Author Topic: A third version of events of 7th August 1985  (Read 18152 times)

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mertol22

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A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« on: August 03, 2012, 10:53:PM »
Despite what i have recently said in a topic im starting to draw a different version of events of that night i will leave two thoughts at the end of my post, im begining to think neither Jeremy or Sheila shot the family it may have been someone else, a murderer by average always returns to the scene of the crime, Scunthorpe has one unsolved murder from 1978, have both got away with it ?

Offline Patti

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2012, 11:24:PM »
Despite what i have recently said in a topic im starting to draw a different version of events of that night i will leave two thoughts at the end of my post, im begining to think neither Jeremy or Sheila shot the family it may have been someone else, a murderer by average always returns to the scene of the crime, Scunthorpe has one unsolved murder from 1978, have both got away with it ?

Mertol :)

I have often thought the same. But wouldn't that indicate that JB would have hired a hit man like JM said he did?

If someone else did the crime then the phone call from NB was faked and this then implicates JB.

It would also mean of course that if JM was right, then Sheila would have taken the gun from the killer and shot herself, for this is how JM describes it....Did she not say that JB had told her that she was told to lie down and shoot herself. Of course she took the rifle laid down and shot herself, it stands to reason....She never give a fight and sat there whilst the killer murdered her family and her children...

I know where you are coming from Mertol....it's the man seen in the lane that CC mentions in his book....no investigation was done....Zilch! ...

I am off my friend before I fall asleep....Ni nights... :) :) :) :) :)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:25:PM by Patti »

Offline Patti

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2012, 11:29:PM »
I'm back...

It could also mean that NB was forced into making a call to JB, in order to get him to come to the farm...Maybe he was supposed to be victim number 6....but the plot could have failed, for JB called the police....This could also be the reason NB has burn marks on his back, due to being forced to make that call....It might not be as far fetched as some think it might be... :) :) :)

mertol22

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2012, 11:41:PM »
Hi Patti i was  just about to go too, i see in threads jeremy made the fatal mistake of telling the police about the call from NB, jeremy must have prior phoned Nevill hundreds of times so he knew his voice why is it so difficult to trace the 2 police night duty officers that night jeremy called, every police station officers now and then clock in.

Offline Moe Cassani

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 03:22:AM »
I'm back...

It could also mean that NB was forced into making a call to JB, in order to get him to come to the farm...Maybe he was supposed to be victim number 6....but the plot could have failed, for JB called the police....This could also be the reason NB has burn marks on his back, due to being forced to make that call....It might not be as far fetched as some think it might be... :) :) :)
Not possible I am afraid. The blood evidence does not support this. There was no blood on the phone whatsover - quite impossible when you consider the nature of Nevill's wounds. Nevil was shot and wounded upstairs and the blood trail leads only to the kitchen counter - not to the phone. Nevil Bamber did NOT phone Jeremy.
Moreover, the burn marks may have been left there by the killer 'prodding' the body to make sure he was dead. The burn marks were on or just below the nape of the neck - the very area that was exposed once Nevill's head had fallen into the coal scuttle.

Offline tyler

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 07:43:AM »
Not possible I am afraid. The blood evidence does not support this. There was no blood on the phone whatsover - quite impossible when you consider the nature of Nevill's wounds. Nevil was shot and wounded upstairs and the blood trail leads only to the kitchen counter - not to the phone. Nevil Bamber did NOT phone Jeremy.
Moreover, the burn marks may have been left there by the killer 'prodding' the body to make sure he was dead. The burn marks were on or just below the nape of the neck - the very area that was exposed once Nevill's head had fallen into the coal scuttle.
Not possible?Rubbish! There only seems to be evidence that Nevill was shot on the stairs and this was possibly the arm shot? His other arm would have been uninjured and therefore not bloody.Also,there is no evidence whatsoever that Nevill had been shot/injured at all at the time he made alleged phone call to JB.

Offline tyler

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 07:48:AM »
I'm back...

It could also mean that NB was forced into making a call to JB, in order to get him to come to the farm...Maybe he was supposed to be victim number 6....but the plot could have failed, for JB called the police....This could also be the reason NB has burn marks on his back, due to being forced to make that call....It might not be as far fetched as some think it might be... :) :) :)
Hi Patti.Many of us have considered this scenario before.It has its problems in the fact that a third party would surely have brought along his own weapon and would need to know how to get in/out of whf.In my opinion this would narrow it down to possibly being one of the relatives.But we musnt go there!

Offline mike tesko

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 08:00:AM »
Not possible?Rubbish! There only seems to be evidence that Nevill was shot on the stairs and this was possibly the arm shot? His other arm would have been uninjured and therefore not bloody.Also,there is no evidence whatsoever that Nevill had been shot/injured at all at the time he made alleged phone call to JB.

This is correct - no evidence that Ralph had been shot at all in the bedroom, except by the displacement of additional bullet cases which came later when police manufactured a case to enable them to prosecute Jeremy for the murders, rather than have to admit what they did at the scene involving the circumstances of how Sheila came to end up dead in the bedroom on the bedroom floor. If Ralph was shot whilst in the main bedroom, there would at least have been a microscopic drip of blood found there belonging exclusively to him, but sadly there was / is none, so it is all speculation when anybody says Ralph was shot in the bedroom. I am inclined to believe or accept that Ralph could have been shot as he was running or making his way down the main stairs, or as the case may be, if he was attempting to get back upstairs after hearing further shots after he made his calls to Jeremy and the police, near to the front of the premises. The only thing we or anybody can be certain about is that Ralph was shot and killed in the kitchen, but again it is not possible to say that he was shot at all by the time he made the calls to Jeremy or the police? However, it does appear to be the case that at some stage Ralphs bloodied hand / fingers did leave marks on the edge of the kitchen worktop within striking distance of the telephone handset which was photographed off its cradle and resting upon the kitchen worktop near to where loose .22 bullets had been tipped out of their box?

There were also multiple spots of blood on that part of the kitchen floor which are / were consistent with whoever was standing there gripping the edge of the kitchen worktop was dripping blood from that injured hand / arm on to the floor beneath - so worse case scenario from a defence perspective I am prepared to accept that Ralph could have had at least one wound inflicted upon his arm by the time he made the calls to Jeremy and the police, although this wound could just as easily occurred later on, before the police first arrived at the scene at about 3;48am (or later)...

What you have got to remember is that the police would have seen and been aware of this evidence when they were treating the case (SC/688/85) as four murders and a suicide, when they were convinced Sheila was the shooter, and you have to ask yourselves why the prosecution did not seek to rely upon any of this evidence to support its case against Jeremy during his trial back in October 1986, or since? Police must have accepted from an early stage that Ralph did make the calls to Jeremy and to the police, irrespective of whether or not he was already wounded once in one arm?



« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 08:07:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Patti

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 12:24:PM »
Not possible I am afraid. The blood evidence does not support this. There was no blood on the phone whatsover - quite impossible when you consider the nature of Nevill's wounds. Nevil was shot and wounded upstairs and the blood trail leads only to the kitchen counter - not to the phone. Nevil Bamber did NOT phone Jeremy.
Moreover, the burn marks may have been left there by the killer 'prodding' the body to make sure he was dead. The burn marks were on or just below the nape of the neck - the very area that was exposed once Nevill's head had fallen into the coal scuttle.

Hi Moe

There is not one scrap of evidence that NB was shot when he made a phone call. Alls I am saying is that he could have been forced to make that call....by the nozzle of the gun in his back...The call lasted all but a couple of seconds. Never assume that NB was stood up when he made that call...he could have been seated.

In fact JB himself said in his first statement that he was sure he said Sheila, but because the call was a quick one, he admits he could have said "SHE and not SHEILA.  Thus, of course would indicate June having the rifle and not Sheila.....June looks more likely to have walked through a crime scene than Sheila...Not only is her night dress covered in blood, but she also has back spatter on her nightie....but, I wont go there, for its all very complicated and in all fairness many theories will arise from the crime scene , because no one knows the full facts as to what happened that night...it's not so straight forward is it... :) :) :) :)

Offline Patti

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 12:42:PM »
Hi Patti.Many of us have considered this scenario before.It has its problems in the fact that a third party would surely have brought along his own weapon and would need to know how to get in/out of whf.In my opinion this would narrow it down to possibly being one of the relatives.But we musnt go there!

Hi Tyler that is right.  And we must always remember that the windows were thoroughly examined between the 8th and the 10th of September and there was no forensic evidence of anyone entering or exiting out of any window at WHF.

It is also documented that RWC took the catch from the downstairs bathroom window on the 27th of September, exhibit RWC/8

Elliot's forensic team also find a catch on the downstairs bathroom window on the 1st of October....which was scratched underneath.  How could this be possible when the catch had already been taken by RWC??????????  Did RWC replace the catch in order to make that window safe with another catch? Why was this not found on the 8th of September?

Complicated though it may seem, but there is something wrong with this evidence..... :) :) :) :)

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 07:09:PM »
We may all be embarking upon a quest for some third way which will exculpate Jeremy from his tag as mass murderer,something which will exonerate him from that terrible scene of carnage which awaited any entrant into the farm that morning,that personage who had transgressed the rights of five people to continue to live,an elderly couple who had earned their right to a relaxing and contented retirement,their daughter who was coping as best she could with mental illness and her twins who just sought affection from any quarter and whose bleak sombre crayon drawings depicted the atmosphere they felt at the farm as only small children can.

How convenient it would be for all for an intruder to have permeated the property in the early hours of August 6,a thief perhaps with an eye to the main chance,or just looking for items to steal to get his next fix of barbiturates. Indeed it is possible that this is what first crossed the mind of Nevill,the man of the household who had assumed and gloried in this role over decades,as he was frogmarched downstairs by an interloper he possibly thought he could deal with,and who managed to hide his bloodstained watch under the rug in the thought that this burglar would steal items of a similar nature and then depart.

 He entered the house the way he had often done,bypassing both main entrances,and if anyone found any traces well,he had used that way only the day before when he was larking about with the twins,and who was to know whether this was true or not. As for not using the normal ingress,well he was a cuckoo in the nest anyhow-how often had he been told this by friend,foe,and relative alike.But Jeremy was no ordinary cuckoo,for he was going to assume full power over the nest,the home which was rightfully his.

Whether Jeremy was facially disguised was a moot point. To all intents and purposes he wore dark clothing possibly with a balaclava,which made it easier as he cycled  over the flat moonless terrain towards his birthright. All he need do was to bark one instruction to Nevill to go downstairs,and make a telephone call. The rest would be easy. He would shoot the twins as they slept,emancipating both them from a life dominated by disturbed matriarchs and Colin who would be able to start afresh,unfettered with the issue of his insane sister,whom he would use as subterfuge,so that he too could start a new life away from his ersatz family, away from the tittle tattle of Essex country bumpkins and away from farming. His last recollection of his sick mother would be shooting her right between the eyes as he took aim and recollected all those years of religious zealotry which acted as June’s self-defence mechanism as well as erecting a barrier between any meaningful mutual communication.. No worries if Nevill put up a fight:he would humiliate this man who so often had humiliated him with his jibes of effeminacy,by making him lower his pants and mocking Nevill with the epithet of impotence,before the final four shots,then the poker heated in the Aga to gauge whether this magistrate had finally achieved justice thrust upon him.

As Sheila went to her death like a lamb to the slaughter,ignorant of the fate of her twin sons and hence no tears on that calm,serene,almost blasé facial expression,Jeremy tossed the bible onto the carpet,a  symbol that represented everything he despised,the lectures,the sermons,the hymns at Gresham's,the abuse possibly perpetrated by a teacher under the guise of a religious fervour,the Bible lay dormant on the ground along with his mortal sister,a sign that existentialism had triumphed in a soul which may yet one day be redeemed as the decades pass inexorably and materialism becomes no longer all-consuming and the goodness which if latent in some yet existing in all of us, prevails.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 07:15:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Jane

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 07:30:PM »
We may all be embarking upon a quest for some third way which will exculpate Jeremy from his tag as mass murderer,something which will exonerate him from that terrible scene of carnage which awaited any entrant into the farm that morning,that personage who had transgressed the rights of five people to continue to live,an elderly couple who had earned their right to a relaxing and contented retirement,their daughter who was coping as best she could with mental illness and her twins who just sought affection from any quarter and whose bleak sombre crayon drawings depicted the atmosphere they felt at the farm as only small children can.

How convenient it would be for all for an intruder to have permeated the property in the early hours of August 6,a thief perhaps with an eye to the main chance,or just looking for items to steal to get his next fix of barbiturates. Indeed it is possible that this is what first crossed the mind of Nevill,the man of the household who had assumed and gloried in this role over decades,as he was frogmarched downstairs by an interloper he possibly thought he could deal with,and who managed to hide his bloodstained watch under the rug in the thought that this burglar would steal items of a similar nature and then depart.

 He entered the house the way he had often done,bypassing both main entrances,and if anyone found any traces well,he had used that way only the day before when he was larking about with the twins,and who was to know whether this was true or not. As for not using the normal ingress,well he was a cuckoo in the nest anyhow-how often had he been told this by friend,foe,and relative alike.But Jeremy was no ordinary cuckoo,for he was going to assume full power over the nest,the home which was rightfully his.

Whether Jeremy was facially disguised was a moot point. To all intents and purposes he wore dark clothing possibly with a balaclava,which made it easier as he cycled  over the flat moonless terrain towards his birthright. All he need do was to bark one instruction to Nevill to go downstairs,and make a telephone call. The rest would be easy. He would shoot the twins as they slept,emancipating both them from a life dominated by disturbed matriarchs and Colin who would be able to start afresh,unfettered with the issue of his insane sister,whom he would use as subterfuge,so that he too could start a new life away from his ersatz family, away from the tittle tattle of Essex country bumpkins and away from farming. His last recollection of his sick mother would be shooting her right between the eyes as he took aim and recollected all those years of religious zealotry which acted as June’s self-defence mechanism as well as erecting a barrier between any meaningful mutual communication.. No worries if Nevill put up a fight:he would humiliate this man who so often had humiliated him with his jibes of effeminacy,by making him lower his pants and mocking Nevill with the epithet of impotence,before the final four shots,then the poker heated in the Aga to gauge whether this magistrate had finally achieved justice thrust upon him.

As Sheila went to her death like a lamb to the slaughter,ignorant of the fate of her twin sons and hence no tears on that calm,serene,almost blasé facial expression,Jeremy tossed the bible onto the carpet,a  symbol that represented everything he despised,the lectures,the sermons,the hymns at Gresham's,the abuse possibly perpetrated by a teacher under the guise of a religious fervour,the Bible lay dormant on the ground along with his mortal sister,a sign that existentialism had triumphed in a soul which may yet one day be redeemed as the decades pass inexorably and materialism becomes no longer all-consuming and the goodness which if latent in some yet existing in all of us, prevails.

Those words carry so much venom, it's more than possible to believe them to be either those of whoever held the gun, or a Victorian fire and brimstone vicar.

Offline Patti

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 07:36:PM »
Sorry Steve you miss some important factors out, that make it impossible for anyone to entered and left that building that night. To even contemplate that JB or a third party was involved you have to prove entry and exit points....Sorry, but this is so well documented that the CCRC and even the CPS have failed to examine this documented evidence thoroughly.  :) :) :)

Hi Tyler that is right.  And we must always remember that the windows were thoroughly examined between the 8th and the 10th of September and there was no forensic evidence of anyone entering or exiting out of any window at WHF.

It is also documented that RWC took the catch from the downstairs bathroom window on the 27th of September, exhibit RWC/8

Elliot's forensic team also find a catch on the downstairs bathroom window on the 1st of October....which was scratched underneath.  How could this be possible when the catch had already been taken by RWC?  Did RWC replace the catch in order to make that window safe with another catch? Why was this not found on the 8th of September?

Complicated though it may seem, but there is something wrong with this evidence.....   
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 07:41:PM by Patti »

Offline Bridget

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 07:39:PM »
Did you ever get  an answer on the window catch thing other than an acknowledgement?
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Patti

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Re: A third version of events of 7th August 1985
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 07:43:PM »
Did you ever get  an answer on the window catch thing other than an acknowledgement?

No Bridget....it may be that is has no significance and it already been addressed.  :) :) :)