  Many thanks for your post which I found very interesting.  Whilst as you know I am not a Freemason I have a tremendous interest in Scottish history especially the 45 rising and have a could knowledge of these times and The Highland Clearance.  I will pass this information on just in case he knows nothing about it but as I said earlier it is a topic that is not discussed in our home.  Many thanks again.

Off topic I would be interested sometime on your views on Devolution at the moment I have mixed feelings.