Dr. Ian Donaldson Craig 12-11-86

[maggie]

Clearly, for whatever reason, Dr. Craig was able to come to the conclusion that she was obviously deceased.

Well yes, apparently he could I am just giving an opinion as someone with a fair amount of experience in such situations and who has seen many doctors certify death.  I understand he was very experienced but I would have thought it unusual.  If as a nurse you call a doctor they attend and you tell them you found the person dumdedum etc and report no pulse or respiration etc.  you would still expect and a doctor still would feel pulse, listen to chest for heartbeat etc., shine light into eyes just in case. He is responsible for writing the death certificate and is therefore responsible for any mistakes made.  I am not attacking or accusing Dr Craig, I am just giving an opinion because of my own experience.

[lookout]

Well yes, apparently he could I am just giving an opinion as someone with a fair amount of experience in such situations and who has seen many doctors certify death.  I understand he was very experienced but I would have thought it unusual.  If as a nurse you call a doctor they attend and you tell them you found the person dumdedum etc and report no pulse or resperation etc.  you would still expect and a doctor still would feel pulse etc. just in case. He is responsoble for writing the death certificate and is therefore responsible for any mistakes made.  I am not attacking or accusing Dr Craig, I am just giving an opinion because of my own experience.

Maggie,when you think about it,,it's not as simple as it sounds to certify someone dead. The body just doesn't " die ",,,each organ in turn perishes,and as I said before,even though there's no pulse,doesn't mean a thing,as it's the brain that " kick-starts " the body into life when given CPR anyway,so being brain-dead,you can pretty well ascertain that that person is deceased.

[-Harters-]

Well yes, apparently he could I am just giving an opinion as someone with a fair amount of experience in such situations and who has seen many doctors certify death.  I understand he was very experienced but I would have thought it unusual.  If as a nurse you call a doctor they attend and you tell them you found the person dumdedum etc and report no pulse or resperation etc.  you would still expect and a doctor still would feel pulse etc. just in case. He is responsoble for writing the death certificate and is therefore responsible for any mistakes made.  I am not attacking or accusing Dr Craig, I am just giving an opinion because of my own experience.

No I didn't take it as you were and I've previously agreed with you that I'd have expected a more thorough examination to have been required, in order to certify death. Although I do not have any experience of such matters.

It may also be the case that Dr Craig was influenced in his assessment (in which he clearly came to the correct conclusion), by the information given to him by the police, the fact that they had been making challenges to the house in a siege situation for several hours without any sign of life (officially at least), and that the police had discovered Sheilas body some 45 (approx) minutes before Dr Craig arrived and witnessed to movement, even to a lay person, she was correctly assumed deceased.

[maggie]

No I didn't take it as you were and I've previously agreed with you that I'd have expected a more thorough examination to have been required, in order to certify death. Although I do not have any experience of such matters.

It may also be the case that Dr Craig was influenced in his assessment (in which he clearly came to the correct conclusion), by the information given to him by the police, the fact that they had been making challenges to the house in a siege situation for several hours without any sign of life (officially at least), and that the police had discovered Sheilas body some 45 (approx) minutes before Dr Craig arrived and witnessed to movement, even to a lay person, she was correctly assumed deceased.

I know Hartley....we just have to agree, that we find it strange.  As I say I would have thought he should have made at least rudimentary checks as police tho they may have some knowledge are neither trained or responsible for death certificates.  It's seems a little unprofessional...but again no accusation

[Nickos]

I still wonder, if as claimed by Hartley I think that the dr. didnt touch Sheila how could he be absolutely sure there were no signs of life? No one can look at a body and be certain without checking for slightest pulse etc. I have seen drs certify many deaths in the past. I have never seen a dr just look from a distance without some sort of even the most routine and basic test. imo

Hi mags, I agree that mistakes can be made, and if SC had entered a catatonic stupor then she may have looked dead.

Catatonia
Definition
Catatonia is a condition marked by changes in muscle tone or activity associated with a large number of serious mental and physical illnesses. There are two distinct sets of symptoms that are characteristic of this condition. In catatonic stupor the individual experiences a deficit of motor (movement) activity that can render him/her motionless. Catatonic excitement, or excessive movement, is associated with violent behaviour directed toward oneself or others.
Features of catatonia may also be seen in Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS) which is an uncommon (but potentially lethal) reaction to some medications used to treat major mental illnesses. NMS is considered a medical emergency since 25% of untreated cases result in death. Catatonia can also be present in individuals suffering from a number of other physical and emotional conditions such as drug intoxication, depression, and schizophrenia. It is most commonly associated with mood disorders.

(Catatonia can also be present in individuals suffering from a number of other physical and emotional conditions such as drug intoxication, depression, and schizophrenia. It is most commonly associated with mood disorders).

However; JB could still  have administered the first shot some time earlier, SC lived and that's why her blood may have still been wet when photographed!!

The second shot, even if accidental and possibly inflicted after Craig had seen her body, may show further EP incompetence, but it does not necessarily exonerate JB.

[maggie]

Hi mags, I agree that mistakes can be made, and if SC had entered a catatonic stupor then she may have looked dead.

Catatonia
Definition
Catatonia is a condition marked by changes in muscle tone or activity associated with a large number of serious mental and physical illnesses. There are two distinct sets of symptoms that are characteristic of this condition. In catatonic stupor the individual experiences a deficit of motor (movement) activity that can render him/her motionless. Catatonic excitement, or excessive movement, is associated with violent behaviour directed toward oneself or others.
Features of catatonia may also be seen in Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS) which is an uncommon (but potentially lethal) reaction to some medications used to treat major mental illnesses. NMS is considered a medical emergency since 25% of untreated cases result in death. Catatonia can also be present in individuals suffering from a number of other physical and emotional conditions such as drug intoxication, depression, and schizophrenia. It is most commonly associated with mood disorders.

(Catatonia can also be present in individuals suffering from a number of other physical and emotional conditions such as drug intoxication, depression, and schizophrenia. It is most commonly associated with mood disorders.

However; JB could still  have administered the first shot some time earlier, SC lived and that's why her blood may have still been wet when photographed!!

The second shot, even if accidental and possibly inflicted after Craig had seen her body, may show further EP incompetence, but it does not necessarily exonerate JB.

Yes, Nick you are right, there are many reasons why it seems odd.  It may however, have been the way it was done at that time.  Seems a bit hit and miss. imo

[-Harters-]

Yes, Nick you are right, there are many reasons why it seems odd.  It may however, have been the way it was done at that time.  Seems a bit hit and miss. imo

But his diagnosis of death, was correct, so whatever the perceived failings in his method were, he arrived at the correct conclusion.

If there was something which contradicts this and shows Sheila to have been alive at the time, then sure I could see the problem, but despite the claims from the likes of Mike, it's simply not the case.

[lookout]

I'm sure if someone was shooting me,,particularly if it was someone I knew,then I'd have mustered up enough strength to shout out the name,while the cops were there. So why didn't Sheila do that.? Why didn't she break a window with the rifle and shout down when she heard/saw the police cars.?
This has always baffled me. The first instinct is to try and get help however it's done.
There were enough windows to have got the attention of someone.
Or why didn't Sheila herself phone the police,there was an opportunity.
Perhaps the reasons were that she didn't need anyones' help.

[lookout]

If Sheila had " played dead ",then the opportunity would have been there to have told the police had anyone else been involved.

[Nickos]

Yes, Nick you are right, there are many reasons why it seems odd.  It may however, have been the way it was done at that time.  Seems a bit hit and miss. imo

Mags (or anyone), would you care to comment of the following bit of my earlier post?

"However; JB could still  have administered the first shot some time earlier, SC lived and that's why her blood may have still been wet when photographed!!

The second shot, even if accidental and possibly inflicted after Craig had seen her body, may show further EP incompetence, but it does not necessarily exonerate JB."

In my view EP incompetence does not = JB innocent.

[Roch]

Mags (or anyone), would you care to comment of the following bit of my earlier post?

"However; JB could still  have administered the first shot some time earlier, SC lived and that's why her blood may have still been wet when photographed!!

The second shot, even if accidental and possibly inflicted after Craig had seen her body, may show further EP incompetence, but it does not necessarily exonerate JB."

In my view EP incompetence does not = JB innocent.

I mentioned this recently but put it in a different way.  Nobody who veers towards guilt seems to have cottoned on to a scenario where both JB is the killer (responsible for first shot) and the police also bungle the raid.  I do not believe this my self but I do feel that among posters who veer towards guilt, there is an aversion to the concept of police corruption.  That might explain why nobody else seems to have been down this road.

[lookout]

Mags (or anyone), would you care to comment of the following bit of my earlier post?

"However; JB could still  have administered the first shot some time earlier, SC lived and that's why her blood may have still been wet when photographed!!

The second shot, even if accidental and possibly inflicted after Craig had seen her body, may show further EP incompetence, but it does not necessarily exonerate JB."

In my view EP incompetence does not = JB innocent.

Nickos,,why,after that first shot,didn't Sheila summon help.? There was ample time to have phoned for assistance if a domestic argument had boiled over into what it did.

Nobody summoned help initially that night because the occupants didn't think that the situation would warrant it,,and it must have been terrifying to see, and believe what they saw.

[-Harters-]

I mentioned this recently but put it in a different way.  Nobody who veers towards guilt seems to have cottoned on to a scenario where both JB is the killer (responsible for first shot) and the police also bungle the raid.  I do not believe this my self but I do feel that among posters who veer towards guilt, there is an aversion to the concept of police corruption.  That might explain why nobody else seems to have been down this road.

I think that's a bit unfair Roch, Nicks logic regarding this is quite sound in my opinion, although I don't accept the suggestion from you that there is an aversion of the concept of police corruption amongst people who have a view that Jeremy is guilty.

This isn't something that people haven't 'cottoned' on to at all, I don't accept the claims being made simply because they are unfounded and lacking in substance.

It has nothing to do with an aversion to police corruption, I'm not too naive to think to corruption within the police doesn't occur, but there is nothing which indicates to me that it has occurred in this case.

That's just speaking for myself of course. 

[Roch]

I think that's a bit unfair Roch, Nicks logic regarding this is quite sound in my opinion, although I don't accept the suggestion from you that there is an aversion of the concept of police corruption amongst people who have a view that Jeremy is guilty.

This isn't something that people haven't 'cottoned' on to at all, I don't accept the claims being made simply because they are unfounded and lacking in substance.

It has nothing to do with an aversion to police corruption, I'm not too naive to think to corruption within the police doesn't occur, but there is nothing which indicates to me that it has occurred in this case.

That's just speaking for myself of course. 

I do wonder if anything possibly could or would indicate to you that corruption had occurred.  I reserve the right to treat with a pinch of salt your alleged lack of aversion to the concept of police corruption or your stance that it does occur... but not in this case. Without wishing to offend, a cynic might suggest that denial of police corruption goes hand in hand with a stance in the case.  An acceptance of police corruption leads to the uncomfortable realisation of a need to readjust that stance. Therefore denial of corruption becomes a defensive crutch employed to avert the need to readjust a guilty stance.  All just my opinion.

[lookout]

Specsavers for you then,Jam.