PS Saxby - the unanswered question:-

[mike tesko]

Two things of major importance leap out and grab your attention, yet no-one grasps its importance...

(1) - Police were sent to the scene, in the knowledge that Jeremy had recieved a telephone call during the early hours from his father who informed him that his sister (Sheila) had gone crazy and that she had got hold of one of his guns, and for Jeremy to come to the farm quickly. So with this in mind police must have known that at least Ralph had still alive at that stage. PC Saxby, therefore, would know that there was someone alive inside whf at the time of Ralph Bambers call to Jeremy. This belief would have been reinforced as a result of the information recieved when Bews, Myall and Jeremy all came running back with the tale of having seen a person inside the house. Saxby would also be privy to information contained in radio messages passed between the firearms officers at the scene, and the control room, since CA07 was used for that purpose between what was taking place at the scene relayed back to the control room. This would have included information about the discovery of two bodies upon entry by the raid team at 7;37am, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder and a suicide, and how one of those bodies migrated upstairs to the bedroom. Saxby took Jeremys complaint about him believing that police had shot and killed his family...

[mike tesko]

Two things of major importance leap out and grab your attention, yet no-one grasps its importance...

(1) - Police were sent to the scene, in the knowledge that Jeremy had recieved a telephone call during the early hours from his father who informed him that his sister (Sheila) had gone crazy and that she had got hold of one of his guns, and for Jeremy to come to the farm quickly. So with this in mind police must have known that at least Ralph had still alive at that stage. PC Saxby, therefore, would know that there was someone alive inside whf at the time of Ralph Bambers call to Jeremy. This belief would have been reinforced as a result of the information recieved when Bews, Myall and Jeremy all came running back with the tale of having seen a person inside the house. Saxby would also be privy to information contained in radio messages passed between the firearms officers at the scene, and the control room, since CA07 was used for that purpose between what was taking place at the scene relayed back to the control room. This would have included information about the discovery of two bodies upon entry by the raid team at 7;37am, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder and a suicide, and how one of those bodies migrated upstairs to the bedroom. Saxby took Jeremys complaint about him believing that police had shot and killed his family...

(2) - Everything that PS Saxby knew before he left the scene that morning at about 9:30am, pointed to a person, or persons still alive inside the premises long after thier arrival and the arrival of Jeremy at the scene...

[lookout]

(2) - Everything that PS Saxby knew before he left the scene that morning at about 9:30am, pointed to a person, or persons still alive inside the premises long after thier arrival and the arrival of Jeremy at the scene...

Mike,,this aspect in itself needs to be investigated,when there was every possibility of someone still being alive inside that house. The police should have acted swiftly/quickly. There needs to be questions asked why time was wasted when so many lives hung in the balance.
Surely bullet-proof clothing was available then.?

[Nickos]

Two things of major importance leap out and grab your attention, yet no-one grasps its importance...

Not even JB's defence team!

(1) - Police were sent to the scene, in the knowledge that Jeremy had recieved a telephone call during the early hours from his father who informed him that his sister (Sheila) had gone crazy and that she had got hold of one of his guns, and for Jeremy to come to the farm quickly.

So with this in mind police must have known that at least Ralph had still alive at that stage. PC Saxby, therefore, would know that there was someone alive inside whf at the time of Ralph Bambers call to Jeremy.

Only based on JB's story! Ralph of course could have been dead well before JB called EP, and Ralph therefore never made that call to JB.

This belief would have been reinforced as a result of the information recieved when Bews, Myall and Jeremy all came running back with the tale of having seen a person inside the house.

Only based on JB's story.
Bews and Myall, I believe, have never admitted verbally or in writing seeing a person at the window, and imo never will

Saxby would also be privy to information contained in radio messages passed between the firearms officers at the scene, and the control room, since CA07 was used for that purpose between what was taking place at the scene relayed back to the control room. This would have included information about the discovery of two bodies upon entry by the raid team at 7;37am, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder and a suicide, and how one of those bodies migrated upstairs to the bedroom. Saxby took Jeremys complaint about him believing that police had shot and killed his family...

Elements raised above are known to JB's defence team - they are subjective, arguable etc. and possibly records made in error, but ultimately not conclusive as evidence, or JB's team would have been able to successfully use them.

[Nickos]

(2) - Everything that PS Saxby knew before he left the scene that morning at about 9:30am, pointed to a person, or persons still alive inside the premises long after thier arrival and the arrival of Jeremy at the scene...

Everything..........??

Long after their (EP's) arrival......... I don't think so!

[mike tesko]

The role played by the occupants of CA07 at the scene once the firearms team arrived upon the scene at and from 5am, in the capacity of communications between the firearms team at the incident and the control room back at police headquarters, has never been properly explained or disclosed. Bews, Myall and Saxby, liased between officers at the scene and others elsewhere, and this was achoeved by one or other of them relaying messages back and forth. It therefore follows, that whatever they spoke about or relayed as a result of the all being in the firing linr, involved details of the person seen at the bedroom window, about why the dogs were barking before the arrival of the police and Jeremy, why the telephone which had its hanset off the cradle with line open at about 3:58am, should be engaged hours later when the line was rechecked by the opetator, when differeny lights in the farmhouse eere deitched on or off at different times during the operation, how two bodies were found downstairs in the kitchen upon entry by the raid team, and a further three bodies found updtairs which later somehow manifested itself into one body dow, four up, were all things which passed through the occupants of CA07 at the scene before they left the scene at about 9:30am...

Bofy of one desd male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide...

[Roch]

What are two police officers and one civilian doing, running back to the patrol car?  Why would a trick of the light on a window, in a back-lit room, with the moon on the other side of the building, cause these three people to run back to the patrol car?   I can understand some haste due to the urgency of the situation.

[gringo]

The role played by the occupants of CA07 at the scene once the firearms team arrived upon the scene at and from 5am, in the capacity of communications between the firearms team at the incident and the control room back at police headquarters, has never been properly explained or disclosed. Bews, Myall and Saxby, liased between officers at the scene and others elsewhere, and this was achoeved by one or other of them relaying messages back and forth. It therefore follows, that whatever they spoke about or relayed as a result of the all being in the firing linr, involved details of the person seen at the bedroom window, about why the dogs were barking before the arrival of the police and Jeremy, why the telephone which had its hanset off the cradle with line open at about 3:58am, should be engaged hours later when the line was rechecked by the opetator, when differeny lights in the farmhouse eere deitched on or off at different times during the operation, how two bodies were found downstairs in the kitchen upon entry by the raid team, and a further three bodies found updtairs which later somehow manifested itself into one body dow, four up, were all things which passed through the occupants of CA07 at the scene before they left the scene at about 9:30am...

Bofy of one desd male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide...

I have always felt that all at the farm that night were fully aware that it was a siege situation . There is a lot of evidence which suggests that this is the case and it makes less sense that the police waited until 7.30 to act unless they had reason not to ( ie. they knew there was at least one person alive in the farmhouse with firearms available )

[Roch]

I have always felt that all at the farm that night were fully aware that it was a siege situation . There is a lot of evidence which suggests that this is the case and it makes less sense that the police waited until 7.30 to act unless they had reason not to ( ie. they knew there was at least one person alive in the farmhouse with firearms available )

It also fits in with Bamber's knee-jerk reaction that the raid team were responsible for the deaths.  Fits perfectly.   That remark was not planned in any way whatsoever imo.  He lashed out precisely because there had been the impression that there were people still alive in the farmhouse, that all was not lost, that the situation was retrievable to some extent. 

[Nickos]

What are two police officers and one civilian doing, running back to the patrol car? 

Imagine JB saying "what was that" and triggering further fear? - it could have happenned 

Initially the "trick of the light" scenario could have represented in their fear riddled minds that some one was active; but as it turned out (who knows) it was a "trick of the light", as actually refferred to, and put to Bews, by Rivlin.

Bews did not initially use the phrase a "trick of the light" at trial; it was Rivlin (Defence Council for JB  )

Why would a trick of the light on a window, in a back-lit room, with the moon on the other side of the building, cause these three people to run back to the patrol car?   I can understand some haste due to the urgency of the situation.

See answer above.

Back-lit room? – Contentious  

[Roch]

Nickos, you've put your own words inside my quote.  According to Bews television interviews, it was Myall who first drew their attention to the window.  He then changed it to Bamber in a later television interview.

Given the inconsistencies in statements regarding which lights were on or off, it is not inconceivable that the window in question was back-lit. 

[Nickos]

Nickos, you've put your own words inside my quote.  According to Bews television interviews, it was Myall who first drew their attention to the window.  He then changed it to Bamber in a later television interview.

Given the inconsistencies in statements regarding which lights were on or off, it is not inconceivable that the window in question was back-lit.

Roch, do you agree that it was initially Rivlin at trial that put the phrase "trick of the light" to Bews?

Now why would an educated barrister such as Rivlin not say to Bews at trial, "could what I have just referred to as a trick of the light, and that you have just replied yes to, have ever been mistaken for that of a person being at, or passing by, the relevant window.

What if Rivlin had drawn Bews to say "well possibly!" - think of the ramifications of that??

It was Rivlin (JB's Defence Council) that first put this phrase to Bews; and has subsequently been used as an underming technique, by others, against Bews.

Bews may not be the sharpest tool in the box, but to use this phrase against him is misdirected imo

I think some ought to start with Rivlin!!

[Roch]

Roch, do you agree that it was initially Rivlin at trial that put the phrase "trick of the light" to Bews?

Now why would an educated barrister such as Rivlin not say to Bews at trial, "could what I have just referred to as a trick of the light, and that you have just replied yes to, have ever been mistaken for that of a person being at, or passing by, the relevant window.

What if Rivlin had drawn Bews to say "well possibly!" - think of the ramifications of that??

It was Rivlin (JB's Defence Council) that first put this phrase to Bews; and has subsequently been used as an underming technique, by others, against Bews.

Bews may not be the sharpest tool in the box, but to use this phrase against him is misdirected imo

I think some ought to start with Rivlin!!

I think that's a disingenuous approach.  Firstly, we do not know what was discussed behind the scenes pre-trial and during trial.  Could Rivlin have got wind of the likelihood that he would meet with a brick wall of denial if he pursued it? The defence had no documentary evidence of the sighting (according to the Hunter manuscript, it was only many years later and after the logs had came to light, with subsequent official requests made by the defence for the corresponding page of the logs relevant to this period, that the official response received from EP was that it has been 'misplaced').

Also, what has Bews done since trial, to deny or rectify a mistaken claim that he had indeed seen a trick of the light?  Has Bews tried to describe the incident in terms that would contradict the trick of the light scenario?

Regarding Bews testimony.  I'm not sure that it's fair to describe him as not the sharpest tool in the box.  However I think it's stretching it a bit to consider that he might have coughed up to a sighting of a person at the window.  He would have effectively been contradicting the entire thrust of the second investigation, its' aims and its' orchestration by powers considerably senior to him self. 

Wasn't that the very danger that DCI Taff Jones represented? 

[guest154]

Nickos, you've put your own words inside my quote.  According to Bews television interviews, it was Myall who first drew their attention to the window.  He then changed it to Bamber in a later television interview.

Given the inconsistencies in statements regarding which lights were on or off, it is not inconceivable that the window in question was back-lit.

Either way Roch, it has for twenty plus years been something small, a small detail that has alway sbeen called a trick of light. But like most things in the Bamber campaign - it suddenly over times becomes something MUCH bigger than it actually was as Bamber tries to create confusion.
Don't you see this at all?

[gringo]

Either way Roch, it has for twenty plus years been something small, a small detail that has alway sbeen called a trick of light. But like most things in the Bamber campaign - it suddenly over times becomes something MUCH bigger than it actually was as Bamber tries to create confusion.
Don't you see this at all?

Didn't the prosecution / police cause the confusion with their selective use of evidence ?