Author Topic: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)  (Read 25349 times)

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Offline susan

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2012, 12:42:PM »
Hi Lugg  I suppose my own husband can only believe what he reads in the handbook given to him by his own Lodge which I do not have access to .  I think maybe different levels of Freemasons exsists and much will be written where the truth has been stretched.  I am not really qualified to debate this as I am told it really is not my business perhaps Gordo30 is the man for this subject. By the way I am not qualified either to say what you are saying does not go on in this world anything is possible.

Offline gordo30

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2012, 12:50:PM »
I have spent many years researching the craft, I have joined lodges of research (Lodge Century No.1492,) where debates are carried out about all aspects of the craft and in the presence of members and non members a like. I feel you have come up with one example that helps fit your agenda and now you want that to be the standpoint of your discussion about this case.
I find it also very arrogant that you should deem myself as some form of blind person not understanding the institution im a member of. I also find it self serving to go along with these types of books that denounce freemasonry without of course studying those that approach the subject from a  more current perspective.

Offline susan

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2012, 12:52:PM »
Hi Lugg  he laughed at the quote where he would be expected to conceal all crimes against his fellow Mason and shield them he has never read or agreed to this and never would.  Perhaps he did a steve and did a skim read.  Lugg you must realise that some Freemasons are much more serious about the organisation than others all he does is meet up once a month at the Lodge. Don't know what they talk about but probably would be boring to me.  He is not saying that what you quoted was not written he is just saying it was not asked of him.

Offline gordo30

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2012, 12:52:PM »
What exactly is it im missing regarding the history of the order? you have told me that the author of this book was a master mason did you not? well just how does that fit when a man who obviously has disregarded his own obligations to put into print that which he swore not to!

Offline gordo30

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2012, 12:54:PM »
In all the degrees I have went through I have never sworn anything remotely like what was written in the masonic handbook.

Caroline R

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2012, 12:59:PM »
Hi Lugg  he laughed at the quote where he would be expected to conceal all crimes against his fellow Mason and shield them he has never read or agreed to this and never would.  Perhaps he did a steve and did a skim read.  Lugg you must realise that some Freemasons are much more serious about the organisation than others all he does is meet up once a month at the Lodge. Don't know what they talk about but probably would be boring to me.  He is not saying that what you quoted was not written he is just saying it was not asked of him.

Hi Susan,

In every organisation there is always someone who abuses or stretches the rules to the limits. I would imagine the vast majority of Freemasons join with the motive of serving their community but some who use (or try to use) it for self promotion.

Offline susan

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2012, 01:21:PM »
Hi Caroline

I have met many who join the Freemasons in an effort to feather their own nests i.e. with business contracts etc but don't think it works somehow not in this part of the world.  My other half said he was a Freemason before he became a member of a Lodge i.e. honest law abiding person without having an ulterior motive.  Bad and good in every organisation Doctors, Dentists Lawyers and so forth.

Lugg

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2012, 01:21:PM »
I have spent many years researching the craft, I have joined lodges of research (Lodge Century No.1492,) where debates are carried out about all aspects of the craft and in the presence of members and non members a like. I feel you have come up with one example that helps fit your agenda and now you want that to be the standpoint of your discussion about this case.
I find it also very arrogant that you should deem myself as some form of blind person not understanding the institution im a member of. I also find it self serving to go along with these types of books that denounce freemasonry without of course studying those that approach the subject from a  more current perspective.
Why do you think that? I have been quite open in this discussion and as honest as possible in my questions. If what you say is true, that you have researched the craft thoroughly then I do feel amazed that you haven't heard of this chap who wrote this handbook?
However it has been conveyed to me that no mason (to use the name loosely) knows anything above his own rank. He must be initiated into that rank in order to know the business that goes on in that rank.
It has also been suggested to me by a person who knows a great deal more than I do about Masonry that it would be true to say that RWB was not a Mason. That they said would be literally correct. But they said that he was a "Royal Arch Mason"? I'm not sure what the capters are myself as I am relatively ignorant of these things and you of course have me at a disadvantage regarding Freemasonry.

Offline susan

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2012, 01:23:PM »
Gordo I have just been told by my other half that a true Freemason swears never to write anything down regarding the organisation.

Lugg

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2012, 01:27:PM »
Gordo I have just been told by my other half that a true Freemason swears never to write anything down regarding the organisation.
It is a very ancient order Susan which goes back to before the Templers. I must make it perfectly plain that I am in no way trying to bad mouth individual Masons. You will of course realise that Simon McKay, JB's solicitor is a Freemason. Look at his website and this will be confirmed.
But the organisation does invite inquiry by the very fact that it is a self confessed "secret" society.

Offline gordo30

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2012, 03:24:PM »
Why do you think that? I have been quite open in this discussion and as honest as possible in my questions. If what you say is true, that you have researched the craft thoroughly then I do feel amazed that you haven't heard of this chap who wrote this handbook?
However it has been conveyed to me that no mason (to use the name loosely) knows anything above his own rank. He must be initiated into that rank in order to know the business that goes on in that rank.
It has also been suggested to me by a person who knows a great deal more than I do about Masonry that it would be true to say that RWB was not a Mason. That they said would be literally correct. But they said that he was a "Royal Arch Mason"? I'm not sure what the capters are myself as I am relatively ignorant of these things and you of course have me at a disadvantage regarding Freemasonry.

Why would I think that! well you referenced a quote from a book that implied we as masons should do everything we can to help out other masons even If that meant breaking the law, you supplemented that by producing the quote even although you are not in a position to know whether anything contained in the book was accurate or not. There have now been two people independently  telling you that the part you quoted is wrong and that neither of us have sworn anything like that, it does however seem that you stand by that quote in relation to what you feel about freemasonry and the Bamber case.

I had never heard of the guy who wrote this book until today but after glancing over a summary of what it contained Im not surprised that I hadn't, do you understand just how much has been written in relation to the craft and the amount of books and websites online there are.

Theres no way he could be a Royal Arch Mason without being a master mason as thats a pre-requisite to joining the royal arch. It may well be however as many go on to do so is that they establish their careers in freemasonry at the Royal Arch level and advance through the offices of the arch without ever attending the blues craft lodge, this can be done at numerous different degree's and orders.

Offline vidvic

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2012, 03:29:PM »
Why would I think that! well you referenced a quote from a book that implied we as masons should do everything we can to help out other masons even If that meant breaking the law, you supplemented that by producing the quote even although you are not in a position to know whether anything contained in the book was accurate or not. There have now been two people independently  telling you that the part you quoted is wrong and that neither of us have sworn anything like that, it does however seem that you stand by that quote in relation to what you feel about freemasonry and the Bamber case.

I had never heard of the guy who wrote this book until today but after glancing over a summary of what it contained Im not surprised that I hadn't, do you understand just how much has been written in relation to the craft and the amount of books and websites online there are.

Theres no way he could be a Royal Arch Mason without being a master mason as thats a pre-requisite to joining the royal arch. It may well be however as many go on to do so is that they establish their careers in freemasonry at the Royal Arch level and advance through the offices of the arch without ever attending the blues craft lodge, this can be done at numerous different degree's and orders.

And all without his wife, children and grand children having any knowledge of him even being a member.......Nor is there any knowledge of Nevill being a member either.....The only claim of this is from er, Jeremy.....
rumor vagatus stulti et acceptantur a Idiotae

Offline gordo30

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2012, 03:37:PM »
Quote
However it has been conveyed to me that no mason (to use the name loosely) knows anything above his own rank. He must be initiated into that rank in order to know the business that goes on in that rank

This of course  is true and I submit that in other masonic degrees they may well utter these words but the fact that they contradict obligations taken when advancing through the craft would suggest to me that it was unlikely. I am also a campanion in the red's (or Arch masonry) and it certainly doesn't come from there but the next time I have a chance I will show this to my father who should be able to draw on anything  even remotely like this.

The trouble of course is that as you advance in freemasonry and enter other degrees the amount of masons who also attain those ranks reduce's and so would the influence in terms of numbers needed to cover up this injustice at the higher levels.

Offline gordo30

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #103 on: October 26, 2012, 03:53:PM »
And all without his wife, children and grand children having any knowledge of him even being a member.......Nor is there any knowledge of Nevill being a member either.....The only claim of this is from er, Jeremy.....

This would also prove impossible in my opinion as for someone to have the influence to be able to do what you are inferring would at least mean regular attendance at craft lodge level, let alone provincial and going through other degrees. I wonder if your aware of the amount of time and effort required to do all that? It means being out alomost every other day and there would be no way that the family would not know.

Lugg

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Re: Was Robert Boutflour a Freemason? (Calling campion)
« Reply #104 on: October 26, 2012, 06:15:PM »
Ok it is obvious that my whole intention of beginning this thread was to establish if RWB was in fact a Freemason. Because it has always been accepted unchallenged by not only the innocent camp. But strangely enough by the guilty camp also.

Now my following argument was that if he was a Mason then what kind of influence he had over other Masons who were in the police at that time. Because at that time in the 80s was big noise being made over Freemasons in the police you remember? The concern was (not my idea by the way) was that they could influence not only police investigations. But also in their obligation to support other collegues who were also Masons would take preference over their obligation to the force. Now please take not that this is not my idea. But it was the general concern of the day.

That was to be my next question and it is a legitimate one surely. that if RWB was a Mason would he have had the power to influence the Bamber case regarding various aspects of it.
But, seeing that there is no way of proving that he was a Mason, then my second question has become redundant, unless of course someone can show us otherwise.

Howver in the light of this denial it is interesting to read a section from the handbook of Freemasons:
Quote
I, Mr. N——, in the presence of the great Architect of the
Universe, and of this warranted, worthy, and worshipful Lodge
of free and accepted Masons, regularly assembled and properly
dedicated, of my own free will and accord, do, hereby and
hereon, most solemnly and sincerely swear, that I will always
hele, conceal, and never reveal, any part or parts, point or
points, of the secrets and mysteries of, or belonging to, free and
accepted masons in masonry, which have been, shall now, or
hereafter may be, communicated to me, unless it be to a true
and lawful brother or brothers, and not even to him or them,
till after due trial, strict examination, or sure information from
a well-known brother, that he or they are worthy of that confidence,
or in the body of a just, perfect, and regular lodge of
accepted Freemasons. I further solemnly promise, that I will
not write those secrets, print, carve, engrave, or otherwise them
delineate, or cause or suffer them to be done so by others, if in
my power to prevent it, on any thing moveable or immoveable
under the canopy of heaven, whereby or whereon any letter,
character, or figure, or the least trace of a letter, character, or
figure, may become legible or intelligible to myself, or to any
one in the world, so that our secrets, arts, and hidden mysteries,
may improperly become known through my unworthiness.

These several points I solemnly swear to observe, without evasion,
equivocation, or mental reservation of any kind, under no
less a penalty, on the violation of any of them, than to have my
throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the root, and my body
buried in the sand of the sea at low water mark, or a cable’s
length from the shore, where the tide regularly ebbs and flows
twice in twenty-four hours, or the more efficient punishment of
being branded as a wilfully perjured individual, void of all
moral worth, and unfit to be received in this warranted lodge,
or in any other warranted lodge, or society of masons, who
prize honour and virtue above all the external advantages of
rank and fortune : So help me, God, and keep me steadfast in
this my great and solemn obligation of an Entered Apprentice
Free Mason

To make things very clear my question was an open one and if answered in the affirmative would in actual fact have served those in the guilty camp more than it would those in the innocent camp. I still think that anything that purports to be a "secret" society ( and Freemasonry does) must be prepare to be questioned as to WHY it has to be secret?

http://www.rgle.org.uk/Manual%20Freemasonry.pdf
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 06:17:PM by Lugg »